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Thread: NT Testing / Feedback requested for latest patch on Testlive.

  1. #61
    It comes as an age old saying.... Crats are still better NTs than NTs...

    So question then is.. What is goal of NT... What is the profession best at...

    Area of Effect attacks.

    That is the one and only slot where NT is best. Everything else... Other profs are vastly superior.

    I did some fun on NT today, inferno, tower defense 2x, battlestation 3x. Let me be honest NT was great at towers... Doubles landed just fine in my nanoskill setup... New inferno missions... Just great, stand in middle and nuke around... Battlestations? It for sure does not feel as strong as it did right after 18.7 lunch. Now it feels just fine. And I mean it. Atleast in my combined scout setup.

    Allasround good fun. But in my heart I know many other professions would be better... Except maybe for towers.... There I got many kills... Simply because my nukes landed well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Michizure View Post
    This'll be fixed for the next patch

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Cratertina View Post
    It comes as an age old saying.... Crats are still better NTs than NTs...
    That's such an annoying statement, because it's mostly true.

    AoE's are nice, but they're not practical most of the time. We should be able to utterly destroy a single target, or I'd like to think we should, at least.
    Vinkera - Soli NT - 426k DPM - Setup
    Robbey - Soli Crat

    Lone anarchists - Tower of Babil

    Celez - Soli Doc
    Loaloa - Soli Enf
    Wondershot - Nano Soldier
    Robzor - Soli Engi
    Proserpexa - Opi Agent

    Trying out civilization - Storm

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Cratertina View Post
    It comes as an age old saying.... Crats are still better NTs than NTs...
    I approve of this.
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  4. #64
    Very often the pvm abilities of NTs is, in my opinion, grossly misrepresented.

    Just throwing this out there as I was actually surprised that this was possible, but I soloed lab director on my 76 NT in pretty standard/slightly subpar gear (130ish imps, Pred, Notum Hood, De'Valos Sleeves) with a few OBs (only Behe, HNQ, RRFE) and I barely had to kite. In fact I probably didn't need to kite at all if I had just stood there and spammed AOE nuke instead of trying to use CC and single nuke.

    I'm currently retwinking the toon for "perfect" and I think I will be able to easily solo it self-buffed. I barely soloed it on my 100 MA with lots of kiting years ago and it was in much better gear than pred and, in theory, should be much better at soloing a boss like that.

    What I think NTs need to define their direction along with my reasoning.
    • NS being more readily available is going to do wonders for low level NTs. Great job on that one.
      • This nano is downright mandatory for NT soloing.
    • Getting an entire line of GIVA style nukes will help with the problem of AOE nukes being almost unequivocally better than single nukes for PvM.
      • This should be top priority since it makes playing an NT feel good. They can already do OK damage, but the numbers are low and fast so when the mobs die quickly the DPM is low and it never really feels good to nuke a mob twice while it gets Full Auto'd down.
    • I think a great change would be to double the amount of absorb nanos and scale them more linearly.
      • NT defense relies on damage avoidance (evades and CC) followed by damage reduction (absorbs and reflects). The evades are OK, the CC is adequate, the reflects are great, the absorbs are the weak link.
    • Low level CC needs to be rescaled across all levels so that NTs start using their CC at an early level.
      • Calms go from Project Calm (284 reqs, 1:30 duration) to Specialized Bewilder (500 reqs, 1:03 duration {not a typo}) to Discourage Involvement (603 reqs, 5:00 duration) and if you're a froob it goes from 284 to 603. If you look at roots it's the same story. You don't teach NTs to use their CC toolset because currently they frankly are not even given the tools to use.
    • Long cast time and recharge time vanilla nukes need to hit like a damn truck. As it is currently you will rarely or never cast them.
      • If these won't be changed to do more damage they need removed from the database because they just add useless bloat to an already huge nano list.
    • Doubles and Tactical Nukes sharing a cooldown is a very weird change.
      • You will likely never balance them so that both are viable. Change them in a different way, for example removing pierce reflect from Doubles (compensate another way) and keeping it on Tactical.
    • Low level NTs desperately need a way to keep their nano up.
      • When an NT runs out of nano they become sitting ducks with both offense and defense tied to casting. When you consider that Nanobot Shelter becomes available as soon as Scheol then you really start to notice the lack of nano early on.
    • SL nukes are a mess. Redo them from scratch.
      • Maybe this is what becomes the new GIVA style nukes.
    • Encourage/enhance the use of special effect nukes.
      • These things are super unique and, for the most part, super ignored.


    And by the way, I'm not anti-NT. I'm just anti-sandbagging.
    The Fine Arts:
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    Xirayne: I couldn't care less about who is clueless or what the exact definition "real" pvp is in ao, I want "fun" pvp!

