Change Collector WU drop to silver box loot! And off the body as well!

[Discipline]

Lets not make this a personal fight.

How do I prove to ya that I got 5 IGoCs from 1 set of boxes? Í can't, can I? It was some months ago, though.

About the difference in Angst and Ofab. I did see an agent, not sure of his name, a month ago fighting an Enfo. Both very twinked and good PvPers. The Angst guy capped the hell out of the enfo while 2 hours later, the ofab/ai typed/s7 rifle lost every single time due to not managing to cap as much as the other did. Their equip was amost the same. I wish i wrote down the names.

About the IGoCs, I want trying to make the ''I got 5 IGoCs" a standard but point out that Silver is a huge difference to Gold as i got lots of stuff from Silver but only a few Golds which were ACDC, boxes or some bots.

Teeko, again, in your comparassion one factor is not included: level 200 SHOULD NOT have acces to Xan materials since it's 201+. That factor alone makes it equal if not better than ACDC in thar ecuation.

Personally, it should be as is: very hard to aquire.

[Rockdizzle]

The name of the Agent with the Angst is >>Blackdhalia<< it's been in every post of mine.

And no his Angst is not legit, after getting it deleted in 18.6(the first patch it was "readded") he tricked a GM into respawning the xan weapon for him making it fake legit.
Hopefully that GM felt embarrassed when the very next patch notes said "WUs should properly drop in gold chests"

[Rockdizzle]

http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...80#post6218280 A recent post someone made about him opening 21 Silver Boxes, took him 150 bronzes boxes or 25 full rounds to build up.

This is not "proof" to change WUs far from it, it just further points out that the Collector chest system as a whole is retarded so when we say it's super lucky/rare to get 5 IGoCs or even 1-2 out of multiple sets we weren't kidding.


This seems to be the pattern here, Those who know how broken the system is are like "whoa whoa I'd like a chance at a WU in my lifetime please" and those under the assumption that either Collector is dropping golds like mad or think Xan weaps are OP are saying "Please keep it in gold chests for this reason and this reason".

In the end if they stay in gold chests that's fine but don't let it be due to misconceptions like OP xan weapons and high droprates on silver/gold chest loot.

[appolonia]

http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...back-with-18-7

Tell me about self contradiction and attention whoring... The severe ban stick has struck for far less than the recuring insults thrown in there.

Anyway, most if not all of this thread is irelevant, as WU are still to be seen in chests, as weapon choice is highly class dependant, as ACDC is obviously far more accessible than WU at 200, as anybody's play time and style is different, and so on.

It's incredible to read people comparing Xan WUs and Coll's potential ones, arguing WUs now drop like candy and sell for 10m when they sell, arguing ACDC is more valuable than a WU (sorry, I got my ACDCs and I'd rather get an ELLTS, gunship, or leads form chests, or brag with a Xan on some of my 200s), arguing... Give a little, get a little, there's no way 100% people will be 100% pleased.

ACDC is obtainable through S42, an apf you can do with a good solid bunch of friends, or even on a bot. It's 3 weeks of farming points on Hellcom actually, raiding 4/5 hours a day MAX. And by raiding, I mean, PLAYING. Provided there's the same active bot for clans, but I don't know if it's actually true. For a 200, there's no way to get a WU except MAYBE Collector if it really drops. Dunno, what's hard to understand there ? ACDC is of more use to you, just farm whatever way you want, knowing Collector is not the "legit" way. If WUs had dropped from the start (and to me they shall not, then any Xan stuff should too) this whole thread would have never started. That won't make Collector better designed, but things are the way they are, until they change...

Now if people want yesdrop WUs or whatever, just make a thread with valid arguments and call Michi. Everybody's free to express themselves and fight for what they want, just like people active in the rebalance discussions got what they want and MAs got Zazen. Ok, ok, very bad example. Anyway, it would be nice not to put up obvious bad ideas or to underline potential breaches that would be fixed asap. But instead of focusing on WUs (and ACDCs), why not think on Collector itself ?

If my opinion is to be taken into account, I'd like to see collector's loot table cleaned and/or the loots redistributed. It's been done when Spirituals started dropping. Most of the Silvers' loot is pure junk to anybody anyway, and no safe guy would keep them in Silver chests.

Then the loot system is stupid, but we're stepping into a world FC doesn't have the work force to work on : You don't kill a guy owning every item in game just to get a CHANCE to RANDOMLY hand his treasures. It's like a Trox tank boss hitting you with that huge 2H sword and when he's dead you find a pistol, a NM only "cloth" armor and a crat item on his dead body. Silvers are too rare for what they drop, and the loot table too generic. There could be a keys system, or something granting you access to the Silver cache after X Bronze and the Golden cache after X Bronze/Silver. What's the purpose of having a silver or gold chest hidden in a bronze one ? Oo

There shall be a 100% sure way of getting a Silver/Gold chest. The Collector feels alone, and he wants to put you at test, even if he's still tricky about leaving you his treasures. The global design of Collector, though ultra poor, is still ok, it's fun to roll a dice and pray for a gain. But then there shall be a way to get a relevant reward after "farming" the instance, like the secretary rewarding you for killing her pervert boss, or the essence, bored to be chain killed, offering you a key he stole, whatever. A timer maybe ? Items to farm ? Anyway, it might be easier to implement. As it is, Collector is another huge failure, but there are things to be done to revive it, besided promising without prooving a WU shall drop there one day.

[Rockdizzle]

Both that thread and this thread have nothing to do with each other "attention whoring" or not.

Jailshank asked the simple question of "Does the WU even drop right now from gold chests"(after stripping out the rest of the post) and nobody could even give a straight answer sadly. The best answer which came from me was "uuummmm maybe?" before it derailed into irrelevant stuff.


