Reflect Piercing nukes. How should they be changed?

[Vinkera]

So, the past few days, Digitalbath and I have been visiting the Soldier forums.

Our goals there were to accomplish two things:

1. Address common NT misconceptions, related to how Offensive and Defensive functions differ, and the limitations associated with them.

2. Acknowledge a common complaint I've been seeing lately, specifically from Soldiers regarding Reflect Piercing nukes.

After a nice chat with some of them there, we've come to a rather general consensus that if we have this very powerful tool to use against Soldiers, NT's should be the only ones that benefit from it.

You can reference our discussion, and I would ask that anyone with an opinion very negative towards the situation please read the thread and consider both sides before posting. This is a very powerful tool that could use a little honing to make it right.

http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...-staying-power

Please discuss, and let's find a solution we can agree on, and is plausible to create/adjust for the developers. I'd like to hear from Spartanx9, Doniger, and the other Soldiers that were posting there, also, as I value your input and perspective on this.

[nanoforcer]

There has to be a way to single out stuff like damage from a unique player and handle it, perhaps use the id of the player or something, its a programing issue so michi just has to be creative about it to make it work :-)

[Commando]

Increase the Duration of Pierce Reflect to 3 Seconds, that way NTs can still do something while It's active.
When it is cast, the target cannot be hit by Pierce Reflect again for 15 Sec. (Average Special Attack recharge)
That way NT's get the feeling of having a special attack without having it.. and soldiers gets breathing space to heal a little bit.

[Vinkera]

For reasons I've outlined in the linked thread, that idea is not plausible.

[Spartanx9]

Depending on how easy the code was to do, the most obvious solution would be to tie to the NT that casted the nuke, similar to how Colossus Smash works for Warriors in WoW. Link Only the NT should benefit from it, not everyone else.

2nd option would be to tie it to a specific damage type, change the nukes and the pierce to that specific damage type and be done with that.

3rd option, and while it may not be an option, but I'd figured i might mention it anyways, is also increasing the damage done by the % that is being reflected. I don't know how viable it is to be honest, and it may just be even a bad suggestion.

For Example, if someone was using RRFE and you nuked them, the damage would go up by 30%, 75% for TMS, 80% for AMS 4, and pierce with no extra damage if someone was bringing up their reflect to 100%. I'm not sure if it should be coded for every single possible reflect amount that would be possible, since that would be a lot of work to do, or just adjust it to certain thresholds that should be the norm for reflects. I'm mostly just throwing this out here for another suggestion, but i feel that it isn't the greatest, nor the most feasible as it would require adding a lot of conditionals for it to work.

[Damtaz]

I feel the soldiers pain, however i don't see any "poor" NT threads about how we lose offense and defense when traders drain our nano or when NSD'd by MP's. Everyone can attack us at those times. How about chain stuns from shades, really unfair let's nerf them!! Just because we are stunned doesn't stop others from hitting us. The only possible solution i can see is lowering the time on pierce reflect, maybe 0.5 sec? 0.25? that way someone would really have to time it.

[DigitalBath]

Damtaz's point makes me see this situation somewhat differently and makes me wonder if a solution should be found directly within the soldier's toolset rather than applying a change to the NT's..

There's two sides to this and they should be carefully considered before making any changes.

The NT side - Is Pierce Reflect so uniquely damaging compared to any other form of debuff/stun/root/snare that it should only benefit the casting NT? I'd say it heavily depends on the situation, since while it does uniquely disable a soldier's primary defense on command, so does a decently applied stun (or NSD) to a NT. Where is the line for "too much" drawn?

The Soldier side, where an Offensive Focus NT alone is hard (but not impossible) to kill.. but if the NT happens to bring anyone along then the Soldier's dead meat.
This must feel hard, especially given how fast everything happens and how little understanding of a NT's toolset many players still have.

Is this enough to warrant a nerf to a part of a toolset that already implies sacrifices to use and, on top of that, was recently nerfed in power? (speaking only about the doubles being reduced in damage, here. Our alpha was made stronger, but against a soldier our alpha isn't as important as getting the whole HP bar down before we run out of nano from Aegis's Damage to Nano).

Would it be better to find a way to bolster a soldier's defenses? The changes to AMS on Testlive are a good start, I'm sure. I can't wait to test those properly in a BS scenario to see how things go.

Do discuss, keep suggestions and ideas floating about.

