Reflect Piercing nukes. How should they be changed?

[DigitalBath]

Full Auto AR is calculated as follows
[(Weapon Skill + Full Auto Skill) / 2] + Add All Offence.

For example, in the case of my AR solja it'll be
[(2823 + 2399) / 2] + 815 => 3426

Thanks for the clarification, Waki!

[Cdogg421]

that 20k nano hit could be 100k and it would not matter, all a doc needs to do is stim while spamming the heal key to get a heal off, perks can carry through the rest of the dmg. and with the SL nukes getting their cast time back (because they were -so- deadly) ubt will hamper dmg that much more. and i don't like the reflect % based on current nano either, it's a good idea but to much of a nerf, would just about halve our dmg with a burst+FA from the soldier.

personally i like the idea of making ACs do more and giving soldiers a temporary extremely high AC buff to help defend against such hard hitting attacks. have it be a deploy able item like the engie BS mines to give it some balance, that way the sol has to stay inside it's influence to make use of it (like 3-5m range from the item on the ground), the soldier could then be pulled out of it by keepers or feared out of it. also give it 100% root/snare resist while inside it so the sol can't just be rooted there until it runs out. 20-30s duration with a 5-7m lockout seems fair to me.

[DigitalBath]

I believe i have quotes from all your posts.


I still stick to my opinion that Positive changes are not the only changes thats good. Which is relevant to this thread as the suggestions was about this threads Topic "Reflect Piercing nukes. How should they be changed?".

Agreed that it have run a bit off course.. so we can stop at that.
Beware of my opinion elsewhere! hehe

I'll just step in and remind you that Vinkera suggested and/or was on board with the removal of Triples, of the blind EFFECT that was annoying people so much (and some perks still have it, which makes this unfair for NT's at this point!) and the nerfing of Doubles' damage.
Did you even know that doubles have been nerfed in damage?

personally i like the idea of making ACs do more and giving soldiers a temporary extremely high AC buff to help defend against such hard hitting attacks. have it be a deploy able item like the engie BS mines to give it some balance, that way the sol has to stay inside it's influence to make use of it (like 3-5m range from the item on the ground), the soldier could then be pulled out of it by keepers or feared out of it. also give it 100% root/snare resist while inside it so the sol can't just be rooted there until it runs out. 20-30s duration with a 5-7m lockout seems fair to me.

I really like the way you're thinking here. I would love to explore a solution more related to AC's and how they work, maybe even add a slight temp boost to nano-resist so there's a chance they'll resist (or we have to use CB1 which will use up valuable Aegis time). Nothing too AMG OP, but it would effectively help soldiers out quite a bit, while making them quite unique in PvP.

[sultryvoltron]

What about just changing Pierce Reflect to only reduce reflects by 50% instead of 100%?

This changes has absolutely no effect on most professions (still punches through RRFE/similar). It has some effect on other NTs using defensive focus in the favor of def, an even smaller effect on soldiers running AMS in their favor, and even less of an effect on Traders using Borrow Reflect + RRFE. Actually how does BR even work anymore? It looks like it doesn't do ****...

So in the end the soldier blocks 31% of the damage while running AMS instead of 0% so you do (roughly calculated numbers here) 9,000 damage from one rotation of Tactical + Double + GIVA instead of 13000.

[Vinkera]

What about just changing Pierce Reflect to only reduce reflects by 50% instead of 100%?

This changes has absolutely no effect on most professions (still punches through RRFE/similar). It has some effect on other NTs using defensive focus in the favor of def, an even smaller effect on soldiers running AMS in their favor, and even less of an effect on Traders using Borrow Reflect + RRFE. Actually how does BR even work anymore? It looks like it doesn't do ****...

So in the end the soldier blocks 31% of the damage while running AMS instead of 0% so you do (roughly calculated numbers here) 9,000 damage from one rotation of Tactical + Double + GIVA instead of 13000.

I could see that working.

Maybe an adjustment to DTN ratio would be needed, but that would certainly lengthen fights and give players more time to think.

I'll let Digital comment on that.

[Commando]

I'll just step in and remind you that Vinkera suggested and/or was on board with the removal of Triples, of the blind EFFECT that was annoying people so much (and some perks still have it, which makes this unfair for NT's at this point!) and the nerfing of Doubles' damage.
Did you even know that doubles have been nerfed in damage?