Back on Topic:
We have 2 arguments against WUs getting moved down to silver or made more accessible and I can only really agree with the 1 which is "200s never had and still don't have access to Xan".
It's a fair argument but no ones really given a supporting reason for why it has to result in WUs being/staying in gold chests, the closest one was "xan weaps are OP at 200" but that argument has more or less been debunked.

An example of a 201+ item given to lowbies is DB2 bracer, I don't recall anyone asking for it but we were and we didn't have to jump thru hoops to get it. The limiting factor was 200s getting DB bracer(5/10).
DB2 being level locked or not would change nothing due to yesdrop loot.

My main question is "Why should WU be such a huge hurdle to obtain if previous 201+ only items aren't", we don't want it to be lol easy to get(at least some of us don't) but I shouldn't feel like I'm giving up my day job just to hope to get one.
The limiting factor for WU weapons is both the skills(Troller pistol is basically useless) and the TL req of 6 keeping it out of the hands of pre 190s.

If you can give me/us a valid answer than I'll stop vouching for easier to obtain WUs. Others might keep asking for it but I have other matters I could be bringing up that are arguably more important.

[sultryvoltron]

An example of a 201+ item given to lowbies is DB2 bracer, I don't recall anyone asking for it but we were and we didn't have to jump thru hoops to get it. The limiting factor was 200s getting DB bracer(5/10).
DB2 being level locked or not would change nothing due to yesdrop loot.

Level 200s can go participate in DB2. They now have items from DB2 that they can use.
They cannot go participate in Xan. They still have graciously been given a very small chance to get a WU.

There are not very many comparable examples except for, apparently, Invasion Plans which is one of the only other examples of an item that 200s can get from collector but not from the standard instance, except they can't use it. There are no examples I can think of that are comparable to getting WU from Collector.

[Rockdizzle]

Level 200s can go participate in DB2. They now have items from DB2 that they can use.
They cannot go participate in Xan. They still have graciously been given a very small chance to get a WU.

There are not very many comparable examples except for, apparently, Invasion Plans which is one of the only other examples of an item that 200s can get from collector but not from the standard instance, except they can't use it. There are no examples I can think of that are comparable to getting WU from Collector.

As I pointed out in my post the loot is also yesdrop, DB1 2 and 3 could all be 201+ only tomorrow and 175-200 toons wouldn't be impacted in the least. In fact if you read my question for everyone you would know what it is I was getting at. * I know the gun is nodrop, the point is only for the bracer*

I will break it down in case anyone was confused. I will keep the DB bracer comparison as it's simple.:

The DB bracer(5/10) at face value (stats) trumps the bonuses from xan weaps including extra dmg any day.

The cred value of the bracer is irrelevant, that value is just player created.

The ease of getting a complete bracer for a 200 toon(5/10) or even a perfected bracer(can't wear) is many many many times easier to obtain. You don't even need a 220 to get a bracer and infusers due to yesdrop loot.
"Nodrop" bracer would only mean >1< kill where you have to grab it yourself, "nodrop" infusers would only mean 3 kills. I could do that during a school lunch break myself.

The bracer at (5/10) is lol easy to get on, 1301 is less than what some profs run around with without perks/huge trickle gear. *Xan weapons are untouched minus a TL req.



It's clear it's been dumbed down and just as easy if not easier to get not to mention the other items/weapons aimed for TL7 toons, while 1 item from another TL7 instance/area was made available in the most difficult way possible with 0 adjustments to the weapons otherwise and the best argument so far is "you can't enter the pf so suck it up and farm collector 200+ times for a 5% chance at a WU".

If that's the only answer I'm gonna get than I don't think we're gonna get very far.

[sultryvoltron]

As I pointed out in my post the loot is also yesdrop, DB1 2 and 3 could all be 201+ only tomorrow and 175-200 toons wouldn't be impacted in the least. In fact if you read my question for everyone you would know what it is I was getting at.

The ease of getting a complete bracer for a 200 toon(5/10) or even a perfected bracer(can't wear) is many many many times easier to obtain. You don't even need a 220 to get a bracer and infusers due to yesdrop loot.

"Nodrop" bracer would only mean >1< kill where you have to grab it yourself, "nodrop" infusers would only mean 3 kills. I could do that during a school lunch break myself.

Trimmed out the stuff I don't think is important (maybe it is).

This is a very interesting hypothetical, but it's just a hypothetical. The facts of the matter are simple. Level 200s could participate in DB2 before the bracer was changed (since the quest req was removed). Changing the bracer, while extremely beneficial, only provided a reward to players for content that they could already do.

When we change the discussion to WUs we are talking about an unprecedented where someone can get and use loot from an instance that they cannot participate in. The arguments of "it's only marginally useful" or "not as hard to get as other better items" or even that "other better items are yesdrop" aren't even relevant when discussing this issue. The question we should be asking is "should a character be able to get and use loot from an instance that they cannot participate in?"

The answer to that question is usually solved with level locks on the actual item. In this case it is a level lock in the instance where the item comes from. Again, I question why they drop at all from Collector because it literally defies the entire concept of level locks. In my opinion you should be thankful that they drop at all right now, should farm your ass off until you can get one, and be thankful that you can say it was legit if it gets nerfed down the line.

[Rockdizzle]

If I answer your question with no altering than the answer is complicated as I would have to bring up 61+ gaining access to items they couldn't obtain before as a possible problem.
example: 101+ enfs getting access to formans tank armor even tho it wasn't introduced later so the only excuse is "they forgot to grab one".

Unless you rephrase your question this alone makes your argument/question null.

