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Thread: "Release Me Now", root/snare removal discussion

  1. #1

    "Release Me Now", root/snare removal discussion

    I would like to open discussion of this nano and didn't see any other threads about it. I don't currently have any dog in this fight so don't take offense.

    1. "Release Me Now" vs. future roots and snares

    Will "Release Me Now" remain in it's current form if/when crowd control is rebalanced in general? The original rebalance documents have all roots and snares moving to extremely temporary measures, for instance in the nano document the top Fixer root/snare/aoe snare have durations of 7s/15s/10s respectively, as well as cooldowns. With those changes "Release Me Now" seems like overkill.

    2. Is 100% immunity fair, even for a short duration?
    Few other tools offer such large immunity for such little sacrifice. It already removes the root/snare entirely, does it require the immunity in addition? MoR + "Release Me Now" provide 30s of complete immunity to roots and snares, in addition to passive immunity (up to 80% for keeper and 45% for shade) and nanoresist. Potentially unbalancing, especially in a duel situation, against a profession that needs to keep the opponent at a distance. Would no immunity and a much shorter cooldown be more fair to both sides (f.ex. removal once per 45s).

    3a. Investment/return compared to other removal tools
    Compared to other root/snare removal tools*, "Release Me Now" requires minimal effort and is more effective - only 100 nanoskills and it completely removes the offending CC. An MA's "Upon a Wave of Summer" requires significant IP investment. Removal perks require...perks. Fixer instant removal nano requires nanoskills 17x as high. And finally almost all "classic" removal nanos are level locked, meaning they are always extremely weak against CC at given levels because the roots/snares themselves are not level locked. Also will professions like Bureaucrat/Fixer/Agent get their removal tools consolidated? Having separate snare and root removals is an annoyance.

    3b. Investment/return compared to other immunity tools
    Compared to other temporary immunities*, "Release Me Now" requires minimal effort and is more effective - only 100 nanoskills and it offers 15s of 100% immunity. Bureaucrat immunity provides 10s of 40% immunity with a 10s cast time. MP's SS provides 20s of 60% immunity (TL7 only). Spatial Displacement's Great Purge provides 20s of 100% immunity at a cost of 10 perks.

    4. Enforcer/Soldier inclusion
    Why is enforcer included? Their ability to break root/snares is already superior to every other melee profession. If Enforcers, who can escape CC every 15s with rage get access, why not MAs, who can only escape every 60s?

    Why is soldier included with the 3 melee professions on this nano? Why are they somehow more deserving than the other professions with no CC removal tools (Doctor, Engineer)? If soldier gets access for no especially evident reason, why not just make it a general nano? Even professions who are supposed to have mastery over CC like Bureacrats would find an instant total removal tool useful.




    *Except the new agent escape nanos, apparently.
    New Engine - Announced: June 2007 ETA: Soon™ I'm speechless (June 2015)
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    New TL7 Pets - Announced: March 2009 ETA: Uh...
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  2. #2
    Definitely worthy of a second look.

    GreaterThanBlack, while generally a critical oaf, eloquently said earlier today that roots/snares should be balanced by

    1. durations
    2. chance to break on damage

    Which I think is a far better method than blanket immunities.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Louderer789 View Post
    (up to 80% for keeper and 45% for shade)
    I would love to have enough perks on my Keeper and Shade to actually perk Spatial Displacement, but sadly that's not even in the realm of possibilities without detrimental sacrifices.


    With the coming changes all CC should be removable with 1 FM stim.
    I would personally like to see a personal lockout if you get Rooted/Snared which gives you ~15s immunity from being resnared such that everyone can clear CC with 1 stim, then not have to worry for the next ~12s (lag, FM execution time, noticing you're CC'd)

    220s "Wakizaka", "Sneakygank", "Wakimango", "Wakisolja", "Tardersauce", "Bushwaki", "Midgetgank", "Bugfixxx", "Ramsbottom", "Paskadoc"
    200s Chrisd, Malema, Delbaeth
    TL5s Youfail, Bugfixx, Riothamus, Johndee