[sultryvoltron]

The NT side - Is Pierce Reflect so uniquely damaging compared to any other form of debuff/stun/root/snare that it should only benefit the casting NT? I'd say it heavily depends on the situation, since while it does uniquely disable a soldier's primary defense on command, so does a decently applied stun (or NSD) to a NT. Where is the line for "too much" drawn?

I seriously disagree with this comparison.
Pierce Reflect is a side effect of a damage nuke. It is not a nuke that you cast in order to pierce reflects. The LE piercing nukes were designed to do full damage in all circumstances, with a side effect of completely removing reflects for a certain duration. At the very core, the nano is cast in order to deal maximum damage, not to debuff reflects. The side effect is where most people take issue with the nano. It is a bloated mechanic to simultaneously deal damage that ignores PvP caps and provide a debuff that benefits others attacking more than the NT.

A stun or NSD is a specifically selected and timed debuff that is intended to prevent the defense (or offense) of the target. The primary use of the nano is the effect, and it does not do any damage (specifically talking about Nanos here, there's no reason to muddy the discussion with perks).



I think the best approach is to find a way to maintain the balance while reducing the side effect of piercing nukes.

[Cratertina]

Reducr piercing effect to 1 second, should be sexy.

[DigitalBath]

Reducr piercing effect to 1 second, should be sexy.

It's already at 1second, though. Not sure it becomes reliable at a lesser amount but it's worth trying half a second if possible.

@Sultryvultron: I understand your disagreement but I'll have to agree to disagree on this one. NT's already sacrifice a lot to use doubles on their end to begin with (Nullity Sphere is a fairly huge loss, I'm sure you agree). The "intent" is to both do damage AND pierce reflects when you use them, otherwise IU would be used and we'd choose Def focus.

Note that I'm not totally opposed to changing Pierce Reflect to, for example, affect only the type of damage the NT is dealing (radiation, these days). It still won't really save you from 3-4 people + a NT killing you. Nothing will and that's fair because you're fighting heavily outnumbered.

But for that same reason, finding a solution within the Soldier's toolset may actually be better for the soldier in the end.

[sultryvoltron]

I'm having a thought here... It might sound a bit crazy, so bear with me.
Dota2 just recently introduced an item that reflects the effect of targeted spells back at the caster.

Perhaps that is what soldiers need... Kind of like a Wabafet from Pokemon. Two separate abilities that lock each other out, one to reflect damage, and one to reflect effects. Increase the damage returned on AMS and make the new nano reflect the effect of the nano cast on you.

So an soldier sees an NT and has to choose to cast AMS to stop the damage (takes no or little damage, but get his reflects ripped off and now others have a window to kill him) or cast BMS to stop the reflect ripping but still take full damage (the NT gets his own reflects ripped off if he has any). Expand this to other professions, you could make an MP NSD itself or make an Agent root itself or a Doc UBT itself.

[DigitalBath]

I'm having a thought here... It might sound a bit crazy, so bear with me.
Dota2 just recently introduced an item that reflects the effect of targeted spells back at the caster.

Perhaps that is what soldiers need... Kind of like a Wabafet from Pokemon. Two separate abilities that lock each other out, one to reflect damage, and one to reflect effects. Increase the damage returned on AMS and make the new nano reflect the effect of the nano cast on you.

So an soldier sees an NT and has to choose to cast AMS to stop the damage (takes no or little damage, but get his reflects ripped off and now others have a window to kill him) or cast BMS to stop the reflect ripping but still take full damage (the NT gets his own reflects ripped off if he has any). Expand this to other professions, you could make an MP NSD itself or make an Agent root itself or a Doc UBT itself.

Not sure how that fits within the Soldier toolset and profession design as it honestly sounds like more of a Trader thing, but I get the idea and how it would help Soldiers.
It may be a bit too powerful, depending on how it's implemented, as the Soldier could severely impair a whole team of attackers who try debuffing at the same time. Maybe some sort of CC Blocker mechanic would fit in better?

On another hand, both seem like hell (maybe even impossible?) to implement within AO's fairly limited nano "scripting", but I may be wrong on this. Maybe someone with more knowledge on that could chip in.. or even Michizure.

[sultryvoltron]

Not sure how that fits within the Soldier toolset and profession design as it honestly sounds like more of a Trader thing, but I get the idea and how it would help Soldiers.
It may be a bit too powerful, depending on how it's implemented, as the Soldier could severely impair a whole team of attackers who try debuffing at the same time. Maybe some sort of CC Blocker mechanic would fit in better?

On another hand, both seem like hell (maybe even impossible?) to implement within AO's fairly limited nano "scripting", but I may be wrong on this. Maybe someone with more knowledge on that could chip in.. or even Michizure.