Now I know your question is actually only talking about toons gaining access to an item from an instance/area they are too low to enter.
My answer is in fact yes >IF< nothing else in the game changes to make gaining access to items out of your level range (up and down, access to the PF or not is irrelevant if lvl locked) impossible.

It's obvious that other out of level range items were made MUCH more easier to get (yet to find a Guardian Tank Armor in Gold chests) and an item with a 201+ level lock in a tl7 focused instance was made partially available so the fact that >1< item in a non-unique situation(out of level range) was made to be insanely hard to get regardless of it's usefulness is truly unusual.

**And no you won't see teams of 175s killing Aune for their bracer let alone 200s (obviously not possible) regardless of access, I'm surprised you managed to convince yourself with that excuse since I was going to ignore it before you repeated it.
If you intend to counter this with "Weelll you can just bring a 220 or 2 to help" than don't bother, we both know at that point that the pre 200 toons become redundant to the team.

[sultryvoltron]

If I answer your question with no altering than the answer is complicated as I would have to bring up 61+ gaining access to items they couldn't obtain before as a possible problem.
example: 101+ enfs getting access to formans tank armor even tho it wasn't introduced later so the only excuse is "they forgot to grab one".

A level 101+ enfo could have gone to Foremans. Not doing so, and thus not getting an item from a previous instance, is a choice you make. This is unrelated to the issue at hand.

Unless you rephrase your question this alone makes your argument/question null.

No it does not, see above.

Now I know your question is actually only talking about toons gaining access to an item from an instance/area they are too low to enter.
My answer is in fact yes >IF< nothing else in the game changes to make gaining access to items out of your level range (up and down, access to the PF or not is irrelevant if lvl locked) impossible.

I don't understand what you are trying to say. It has always been impossible to acquire an item from an instance that you are too low of a level to enter until you were allowed to warp into DB2 and again when Collector was introduced. It has also always been impossible to use an item from an instance that you are too low of a level to enter until WU was added to collector.

It's obvious that other out of level range items were made MUCH more easier to get (yet to find a Guardian Tank Armor in Gold chests) and an item with a 201+ level lock in a tl7 focused instance was made partially available so the fact that >1< item in a non-unique situation(out of level range) was made to be insanely hard to get regardless of it's usefulness is truly unusual.

Out of level range is not the same as ABOVE level range. If you get an item from a lower level locked instance you have already had access to that zone and had the opportunity to participate in the content where the item is from. These two ideas are completely distinct.

**And no you won't see teams of 175s killing Aune for their bracer let alone 200s (obviously not possible) regardless of access, I'm surprised you managed to convince yourself with that excuse since I was going to ignore it before you repeated it.
If you intend to counter this with "Weelll you can just bring a 220 or 2 to help" than don't bother, we both know at that point that the pre 200 toons become redundant to the team.

Similarly a team of level 15s won't be taking down Aztur by themselves, but they still have access to and can participate in the content.

None of these things is at all an answer to the question and will require a much more thorough answer than "oops I forgot to get GTA on my level 61 but that's ok I can get it from Collector".

[Rockdizzle]

This will likely just go full circle and or go off topic which would be my fault for mentioning another instance, I'll end my convo with you for now after this post and wait for others to comment about the WU issue. Feel free to reply tho and I'll read/consider what you write for later.

A level 101+ enfo could have gone to Foremans. Not doing so, and thus not getting an item from a previous instance, is a choice you make. This is unrelated to the issue at hand.

A previously impossible thing IE: getting an item out of your level range (place any item added to Collector/RK dyna here) was made possible. I don't see how it's not relevant when even tho the comparisons are not the "same" they are still similar as both are equally impossible at the level you want it at. Both situations would require you to do something drastic to your toon in order to get said item.
WU pre 201 -> leveling
Lowbie item -> Deleting and making new toon

Neither one is desirable and the only differences is the direction in levels both went, 1 leveled up becoming less of a twink while the other de-leveled/deleted their toon losing time/effort and possible nodrops.



If the other impossible to get items were still impossible I would have little to argue back with besides "It's too hard to get" which doesn't hold its weight much but on the other hand the counter-argument "You can't access it so it should be hard to get" also holds no weight as no such Difficulty Guideline has been thought up for each item but instead randomly applied to every item that's outside it's playfield.

If such a guideline existed this thread would be pointless and be abandoned or not exist at all, since it doesn't tho we have every right to question whether it's in the right place or not even if nothing changes.
Nobody questions ELLTS dropping in Gold chests but if it dropped in bronze chests you would hear a lot of pissed off people so Gold chests was accepted overall.
(ELLTS is in it's own situation as an item that NO ONE can obtain ingame from other means, it also happens to be the first "unobtainable" item added to Collector and Gold chest happened to be the right place for it)

WU also just happens to also be a "first" for Collector but there seems to be a clear divide in where people think it should be so both sides reasons should be equally considered, I even gave a suggestion which helps us that want easier WUs but keeps it in gold chests and rare.


Anyways I have a simple question for you(others are free to also answer) which is kind of a "what if".
"If WUs were to stay in gold chests and untouched for the reason you stated and in say 6 months an item from IS entered Collector loot table should it automatically be in Gold Chests, if not why?" remember IS has a level lock.

Similarly a team of level 15s won't be taking down Aztur by themselves, but they still have access to and can participate in the content.

None of these things is at all an answer to the question and will require a much more thorough answer than "oops I forgot to get GTA on my level 61 but that's ok I can get it from Collector".

*edited in* Since you went out of your way to reply to this I might as well give a reply also.