    Proud President of Haven | TL5 PvP


  4. #4
    If CC is going down this road of being completely pointless, any evade class the relies on it is going to need serious buffs.
    Pricecuts - 220 Trader
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    Raggy - 220 Bureaucrat || Raggeh - 220 Fixer | Back as 'Raggys' - Shade for the time being. | Nuclei - 217 Nanotechnician || Nanobiology - 214 Doctor

    Tip #743: As noted in Tip #244, tea bags have an infinite variety of uses. However, there's always one jerk who will want to give you crap over drinking tea. Particularly if in a new town, use this as an opportunity to assert yourself. Any drunken idiot can win a bar fight. It takes a real man to win a bar fight while enjoying a cup of Earl Grey.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Wakizaka View Post
    I would love to have enough perks on my Keeper and Shade to actually perk Spatial Displacement, but sadly that's not even in the realm of possibilities without detrimental sacrifices.
    No one can anymore, since the addition of Hit and Run for Fixer (although the argument that Fixers used to get SD "for free" because they lacked any other useful place to put the perks is a pretty bad one). The fact that you aren't willing suggests roots and snares aren't that troublesome. Although personally I think SD should be shrunk down to a 5 point line, with 5% root/snare immunity per perk and with Purge 1 at SD2, Purge 2 at SD4 and Great Purge at SD5 (open to all professions).
    With the coming changes all CC should be removable with 1 FM stim.
    I would personally like to see a personal lockout if you get Rooted/Snared which gives you ~15s immunity from being resnared such that everyone can clear CC with 1 stim, then not have to worry for the next ~12s (lag, FM execution time, noticing you're CC'd)
    So...roots will last 7 seconds, be instantly removable by everyone, and then can't be attempted again? The immunity would only make any sense at all if roots landed every time and lasted the duration. I'd like for my fixer to have 20s immunity to aim shots after having his HP debuffed 30% by an agent, but it would be silly to ask for that.
    New Engine - Announced: June 2007 ETA: Soon™ I'm speechless (June 2015)
    Rebalancing - Announced: January 2009 ETA: December 21, 2012 Started! (April 2015)
    New TL7 Pets - Announced: March 2009 ETA: Uh...
    AS Changes - Announced: July 2009 ETA: TBA
    Parry/Riposte - Announced: October 2009 ETA: ??? Did it! (April 2015)
    Perk Changes - Announced: October 2009 ETA: Right after server merge Started! (April 2015)
    Breed Change - Announced: November 2009 ETA: Hell freezing They did it!!! (Oct 2012)
    Beta Server - Announced: January 2010 ETA: Pigs Flying Did it! (Feb 2014)

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Louderer789 View Post
    The fact that you aren't willing suggests roots and snares aren't that troublesome.
    Actually I've tried dropping Bio-Cocoon, Blessing, and Holy Mark in favour of SD; I never tried dropping Reaver because of obvious reasons; and all three of those options get you killed faster than if you don't have SD perked. My Shade ran around without TR perked for ages with SD perked instead, and some other combinations, but ended up lacking enough killing power for a lot of people and actually preferred 2+ NR perks and only 4 SD perks instead for surviving being CC'd to death.

    Roots & snares are troublesome, and unfortunately the loss of perks for Keepers & Shades in order to perk decently into Anti-CC leaves them either toothless or even easier to kill.

    220s "Wakizaka", "Sneakygank", "Wakimango", "Wakisolja", "Tardersauce", "Bushwaki", "Midgetgank", "Bugfixxx", "Ramsbottom", "Paskadoc"
    200s Chrisd, Malema, Delbaeth
    TL5s Youfail, Bugfixx, Riothamus, Johndee

    Proud President of Haven | TL5 PvP


  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Wakizaka View Post
    Roots & snares are troublesome, and unfortunately the loss of perks for Keepers & Shades in order to perk decently into Anti-CC leaves them either toothless or even easier to kill.
    You already get a 35% immunity to Snare and Roots with a 20s cycling reduction from this. Which is the same as having SD9 perked at all times anyway.

    I fail to see the problem.
    Pricecuts - 220 Trader
    Feel free to contact me via PM or in-game.