The double nuke got changed from 3000-5750 X2 to 3000-5500 X2.
If you manage to max both, that is a 500 damage removal (250 in PVP). Which is not much of a change, also to consider that the tactical nuke hits a few seconds after cast, so you can manage to cast double at the same time the tactical nuke hits, which makes it even more OP as you now can deal over:

3000-5500 (Izgimmer's Double)
3000-5500 (Izgimmer's Double)
4500-6500 (Izgimmer's Tactical Nuke)
10500-17500 (PVP: 5250-8750) Damage In one second!
This is the damage they do rapidly.

Thats with no reflect of any kind to decrease it AND not counting in damage bonuses from damage and nano damage.
Not counting in perks and DOT's. Damage nanos also have def checks of Around 50-90%.
Not to mention another instacast "Garuk's Viral Assault" Damage at 2300 MC (10400 to 14800.)(PVP: 5200-7400)


NT are the main nano damage profession but the damage they do in PVP at the moment is a bit OP. If they changed the def checks or redid the reflect removal it would be nice to see how NTs would do.

[Commando]

What about just changing Pierce Reflect to only reduce reflects by 50% instead of 100%?

I would love to see that in action, it would give soldiers a lot better survival chance during AMS.

[DigitalBath]

The double nuke got changed from 3000-5750 X2 to 3000-5500 X2.
If you manage to max both, that is a 500 damage removal (250 in PVP). Which is not much of a change, also to consider that the double nuke hits a few seconds after cast, so you can manage to cast another damage nano at the same time, which makes it even more OP as you now can deal over:


Thats with no reflect of any kind to decrease it AND not counting in damage bonuses from damage and nano damage.
Not counting in perks and DOT's. Damage nanos also have def checks of Around 50-70%.


NT are the main nano damage profession but the damage they do in PVP at the moment is a bit OP. If they changed the def checks or redid the reflect removal it would be nice to see how NTs would do.

Are you confusing the newly implemented delayed nukes with the Doubles, here? The double hits INSTANTLY after cast.
Seriously, the amount of misinformation here is insane.

EDIT:

I find it hard to believe you're not trolling as some of your information is way off.

The nukes used by a Offensive Focus NT at 220 are mainly ITN, Doubles and Garuk's (there's more but.. mainly). They have respectable damage and two have Pierce Reflect as we drop a huge amount of defense to be able to use the first two.

For future reference:

The def checks are NOT 50-70%. ITN has 90%, Doubles 90%, Garuk's 75%. Garuk's doesn't Pierce Reflect and has a 10 second line cooldown. ITN has a 12 second line cooldown. Doubles have a 1 second capped cast and 4 second recharge.

[DigitalBath]

I could see that working.

Maybe an adjustment to DTN ratio would be needed, but that would certainly lengthen fights and give players more time to think.

I'll let Digital comment on that.

I don't think that will fix the main issue Soldiers have, which is when a NT with a team of non-NT's barges in and everyone attacks during the Pierce Reflect time.
That's what I'm mostly willing to fix here. I don't see NT's current PvP damage in Offensive as OP in ANY way as we have a downtime of 35 seconds where we're highly vulnerable after Aegis. It's a fair enough trade-off.

By highly vulnerable I mean we have 13-14k HP, our nano is set to 0 so we have to either recharge it or use up IW/perks and we have only nanobot shelter which DOES NOT stack with rrfe for defense (we can have both nanos running but it's just a waste of NCU, the effects don't stack). That means that we can easily be alpha'd by almost any prof for those 35 seconds. Seriously, try catching a NT right after Aegis goes down!
I have been doing it while leveling my now 219 fixer, which has 2001 full auto and ~2.5k AR. I run from NT's with Aegis up.. go back.. load up all my perks while running off with Q up.. and then go back in when about half have executed to FA+Burst+Fling. It's ugly but it kills them effectively.

This is one of many ways to kill a NT, folks.

[Commando]

Are you confusing the newly implemented delayed nukes with the Doubles, here? The double hits INSTANTLY after cast.
Seriously, the amount of misinformation here is insane.

Hmm, yes i must have mixed the two, let me correct my post>>

[Vinkera]

I don't think that will fix the main issue Soldiers have, which is when a NT with a team of non-NT's barges in and everyone attacks during the Pierce Reflect time.
That's what I'm mostly willing to fix here. I don't see NT's current PvP damage in Offensive as OP in ANY way as we have a downtime of 35 seconds where we're highly vulnerable after Aegis. It's a fair enough trade-off.