TOTW is not the best of comparisons, sure any level from 1-60 can enter but it also has no lvl locked loot to keep toons from wearing the loot. Foremans is the closest example when you look at the Weapons and Tank armor, you can also enter at lvl 1 but the zone is not intended for lvl 1s but instead level 40+ toons as indicated by the loot , mobs(levels 40-80) and the lvl locked questline.

Does this mean Foremans should have its lvl reqs on loot removed because a lvl20 can run in and get it's butt kicked while doing the "content", ofc not. If it happened than so be it but just like the DB2 Bracer no one asked for it but it's not like the previous GM was like "Jee wiz I sure feel sorry for those 175s entering DB2 and helping out, guess I'll lower the bracer lvl req for them as well as the CL req for good measure".

Why would my answer even remotely be "oops I forgot to get GTA on my level 61 but that's ok I can get it from Collector". How did you even get that kind of response from what I've been writing.

[Jailshank]

Having a Xan weapon on a 200 twink is a very big difference, regardless of what some people comment here. Any 200 PvPer feels the difference when he's fighting an Agent with Ofab and an Agent with Angst or a Keeper with Pride. So that's a big con to making it easy to obtain.
.

^^I personally find it hard to believe you can say that with confidence. I'd love to know how you know so much about how it feels when I haven't seen a XAN weapon in 200 BS in years (I've never seen one, been pvp'ing in BS for about 5 years at 200). Sure it's fair to say you have PVP'ed against an Edge of tarasque or a Dreadloch Bear / dual panthers / QL 300 MK 6 weapon, as these are extremely similar to a Xan weapon. But for you to say that it is a huge difference "regardless of what some people comment here" when fighting Xan twinks compared to fight not Xan twinks is hard to imagine. How would you know?

I think you should take a look at some of the stats on these Xan weapons that you "feel the difference" against "in your experience with fighting 200 Xan weapon twinks". Since you mentioned pride and angst when talking about the difference you can feel, and I am making a Pride Keeper, lets just compare my current weapon, HeoT, vs the Pride.

-HeoT : Damage: 440-550(480). 2750 MBS. 1.4/1.4 speed. -Additional stats : Minor DoT Proc (920 dmg over 36s)
-Pride : Damage: 441-558(444). 2750 MBS. 1.4/1.4 speed. -Additional stats : +600 hp +30 def + 30 Psy Mod +30 Bio met.

In depth damage Comparison :
First off - Same speed and same MBS. Beyond that, the Pride hits harder when not crit'ing by a difference of 1. The HeoT hits harder when crit'ing by a difference of 28 - just weapon damage, attack rating multiplication of weapon damage not included here. So all it takes is the innate crit hit rating of 4% and the Heot will outdamage the Pride, NOT including the HeoT's DoT proc, which again, is minor, but is additional dps. And as the crit hit rating gets buffed more, the HeoT become progressively even stronger than the Pride.
So the HeoT definitively does more damage, at level 200 or level 220, even with no crit gear on, and becomes increasingly more powerful with more crit chance.

In depth bonus stat comparison :
Then we must take into consideration the Pride's bonuses - 600 hp, 30 def, 30PM and 30 BM. There is no arguing that 600hp and 30 def is a welcome boost, while the 30 nanoskills are useless to me, I cast all top nanos without hotswapping and NR1 perked. So I will not be acknowledging the nanoskills buff in my conclusion. - HOWEVER my current 200 keeper has 17.2k hp, 1500 evade and 925 add all def (2425 combined evade). So I would go from -17.2k hp and 2425 evade- to -17.8k hp and 2455 evade-. Here are some percentile statistics so as to help with seeing the actual effectiveness of the Pride buffs : I will gain 3.48% hp buff and a 1.23% add all defense buff. Not a huge buff in my opinion.

Comparison Conclusion - With a Pride on I will be experiencing a rather slight decrease in damage in exchange for 3.48% HP buff and 1.23% Evades buff. (Which is a welcome buff, remember that I am in fact farming one of these. I would sincerely say that those defensive buffs are also rather slight). But it's not like I'm not gonna go and stomp the twinks that beat me when I had the HeoT on - In fact it is hardly going to be a noticeable difference I believe. I am already unperkable by all except those pesky huge AR enfo’s and Enf- Agents, and I don’t personally think that this +1.23% evades is going to change that, and my 3.48% HP will only turn the tide of the very closest fights, which if I’m being honest, as a twinked keeper fighting other twinks, I don’t experience many of. I either dominate in fights or my opponent dominates me.

So really im not going to experience hardly any difference. Except of course for the fact that I will be wearing a huge blatantly sexy Xan weapon at 200! That is what is in this for me : effectively nothing more than social glory! I will definitely be noticed for the ridiculously large weapon glowing blue in my hand, and people will surely learn to fear the sight of it because my keeper is already nasty at 200, but in reality they will be fearing the lesser damaging one of the two swords.

I got 5 IGoCs from 1 set of boxes.
.

I believe that this is an intentionally skewed statistic, selected from the 99th percentile of luckiness so as to further your argument regarding how rare silver and gold box loot drops are. I don’t think I will be acknowledging such an extreme statistic as a standard of comparison because I don’t find that statistic accurate / consistent. I also think it’s harmful to the people who are trying to form an opinion on this matter based off of comments they read =(

http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...80#post6218280 A recent post someone made about him opening 21 Silver Boxes, took him 150 bronzes boxes or 25 full rounds to build up.

This is not "proof" to change WUs far from it, it just further points out that the Collector chest system as a whole is retarded so when we say it's super lucky/rare to get 5 IGoCs or even 1-2 out of multiple sets we weren't kidding.