  5. #65
    We can be good, but not agent or engi good. Come on now. :P

    Anyway, this is all really good input. Most of it's on my to-do list. In terms of priority, I had baby GIVA's at the top (for obvious reasons), followed by SL nukes.

    The 155 and lower level SL nukes are the biggest mess, and should be spaced apart and sorted a bit. SL Nukes would have little scaling bonuses for having more skill than required. However, they would have hidden down scaling values, also. (This "Nuke OE" thing I've been harping about)

    Lowbie nano issues. I wanted the IW line expanded down to address this, but we got Nano Heal instead. It works ok, but it's not available until 80, and the nano issues start earlier than that. I still wouldn't mind a little nanopool buff, too. That's not super important, but it would be nice.

    Absorbs could be looked at. The nano docs had them all self, which is great in some ways, bad in others. It's handy when you're fighting something tough not having to swap targets, but you lose the ability to buff others, obviously. They could use a bit of a re-work overall with values and such. Enf's get a few lower versions and we don't, so there could be one or two lower ones added in. Scaling here would be awesome.

    CC is definitely weird. I had hoped that we could see a change to roots. (us and agents/crats/fixers/traders/etc) Making them have a shorter recharge and some kind of line cooldown instead of a long, debilitating global recharge. Our first RK calm is pretty bad, although I think it's the same for others. The first SL one is great, but the timer is really short, as you pointed out. There's definitely room for improvement here.

    Special effect nukes have a lot of potential. When I see a possibility of changes happening there, I'll work some stuff out. They haven't seen much happen since release, so it's a bit overdue.

    There's a lot I didn't touch on, but you get the idea. Pretty much everything is just about what I was thinking.

    Anyway, Michi's on a tight schedule, so I don't know when anything new will happen. But, you can see there's a bit that could be done to smooth things out across the board.
    Vinkera - Soli NT - 426k DPM - Setup
    Robbey - Soli Crat

    Lone anarchists - Tower of Babil

    Celez - Soli Doc
    Loaloa - Soli Enf
    Wondershot - Nano Soldier
    Robzor - Soli Engi
    Proserpexa - Opi Agent

    Trying out civilization - Storm

  6. #66
    Didn't see this mentioned yet:
    Testlive Patch Notes: 18.8.3.4

    Patch Date: August 27, 2015

    Profession Changes:
    NT:
    Double Nanos: The second hit will not pierce reflects
    Delayed Nukes: Shortened line cooldown to 5s
    Garuk's Improved Viral Assault: Reverted cooldown back to 10s
    Nullity Sphere MK I had its price reduced
    General Changes:
    Recall Beacon items have a 5s activation time

  7. #67
    Post #36.

    I actually beat Michi to it.
    Vinkera - Soli NT - 426k DPM - Setup
    Robbey - Soli Crat

    Lone anarchists - Tower of Babil

    Celez - Soli Doc
    Loaloa - Soli Enf
    Wondershot - Nano Soldier
    Robzor - Soli Engi
    Proserpexa - Opi Agent

    Trying out civilization - Storm

  8. #68
    I can see the point of local cooldowns, so NTs are not just hitting 1 nuke entire fight. Ok. But making the recharge and cooldowns longer, just kind of defeats the point. Cast times being capped still leaves you with worse problems imo.

    Layers in current form doesn't even soak 1 inf mob hit, not even talking pande. Glass we are, cannons we are not.

    Def focus- id like to see a castable 2 hit blocker. Now before the pitchforks pop up, give it a 1-2m cooldown and viola. Makes it un-spam-able but offers at least an extra 3s of pve survival in def focus.

    Off focus- should be more like "berserk mode" with double dmg and zero defense. I know that's a bit extreme example but whats the point in having a focus if the only difference is being able to cast 2-4 nanos???

    IMO if an NT cant win 60% of duels vs any prof then the entire purpose of offensive focus is a fail. We should absolutely be able to blast through any profs defenses or at least have a 50/50 chance to do so before they race to eat our health to zero in a duel.
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  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Psikie View Post
    Off focus- should be more like "berserk mode" with double dmg and zero defense. I know that's a bit extreme example but whats the point in having a focus if the only difference is being able to cast 2-4 nanos???
    I'm certainly not opposed to this idea. It has potential in both PVP and PVM to turn things more toward what I'd expect from NT's.

    Simply buffing damage in offensive focus is one option to make it work, but it would be more fun if there were multiple nukes that would then be an option. There would be little nukes on really short cooldowns, medium nukes on medium cooldowns, and nukes like GIVA on longer cooldowns. Because the cooldowns would be varied, you wouldn't have a static nuke order. It would always be different depending on the best nuke that's become available. This concept was proposed in the past, but... never really amounted to anything.