You gotta start big!
And I do think it's this sort of an out-of-the-box idea that soldiers need. The entire soldier paradigm of high AR, big gun, shoot many bullets is undeniably flawed because of the way evades work in AO.

[DigitalBath]

You gotta start big!
And I do think it's this sort of an out-of-the-box idea that soldiers need. The entire soldier paradigm of high AR, big gun, shoot many bullets is undeniably flawed because of the way evades work in AO.

Worth nothing that NT's who gear for evades only have, with alphas, ac/dc, etc., under 3k static evades for the most part, made up of 1.7-2k evades and 800-1000 AAD.
We seem stronger than we actually are.. for 25 seconds at a time anyway.

Keep the ideas coming though. Out of the box, unusual stuff can help soldiers a lot. I tried out the taunt / light aoe dmg grenades on Testlive.. while dangerous in some situations it's bound to be a huge success both when tanking stuff with adds *and* when doing something like an APF with plenty of adds to pewpew.
Don't think it'll be of much use in PvP (unless it brings others out of stealth.. in which case it needs a touch-up ), but it's just an example of new things Michizure is bringing that are veeery much welcome.

[toastyking]

*Edit*
I realized this post wasn't as clear as I would have liked it to be. What I'm thinking is something like the following:

1.) Add a new damage type called 'Technological' (or anything really, doesn't matter). The only attacks ingame that cause tech damage are the NT reflect piercing nukes.
2.) shorten the duration on the 'pierce' debuff so much that it only really allows time for the piercing nuke itself to be let through. Alter the debuff so that the only damage that is allowed to pierce is tech damage. Prevent the debuff from showing in an NCU window. And sustaining tech damage causes the pierce debuff to cancel.

This of course isn't an ideal solution in that I don't fully know the difficulty associated with putting a new damage type ingame and having to update all of the necessary items/nanos, etc. But assuming that isn't too much of a hurdle to jump over, this might be a reasonably workable solution to the problem, or at least a place to start a discussion about something more feasible.

[xSoldier]

Worth nothing that NT's who gear for evades only have, with alphas, ac/dc, etc., under 3k static evades for the most part, made up of 1.7-2k evades and 800-1000 AAD.

I think you underestimating the values of your static def because as I experience in regular fights with nts is that their def will cut our fas and bursts short. Even in offense build with 3590 ar I still miss a lot and does not get regular high fas.

[DigitalBath]

I think you underestimating the values of your static def because as I experience in regular fights with nts is that their def will cut our fas and bursts short. Even in offense build with 3590 ar I still miss a lot and does not get regular high fas.

How much FA skill? FA landing is not, to my knowledge, affected by your AR but by the FA skill itself. I'm unsure if AAO is added to it or not but I would happily test it with someone who'd have the required time and gear swaps on live or on test.

As for me.. I'm actually being generous and making room for anything I may have missed, including the edge a sided token board would give me.

My values are, self-buffed in my usual "i'm going to BS" mode:

Evade-ClsC - 1796
Dodge-Rng - 1956
Duck-Exp - 1891
AAD - 895
Nano Damage Modifier: +47%

If I add the +25 AAD from having a defense board that's, at most, 2876 static def.

I could squeeze it a bit further but I would either lose MC or %dmg that I feel wouldn't be worth losing at this point.

[Commando]

Make the Reflect ammount depend on how much Nano the NT have left.

90% Nano = -90% reflect removal
60% Nano = -60% reflect removal
10% Nano = -10% reflect removal
Etc..

[Vinkera]

Make the Reflect ammount depend on how much Nano the NT have left.

90% Nano = -90% reflect removal
60% Nano = -60% reflect removal
10% Nano = -10% reflect removal
Etc..

Again, that's not a very realistic suggestion.

A general statement... Let me be clear, we're not asking for our own profession to be nerfed. We're open for suggestions on an issue brought up by others. We're not sympathizing with Soldiers, we're acknowledging their complaint, and brainstorming alternatives that are reasonable and realistic.

Please keep that in mind when posting.

[Wakizaka]

How much FA skill? FA landing is not, to my knowledge, affected by your AR but by the FA skill itself. I'm unsure if AAO is added to it or not but I would happily test it with someone who'd have the required time and gear swaps on live or on test.

Full Auto AR is calculated as follows
[(Weapon Skill + Full Auto Skill) / 2] + Add All Offence.

For example, in the case of my AR solja it'll be
[(2823 + 2399) / 2] + 815 => 3426