This seems to be the pattern here, Those who know how broken the system is are like "whoa whoa I'd like a chance at a WU in my lifetime please" and those under the assumption that either Collector is dropping golds like mad or think Xan weaps are OP are saying "Please keep it in gold chests for this reason and this reason".

In the end if they stay in gold chests that's fine but don't let it be due to misconceptions like OP xan weapons and high droprates on silver/gold chest loot.

^^Well said Rockdizzle and thanks for the helpful reference post! I wholeheartedly agree with everything you mentioned here!



--- In conclusion, I think I must call it quits with this post. I have proposed my idea and I hope the Dev’s got a look at it and considered it, and I hope the Dev’s that see it have enough in-game experience to not be influenced negatively by all the misinformation that has been left on this post. But I don't have the time to constantly come back and try to correct the flow of incorrect information so that the dev's can get an accurate look at the idea I am proposing.

I honestly think this idea will revitalize 200 twinks and give people fun stuff to do at that 200, introducing a whole new set of weapons for pvp. EVEN if they are effectively minimally different, it is still new content and this game sorely needs new content for 200.

It really doesn't mean… hardly anything to me anymore whether or not these get changed to silver box'es, I am going to farm one either way.

What should be considered is that not everyone has the resources I do. I have a 220 perfect for Collector farming, and I have a super active Org that helps me farm it daily! I’m super lucky, or at least I feel that I am. So I’m going to get a Pride at 200, gold box or silver box, it is just a matter of time, there is no question to it. If they stay gold box drop only, that will just make my twink all the more exclusive! =]

And I’m sure that when I do someone will show up and post about how I'm OP because of my pride while it is a less damaging weapon XD

[sultryvoltron]

Anyways I have a simple question for you(others are free to also answer) which is kind of a "what if".
"If WUs were to stay in gold chests and untouched for the reason you stated and in say 6 months an item from IS entered Collector loot table should it automatically be in Gold Chests, if not why?" remember IS has a level lock.

Couple things:
1) The situation of deleting and rerolling a twink because of your own screw up is not the same as gaining access to items earlier than intended.

2) To answer your question, IS items that have level locks should drop from bronze and silver chests, the weapons shouldn't drop there at all or should be given level locks. Also, the fact that they don't drop further emphasizes the unique nature of WUs dropping in collector.




.

[Rockdizzle]

Couple things:
1) The situation of deleting and rerolling a twink because of your own screw up is not the same as gaining access to items earlier than intended.

The "deleting and rerolling of a toon" is not the point I was making,I was merely pointing out a end result for both situations so you can just ignore them if it helps. I was pointing out that getting a item past its intended lvl range and before its intended lvl range are 99% the same.

2) To answer your question, IS items that have level locks should drop from bronze and silver chests, the weapons shouldn't drop there at all or should be given level locks. Also, the fact that they don't drop further emphasizes the unique nature of WUs dropping in collector.

There seems to be inconsistent logic with your answer.

The Xan weapons as we speak have a lvl lock below the "intended" level range, if/when the same thing is done to say Gelid blade(lets say level 100) than the only way you can decide a place for them is by their "value".

"The arguments of "it's only marginally useful" or "not as hard to get as other better items" or even that "other better items are yesdrop" aren't even relevant when discussing this issue."
This was taken from a past reply of yours stating that comparing an item like "Gelid Blade" or "Hatred of the xan" to other items is pointless as both are in level locked PFs. If you/I/somone else can't compare the weapons to anything except for the fact that it can be obtained before its intended level than both have a "equal value".

The answer you should of given is Gold Chest, I was expecting to see Gold Chest as your answer as the arguments you've used made that pretty clear. But you said Bronze/silver so it's clear you are either undervaluing the IS weapon or you are overvaluing the Xan weapon.

If you want to apply hidden arbitrary values to items and pass it off as part of your main argument than our conversation ends for good as I can't take anything you say seriously otherwise. Thanks for the convo tho.

[sultryvoltron]

1) Again, these situations are not the same at all unless you cherry pick words. One of them represents a conscious decision (not getting an item before you leave a high end level lock) and the other represents an impossibility (getting an item that you have not ever had the chance to get).

Think of this example. In the US there used to be a driver education course in high school. I can choose to not take the course and not get a drivers license at this time. Later down the line in my 30s I can get my drivers license through another means even though I did not take that course. This is clearly acceptable in the eyes of the law because you have already passed a minimum acceptable age, and just because you didn't get it at the first opportunity doesn't mean you can't ever get if.

However, a 10 year old can never get a drivers license.

2) To clarify, I said that the weapons should not drop there unless they are given a level lock. If they are to drop there and not have a level lock then they should drop from gold chests per the same reasoning as a WU. I am not so stupid as to walk into such an easy trap.

I will agree that Gelids dropping from a Gold Box would be absurd for a level 220 character doing the content in a standard way however, I do find it telling that FC chose not to have IS items drop from Collector. This very well could be because they do not want teams dragging level 90 twinks through Collector in order to get access to non-intended items. They have made an exception with WUs and it is one that I disagree with because of other potential situations like this.

[Rockdizzle]

1) Again, these situations are not the same at all unless you cherry pick words. One of them represents a conscious decision (not getting an item before you leave a high end level lock) and the other represents an impossibility (getting an item that you have not ever had the chance to get).

Think of this example. In the US there used to be a driver education course in high school. I can choose to not take the course and not get a drivers license at this time. Later down the line in my 30s I can get my drivers license through another means even though I did not take that course. This is clearly acceptable in the eyes of the law because you have already passed a minimum acceptable age, and just because you didn't get it at the first opportunity doesn't mean you can't ever get if.

However, a 10 year old can never get a drivers license.