    As much as I like Nanobot Aegis, and I don't want to give it up completely, having next to no defense in offensive focus is an interesting concept. It might be fair to say that Nanobot Aegis is in some ways a hindrance to really letting us have glass cannon potential. The flip side to that is, it opens you up to being nearly insta-killed all the time. Maybe a compromise there is weakening Nanobot Aegis (which we're now assuming would be Def Focus only, in this situation) and boosting Nanobot Shelter a tad. The nano documents had Superior Nanobot Shelter at 45% reflect as opposed to 25 possibly for this reason, just for the record.

    This idea does give a more well defined set of options. One being extremely tough to kill in Def Focus, Off Focus being utter destruction with next to no regard for defense. At the moment, if we can seriously consider that one focus is just not worth using, then we have failed to properly define them with their own unique qualities.

    I'm certainly open to opinions / comments / concerns on this.
    Vinkera - Soli NT - 426k DPM - Setup
    Robbey - Soli Crat

    Lone anarchists - Tower of Babil

    Celez - Soli Doc
    Loaloa - Soli Enf
    Wondershot - Nano Soldier
    Robzor - Soli Engi
    Proserpexa - Opi Agent

    Trying out civilization - Storm

  10. #70
    I'm of the opinion that def focus is better in most situations at all TLs, especially with the current testlive changes.
    The Fine Arts:
    Mime | Surgery | Zen
    The Traitor


    Xirayne: I couldn't care less about who is clueless or what the exact definition "real" pvp is in ao, I want "fun" pvp!

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Vinkera View Post
    One being extremely tough to kill in Def Focus, Off Focus being utter destruction with next to no regard for defense.
    I'm not particularly fond of the idea of having that much disparity between the two modes. The whole "glass cannon" thing promotes a style of play characterized by cheap kills and quick deaths.
    I am wiser than any god or scientist, for I have squared the circle and cubed Earth's sphere, thus I have created 4 simultaneous separate 24 hour days within a 4-corner (as in a 4-corner classroom) rotation of Earth. See for yourself the absolute proof.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by drainbamage View Post
    I'm not particularly fond of the idea of having that much disparity between the two modes. The whole "glass cannon" thing promotes a style of play characterized by cheap kills and quick deaths.
    Very good point. This is basically the situation Agents are in and everyone hates it and thinks they are pretty broken OP.
    The Fine Arts:
    Mime | Surgery | Zen
    The Traitor


    Xirayne: I couldn't care less about who is clueless or what the exact definition "real" pvp is in ao, I want "fun" pvp!

  13. #73
    Well imo NT's need a nuke that does medium-low damage and gives a % of the damage dealt back as nano to the caster.. So that NT's got something to spam to spam to keep their nano up. I'd suggest it being same req's/ damage as the NR debuff line, but instead giving 50% of the damage dealt back as nano.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Solams View Post
    Well imo NT's need a nuke that does medium-low damage and gives a % of the damage dealt back as nano to the caster.. So that NT's got something to spam to spam to keep their nano up.
    Similar to shades damage to health? Or keeper dimach-health to name a few examples. Interesting.
    ~Anyone can level, but only the wise gain experience~

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  15. #75
    Then again, if there is little difference between offensive and defensive ... what would the point be to have those styles?
    "A wee bit offensive" vs "Slightly more defensive" ...?
    For "offensive" to be viable, it must deliver a real benefit. There should obviously be a risk, but the benefit must be worth it too. Naturally that gravitates towards "glass + canon"-style. Otherwise, we would stay in defensive mode. Defensive would still get the job done, but it would take a few nukes extra.

    I fully agree it is a very hard act to balance. A strong offensive promotes hit'n'run, gank'n'hide style, and a make the pvp-forums glow red hot.
    Perhaps it's not really possible?
    Perhaps it could be limited to PvM only?
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  16. #76
    To combat the solo problem, what if NTs got a sort of 'mirror images' thingy? So basically they can conjure up a copy of themselves that does nothing but cast a medium taunt to act as a mini tank?
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  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by mechanuf View Post
    Then again, if there is little difference between offensive and defensive ... what would the point be to have those styles?
    "A wee bit offensive" vs "Slightly more defensive" ...?
    For "offensive" to be viable, it must deliver a real benefit. There should obviously be a risk, but the benefit must be worth it too. Naturally that gravitates towards "glass + canon"-style. Otherwise, we would stay in defensive mode. Defensive would still get the job done, but it would take a few nukes extra.