By highly vulnerable I mean we have 13-14k HP, our nano is set to 0 so we have to either recharge it or use up IW/perks and we have only nanobot shelter which DOES NOT stack with rrfe for defense (we can have both nanos running but it's just a waste of NCU, the effects don't stack). That means that we can easily be alpha'd by almost any prof for those 35 seconds. Seriously, try catching a NT right after Aegis goes down!
I have been doing it while leveling my now 219 fixer, which has 2001 full auto and ~2.5k AR. I run from NT's with Aegis up.. go back.. load up all my perks while running off with Q up.. and then go back in when about half have executed to FA+Burst+Fling. It's ugly but it kills them effectively.

This is one of many ways to kill a NT, folks.

I was playing devil's advocate, but I agree with you 100℅.

I know that's usually your job, and thought I'd give it a try

[sultryvoltron]

I don't think that will fix the main issue Soldiers have, which is when a NT with a team of non-NT's barges in and everyone attacks during the Pierce Reflect time.
That's what I'm mostly willing to fix here. I don't see NT's current PvP damage in Offensive as OP in ANY way as we have a downtime of 35 seconds where we're highly vulnerable after Aegis. It's a fair enough trade-off.

By highly vulnerable I mean we have 13-14k HP, our nano is set to 0 so we have to either recharge it or use up IW/perks and we have only nanobot shelter which DOES NOT stack with rrfe for defense (we can have both nanos running but it's just a waste of NCU, the effects don't stack). That means that we can easily be alpha'd by almost any prof for those 35 seconds. Seriously, try catching a NT right after Aegis goes down!
I have been doing it while leveling my now 219 fixer, which has 2001 full auto and ~2.5k AR. I run from NT's with Aegis up.. go back.. load up all my perks while running off with Q up.. and then go back in when about half have executed to FA+Burst+Fling. It's ugly but it kills them effectively.

This is one of many ways to kill a NT, folks.

If that's all that can change then why not change it to just pierce Radiation damage and move on?
Nobody else really does Radiation damage at TL7.

[DigitalBath]

If that's all that can change then why not change it to just pierce Radiation damage and move on?
Nobody else really does Radiation damage at TL7.

I have agreed upon that already and think it's the easiest and most cost-effective solution out there and it WILL have considerable impact on how Soldiers fare when a NT is around in PvP as their AMS won't be rendered useless to everyone. That doesn't mean they'll survive a team's worth of damage but that's not on the table for anyone in AO, I'm afraid. Closest would be an engi with a pocket doc these days.. but I digress.

Vinkera was trying to see if there was a better solution from the Soldier's side of the toolset.. but maybe a combination of changing the pierce reflect on the nukes to their relevant damage type (radiation) with the already boosted AMS (higher heal from and to the soldier, boosted damage dealt back and root/snare resistance) and the other boosts from the late 18.7 branch are enough to address the Soldier concerns, though.

[Vinkera]

If that's all that can change then why not change it to just pierce Radiation damage and move on?
Nobody else really does Radiation damage at TL7.

I think that's the change we'll have to agree on, if any. I'd like to see alternatives to Peirce Reflect in the future, but this is what we've got right now.

[Commando]

as we drop a huge amount of defense to be able to use the first two.

I do not believe NT's have problems casting MC nukes requiring (The average 2400) MC.
If i am not wrong you can cast all nukes in pretty much full defensive setup.

[DigitalBath]

I do not believe NT's have problems casting MC nukes requiring (The average 2400) MC.
If i am not wrong you can cast all nukes in pretty much full defensive setup.

You are wrong. I can see that, as usual, a lot of arguments against NT's come from lack of information on how the Profession(s) involved work. Gladly, this doesn't warrant nerfs, boosts or anything else.

Inform yourself about what Defensive Focus and Offensive Focus are on NT's and what they allow us to cast/not cast.
It has NOTHING to do with nanoskill requirements. We're just literally blocked from using parts of our toolset to choose a more offensive or more defensive role.

Reference material for a starting point if you're good with searching stuff on aoitems:
https://aoitems.com/item/266314/defensive-focus/
https://aoitems.com/item/266315/offensive-focus/

[Vinkera]

OK, I've had enough of this. We've come to a reasonable enough decision.

This thread isn't a place for education. Also, If you don't know my profession, don't make spiteful suggestions. Its blantly obvious if you do.