You're messing some things up with your example.
Firstly the course is always available so you can never "miss/forget" it till it's too late. I could be 35 and still go thru the same course even if I don't have to. A 220 can't run thru the Subway again for Nasc ring parts so he/she has to do the intended quest in SL.(Yes I know you can skip it but that was a later feature and the quest is ALWAYs available to do.)

Second is that the course is just there to allow people to get a license before they become an Adult tho with "limits". Like Collector if neither existed you would have to wait/level to get what you wanted, in the case of your example that would be the drivers license.

Third is yes a 10 year old can't get a license(thankfully) but that's because a lower limit was applied to how soon one can get a legit license and use it to drive before going thru the normal adult procedure, the closest example to this in game is the TL req on xan weapons.
If a 12 year old somehow got a license whether thru stealing/forging/unknown means/lying about age etc(can put whatever you want here) it would be useless still. Just like a 120 toon getting a xan weapon, sure he got it but its useless.


You can think up a 100 scenarios ingame/real life but you will never find a perfect example so the best you can do is find the closest one which is all I am trying to do. It's not like a second WU-like item exists in a 201+ that was added outside the PF that I could compare with.

2) To clarify, I said that the weapons should not drop there unless they are given a level lock. If they are to drop there and not have a level lock then they should drop from gold chests per the same reasoning as a WU. I am not so stupid as to walk into such an easy trap.

I will agree that Gelids dropping from a Gold Box would be absurd for a level 220 character doing the content in a standard way however, I do find it telling that FC chose not to have IS items drop from Collector. This very well could be because they do not want teams dragging level 90 twinks through Collector in order to get access to non-intended items. They have made an exception with WUs and it is one that I disagree with because of other potential situations like this.

You say you wouldn't fall for such a "easy trap" but you stepped in it yourself if anything.

"To clarify, I said that the weapons should not drop there unless they are given a level lock."
Exact reason why a level lock(in the form of a TL lock) was added to xan weapons. Saying that the Weapon Upgrade itself doesn't have one would be a stupid argument to try and sell to anyone.

"If they are to drop there and not have a level lock then they should drop from gold chests per the same reasoning as a WU."
The weapons do in fact have level locks so the reasoning is not the same, you seem to be avoiding the fact that the xan weapons cant be worn at 150 even with enough skills.

"They have made an exception with WUs and it is one that I disagree with because of other potential situations like this."
That's the problem with "firsts", some were not happy with ELLTS dropping again since it devalues their scopes but it happened and a place was decided for it in collector due to that.

"I do find it telling that FC chose not to have IS items drop from Collector."
Because no one asked for it, I chose IS because it has both a lower level limit(125) and no upper limit(220s can enter) not because I want anything early from it.
I would easily bet 1bil creds right now that if Gelid blades got a 100 level lock(lower than intended lvl range just like xan weaps) and were thrown in Gold Chests that people would bitch about it and get it moved to bronze/silver chests.

I've given you the best example possible (IS weapon with a level lock lower than the PFs level limit just like xan weapons) so again I'm gonna ask the same question as before which you can choose to dance around if you want but it's a pretty important question that needs a real answer (anyone can answer this question).


>What makes WUs/xan weapons(level locked) so important that the prospect of either moving it to silver chests or making it easier in some other way are quickly shot down every time with the same excuse of "It's from a level locked PF"?

Remember Gelid swords with a level lock in your own words belong in bronze/silver chests but Xan weapons with level locks(which they have atm) belong in Gold Chests, the answer I'm looking for is in what way you are placing higher value on the xan weapons over a weapon from another PF.

[sultryvoltron]

You're messing some things up with your example.
Firstly the course is always available so you can never "miss/forget" it till it's too late. I could be 35 and still go thru the same course even if I don't have to. A 220 can't run thru the Subway again for Nasc ring parts so he/she has to do the intended quest in SL.(Yes I know you can skip it but that was a later feature and the quest is ALWAYs available to do.)

Second is that the course is just there to allow people to get a license before they become an Adult tho with "limits". Like Collector if neither existed you would have to wait/level to get what you wanted, in the case of your example that would be the drivers license.

Third is yes a 10 year old can't get a license(thankfully) but that's because a lower limit was applied to how soon one can get a legit license and use it to drive before going thru the normal adult procedure, the closest example to this in game is the TL req on xan weapons.
If a 12 year old somehow got a license whether thru stealing/forging/unknown means/lying about age etc(can put whatever you want here) it would be useless still. Just like a 120 toon getting a xan weapon, sure he got it but its useless.

You are apparently not familiar with how this works in the U.S. Once you turn 18 you no longer have to take the course and will take a different set of exams. Also, it is simply an example of a similar situation to illustrate the difference between too high of a level vs too low of a level. I stand by the claim that these are not the same and I reject that your claim of similarity entirely.

You say you wouldn't fall for such a "easy trap" but you stepped in it yourself if anything.

"To clarify, I said that the weapons should not drop there unless they are given a level lock."
Exact reason why a level lock(in the form of a TL lock) was added to xan weapons. Saying that the Weapon Upgrade itself doesn't have one would be a stupid argument to try and sell to anyone.

"If they are to drop there and not have a level lock then they should drop from gold chests per the same reasoning as a WU."
The weapons do in fact have level locks so the reasoning is not the same, you seem to be avoiding the fact that the xan weapons cant be worn at 150 even with enough skills.

"They have made an exception with WUs and it is one that I disagree with because of other potential situations like this."
That's the problem with "firsts", some were not happy with ELLTS dropping again since it devalues their scopes but it happened and a place was decided for it in collector due to that.