    I fully agree it is a very hard act to balance. A strong offensive promotes hit'n'run, gank'n'hide style, and a make the pvp-forums glow red hot.
    Perhaps it's not really possible?
    Perhaps it could be limited to PvM only?
    Well for one thing, offensive and defensive focus were never styles, but simply a crude mechanism to prevent NTs from using NS and double/triple at the same time.

    Assuming this is a mechanic worth keeping, the differences do not have to be as simplistic as "more damage" vs. "more defense". Glass cannon is not the natural style, it's the lazy, unbalanced and frustrating style.

    All sorts of offense-oriented effects could be linked to offensive focus. Something such as a debuff that makes use of the newly added heal reactivity modifier, just as an example.
    I am wiser than any god or scientist, for I have squared the circle and cubed Earth's sphere, thus I have created 4 simultaneous separate 24 hour days within a 4-corner (as in a 4-corner classroom) rotation of Earth. See for yourself the absolute proof.

  18. #78
    Yeah, it is that way def focus is way better... There is scope for offensive focus in pvm... Say double nuke damage... Double nanocost... Something.

    More i play nt, more I think... NT has little real pvm power, been doing some inferno quests, escorting a friend around anansis... Just fealt weak.

    So NTs need some kind of pvm buff, I can hardly imagine a profession that is worst for pvm than NT.

    Keeper has poor damage, but can solo 250 dyna no problem for example...

    NT needs a fundamental role change. Right now its medium damage, no survivability or low damage with low survivability. If damage was DOUBLE, it would be worthwhile seriusly playing...

    But then pvp? Imagine outrage if NT did even more pvp Dd.
    Quote Originally Posted by Michizure View Post
    This'll be fixed for the next patch

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Solams View Post
    Well imo NT's need a nuke that does medium-low damage and gives a % of the damage dealt back as nano to the caster.. So that NT's got something to spam to spam to keep their nano up.
    That's not a bad idea. One thing's for sure, our nukes are old. You could consider them some of the oldest "weapons" in the game that are still used.

    I'd still like to get lower versions of IW, but this idea itself is pretty good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raggy View Post
    To combat the solo problem, what if NTs got a sort of 'mirror images' thingy? So basically they can conjure up a copy of themselves that does nothing but cast a medium taunt to act as a mini tank?
    This idea has been presented many times in the past, but it tends to fall on deaf ears. I'm not opposed to it for PVM. PVP, it would be weird.

    Having something else to take a little bit of the beating in PVM may not be a bad thing, though. Almost everyone else has some form of heals or pets. We did get NS in the store, which is huge, but in an endurance type fight, we have limited options for a good chunk of our leveling career. Even at 220, some fights others do with ease come down to making sacrificial offerings to the RNG gods for us to win.

    Scary Spider is maybe the best example. We CAN kill it, but it's all RNG.

    Quote Originally Posted by drainbamage View Post
    All sorts of offense-oriented effects could be linked to offensive focus. Something such as a debuff that makes use of the newly added heal reactivity modifier, just as an example.
    If we were to expand on Offensive Focus to the point of "glass cannon", my vision of that would be extremely high damage, and extremely limited defense.

    And, on the "limited defense" side, I say that quite literally. Blocking the usage of blinds, roots, Nanobot Aegis, and even our evade buffs sound like reasonable trade-offs to me, as long as the power Offensive focus offers is worth that kind of sacrifice.

    With the changes on test, it isn't. It's trending more toward scraping the dual focus idea. But now, I see dual focuses as a great opportunity that should be expanded on. It gives us great potential to have what others wanted from NT's for so long, but it just never paned out for them :P

    Quote Originally Posted by Cratertina View Post
    So NTs need some kind of pvm buff, I can hardly imagine a profession that is worst for pvm than NT.
    There are some places where my NT shines over my other 220's. Inner Sanctum comes to mind. She can clear that place with ease, while my crat get slapped like a little chump. She can solo Moxy quickly and with no problems.

    The situations she's got a clear edge are very limited, though.
    Last edited by Vinkera; Sep 2nd, 2015 at 12:22:32.
    Vinkera - Soli NT - 426k DPM - Setup
    Robbey - Soli Crat

    Lone anarchists - Tower of Babil

    Celez - Soli Doc
    Loaloa - Soli Enf
    Wondershot - Nano Soldier
    Robzor - Soli Engi
    Proserpexa - Opi Agent

    Trying out civilization - Storm

  20. #80
    Hehe, will try IS with NT... But point still stands.

    I like removing blinds and roots from offensive build, great idea.. But NTs need outerwordly damage.

    !afk playing NT.
    Quote Originally Posted by Michizure View Post
    This'll be fixed for the next patch

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