"I do find it telling that FC chose not to have IS items drop from Collector."
Because no one asked for it, I chose IS because it has both a lower level limit(125) and no upper limit(220s can enter) not because I want anything early from it.
I would easily bet 1bil creds right now that if Gelid blades got a 100 level lock(lower than intended lvl range just like xan weaps) and were thrown in Gold Chests that people would bitch about it and get it moved to bronze/silver chests.

I've given you the best example possible (IS weapon with a level lock lower than the PFs level limit just like xan weapons) so again I'm gonna ask the same question as before which you can choose to dance around if you want but it's a pretty important question that needs a real answer (anyone can answer this question).


>What makes WUs/xan weapons(level locked) so important that the prospect of either moving it to silver chests or making it easier in some other way are quickly shot down every time with the same excuse of "It's from a level locked PF"?

A TL lock on an instance is, again, not the same as a level lock on an item. Claiming that they are is as foolish as most of your other claims.

Remember Gelid swords with a level lock in your own words belong in bronze/silver chests but Xan weapons with level locks(which they have atm) belong in Gold Chests, the answer I'm looking for is in what way you are placing higher value on the xan weapons over a weapon from another PF.

I have never stated this. In fact I have stated the exact opposite twice.



I feel I have presented and defended my counter argument thoroughly. I will be leaving this thread now because you clearly are not able to even understand the points I am making and even less so able to refute them. While your hypothetical situation with IS weapons is an interesting one to consider I have clearly stated my opinion on the matter. I will restate it for the final time hopefully in a way that you will understand.

Any IS item that already has a level lock (eg. Fist of the Dominator) should drop from Bronze/Silver chests. Anything that does not have a level lock (eg. Frost-bound Reaper) should drop from Gold Chests. Should these items be given a level lock they could then be permitted to drop in Bronze/Silver chests.

I also maintain that these are good examples because when creating Collector the devs would have considered adding these items but instead rejected them, most likely because it would allow them to be equipped by characters below the intended minimum level.

In conclusion, Collector should not be used as a way for low level characters to subvert level locks. If FC decides to add items that will subvert level locks they should be very rare.

[Rockdizzle]

I'll drop the above vs below comparison, if no agreement can be made even if just a little than it's not worth pursuing anymore. *The problem was that I wasn't only assuming people in the US but it doesn't matter anymore since it's dropped now.

A TL lock on an instance is, again, not the same as a level lock on an item. Claiming that they are is as foolish as most of your other claims.

Except I said nothing about Title Level locks on instances, If you're having troubles reading(second language,under a rock etc) than tell me whats confusing you and I will have no problems making it clearer for you. I'm not a bad guy or anything.

"The weapons do in fact have level locks so the reasoning is not the same, you seem to be avoiding the fact that the xan weapons cant be worn at 150 even with enough skills."
I'm on AO as we speak, if you can find the word "instance" in this sentence I'll give you whatever you ask. If you meant in another sentence I can also copy/paste them and break them apart for you and find where I said "TL locked instance together".

I have never stated this. In fact I have stated the exact opposite twice.

2) To clarify, I said that the weapons should not drop there unless they are given a level lock. If they are to drop there and not have a level lock then they should drop from gold chests per the same reasoning as a WU. I am not so stupid as to walk into such an easy trap.

2) To answer your question, IS items that have level locks should drop from bronze and silver chests, the weapons shouldn't drop there at all or should be given level locks.

Huh? did you somehow forget what you wrote already, I gave you an example with a level locked IS weapon done in the same way as xan weapons and you're gonna try and tell me it's "not what you said". If you intended to write IS weapons with a 125+ level lock(which you didn't) than you should specify that before.

It doesn't change my example at all either way tho as it's only meant to match the situation with WU/xan weapons so I can get an answer out of you that doesn't involve "because you cant enter the PF".

114 =/= 190(tl6) but both are indeed 11 levels below the PF/instances so level locks of 114 and 190 on weapons use the same criteria on being 11 levels below the PFs level limit. I randomly picked 100 for the gelid but maybe I should of did 114 instead to help you understand better.
https://aoitems.com/item/280717/abandonment-of-the-xan/ a link JUST in case you didn't know the weapons have TL locks.

I feel I have presented and defended my counter argument thoroughly. I will be leaving this thread now because you clearly are not able to even understand the points I am making and even less so able to refute them. While your hypothetical situation with IS weapons is an interesting one to consider I have clearly stated my opinion on the matter. I will restate it for the final time hopefully in a way that you will understand.

Any IS item that already has a level lock (eg. Fist of the Dominator) should drop from Bronze/Silver chests. Anything that does not have a level lock (eg. Frost-bound Reaper) should drop from Gold Chests. Should these items be given a level lock they could then be permitted to drop in Bronze/Silver chests.

I also maintain that these are good examples because when creating Collector the devs would have considered adding these items but instead rejected them, most likely because it would allow them to be equipped by characters below the intended minimum level.

In conclusion, Collector should not be used as a way for low level characters to subvert level locks. If FC decides to add items that will subvert level locks they should be very rare.

You have the one argument of "It's in a level locked instance that lowbies can't enter" which I stated way above was a fine argument but I want more than just the 1 argument, in several posts I clearly asked for an answer that doesn't involve "level, locked and instance" but you either ignore the question and spit out the same sentence(s) and or misinterpret/change my question/reply to try and help your argument. Example below...

"Any IS item that already has a level lock (eg. Fist of the Dominator) should drop from Bronze/Silver chests. Anything that does not have a level lock (eg. Frost-bound Reaper) should drop from Gold Chests. Should these items be given a level lock they could then be permitted to drop in Bronze/Silver chests."
You've stated this 3 times now in different words due to misunderstandings on your part each time, I used this as a baseline for making my valid question(which you intend to avoid answering) and for making my comparison between a lvl locked gelid sword below the intended level(100,50,114 take your pick) and a lvl locked xan weapon also below intended lvl(has a TL6 req) which for some reason goes straight over your head each time.


Since the beginning I've been trying to get a 2nd argument out of you (whether it exists or not) so that we can come to an agreement that either the arguments for WUs in silver chests out weighs those against it (currently at 1 each) or vice versa.
I'm not asking for a biography on someone, I just want something that can be considered a 2nd argument otherwise it's a stalemate no matter how you spin it.
If you have a second argument please state it, otherwise I or someone else will find a 2nd argument for making WUs easier to get. If you don't want to help me help you than so be it.

[sultryvoltron]

This is not a pro/con list. You should never make game balance decisions based on a pro/con list. I don't need to provide anymore reasons why WUs should be hard to get. Twenty good reasons for WUs to drop from silver chests does not change there being one good reason not to. Making them easy to get for low level toons fundamentally breaks the idea of level locked instances.

You also seem to have lost sight of what this forum is for. Someone made a suggestion, I provide a counterargument with logical reasoning. You're not trying to convince me. You're trying to help OP convince Michi. I'm offering up logical reasons why the suggestion should not be implemented. You can try and deconstruct or refute my counterargument, but it won't do you any good and far you have not been able to without using hypothetical situations which are selected to try and force the answer that you are looking for. The bad part for you is that these are hypothetical because they violate the exact same laws of the game that I have presented as my counterargument. FC does not allow beacon warps into IS for a reason. For a long time they did not have WUs dropping in Collector for a reason. They put them into Gold Chests for a reason.

You can ask me to provde a second counterargument but I will not as there is no reason to. Convincing me to accept your point of view does not suddenly make this suggestion good nor does it invalidate the counterargument I have presented.

Make your case for why they SHOULD be implemented and be prepared for people to try and tear it to pieces.

[Rockdizzle]

This is not a pro/con list. You should never make game balance decisions based on a pro/con list. I don't need to provide anymore reasons why WUs should be hard to get. Twenty good reasons for WUs to drop from silver chests does not change there being one good reason not to. Making them easy to get for low level toons fundamentally breaks the idea of level locked instances.

No such pro/con list has been made by me or anyone on OPs side, the only pro/con argument made so far was a counter argument about xan weapons being OP(a con ofc). Obviously those with 200 twinks including me pointed out that xan weapons are the furthest thing from OP and instead minor boosts if not nerfs.

This is not the first time something game breaking or huge was done, it's not an anomaly anymore and shouldn't be treated like it's "unheard of".

Saying you don't need anymore arguments is a pretty bold statement also, either you assume you've won or think the 1 counter-argument holds it's weight alone.

You also seem to have lost sight of what this forum is for. Someone made a suggestion, I provide a counterargument with logical reasoning.

1)OP made his post with why it should drop in silver chests.(mostly regarding its value)
2)Counter argument that "it's from a level locked PF so it should be rare".(The argument you've restated several times)
3)Above counter argument countered with "The current droprate on silver/gold chests, the flood of new loot added and the pure randomness makes the odds of a WU rarer than what the opposing side thinks it should be", accounts from those who've farmed collector a lot and a link to a decent sized silver box opening thread added. (Was made before our convo started)
4)?? This is what I'm waiting for. Either you debunk the counter argument or you make a 2nd argument so the burden of proof falls back on us again.

You also seem to have lost sight of what this forum is for. Someone made a suggestion, I provide a counterargument with logical reasoning. You're not trying to convince me. You're trying to help OP convince Michi. I'm offering up logical reasons why the suggestion should not be implemented. You can try and deconstruct or refute my counterargument, but it won't do you any good and far you have not been able to without using hypothetical situations which are selected to try and force the answer that you are looking for.

Firstly you're making assumptions about my understanding of a forum and about the fact that I have to convince Michi. If I can't convince you(and others) than I have no chance at convincing Michi who listens to the players and not just a select few.
Michi won't do anything if there is a clear divide in opinions like in this thread, When the opposing side is convinced thru arguments than he will more likely do something about it. Remember the changes affect the players and not Michi.

Example: Trao'ler was nerfed and not removed due to the OP side(for removing it) understanding that support profs needed something with power while the opposing side(keeping it) understood that it was too strong and consistent in its current form. Not a straight up win but instead a compromise.
Now the Troa'ler is not the #1 choice anymore for support profs while also not the only viable choice for consistent 100% hit dmg.
This is how I've seen forum decisions being made about fixing stuff, it doesn't always work well in the case of current MP changes(most OP in pvp atm) and Troa'ler being added(mistake) but both were due to overwhelmingly 1 sided support and little to no opposition.
In the above case there was proof on both sides.

My stance is mostly "neutral/open to convincing" here as even i'm not narrow minded enough to not accept counter arguments against something that I may or may not want implemented. I have no problems listening to both sides and looking for more arguments on both sides as it's the smart thing to do in this situation. If it doesn't hurt the game I have no problems supporting it but if proof comes up saying that it does than I obviously switch sides.
Atm I'm on the OPs side meaning the 1 counter argument didn't convince me or anyone else, we made a counter to that argument and no one has debunked it since.


The burden of proof is indeed on OPs side and we gave our arguments (1 for countering your argument) , unless you've given up you're gonna have to debunk our counter at some point.

Either we are wrong when we say that the reward/time is indeed way too low even for a previously impossible item or the "level locked PF = gold chest" argument was more or less "jumping the gun".

Make your case for why they SHOULD be implemented and be prepared for people to try and tear it to pieces.

Thanks for the unneeded reminder, when you decide to tear apart our counter argument please do so.