    Raggy - 220 Bureaucrat || Raggeh - 220 Fixer | Back as 'Raggys' - Shade for the time being. | Nuclei - 217 Nanotechnician || Nanobiology - 214 Doctor

    Tip #743: As noted in Tip #244, tea bags have an infinite variety of uses. However, there's always one jerk who will want to give you crap over drinking tea. Particularly if in a new town, use this as an opportunity to assert yourself. Any drunken idiot can win a bar fight. It takes a real man to win a bar fight while enjoying a cup of Earl Grey.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Raggy View Post
    You already get a 35% immunity to Snare and Roots with a 20s cycling reduction from this. Which is the same as having SD9 perked at all times anyway.

    I fail to see the problem.
    Enervate has never been great, although I always had it running. With 18.7, it will be much better as roots/snares don't last as long as the reduction every 20s is a joke when you can get snared for 20+ minutes. Also, even with 2.3K NR on my Keeper and Enervate running, I was still getting rooted/snared by anything with more than 1k nanoskills.

    220s "Wakizaka", "Sneakygank", "Wakimango", "Wakisolja", "Tardersauce", "Bushwaki", "Midgetgank", "Bugfixxx", "Ramsbottom", "Paskadoc"
    200s Chrisd, Malema, Delbaeth
    TL5s Youfail, Bugfixx, Riothamus, Johndee

    Proud President of Haven | TL5 PvP


  9. #9
    The real problem here is the insanity level proliferation of NANO based roots/snares vs the relatively balanced PERK/MA attack/WEAPON PROC based system.

    Consider: If you removed every snare/root nano from game, what would be left?

    Agent: tranquilizer (max -1200RS, 25s

    Crat: Confound with Rules (-900 RS, 22s)

    Engi/advy/enf/Shade: Full frontal: snare 40s, -600RS) but TS vs NR

    Advy/enf/Shade: Confinement (root 40s) again TS vs NR

    Enf: Crush bone -400RS 8s

    MA: touch of sai fung (-1000RS, 15s), 300 UWoS (-800RS, 3s), 300 flower of life (-550, 10s), Shen (-500, 40s),

    General: Grafts, cherry blossom/Ice arrows of Alb special arrows (-200 for 15s)

    I am probably missing a few perk actions, but I think I've got most of them.

    Basically all these have very short durations, and you have to be very careful when you attempt to use them in order that they land - i.e. they are not spammable.

    Whereas, nanos on the other hand are spammable, are retardedly long durations - like look at the 3s duration on UWoS compared to spin nanoweb which has like a 27 minute duration... who designed that? like WTF. Honestly, UWoS is probably a bit short - I'd increase it to like 12s or something, but generally speaking the bigger the modifier, the shorter the duration, but NOTHING in game should have a movement impairing modifier that lasts more than 1 minute at the absolute maximum.

    Why?

    Because combat encounters that exceed 1 minute are BORING.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Raggy View Post
    You already get a 35% immunity to Snare and Roots with a 20s cycling reduction from this. Which is the same as having SD9 perked at all times anyway.

    I fail to see the problem.
    With statements like these, I can see that you've never played endgame Keeper in pvp.

    The enervate 35% doesn't help much, if at all. Stack it with SD10 and have 70%+ root/snare resist and I'm still constantly getting rooted by crats, nts, fixers, traders - gladly the perk actions help me a lot but its still huge sacrifice to perk that line. So no, even 70+% resist isnt really worth it at the current state of roots and how easy they land ANYWAY regardless of that big resist.

    This whole original post seems out of place, too. Have you actually had long time experience playing melee toons in pvp? I have pvp'd extensively with MA, shade and keeper and this whole suggestion is absurd. I suggest you to go play those profs in battlestation for 5+ years and you'll probably laugh to your very own suggestion. Not trying to be hostile towards you, but damn at the absurd OPd'ness of spammable roots/snares against melee toons. It's ridiculous at the moment, and with that cool down Release me Now wont offer much of help to melee classes (even after the proposed changes, which might come in 5 years or so?). In fact I'd even suggest getting some more tools for melee classes to battle this massive, massive disadvantage against ranged classes.
    Last edited by jooo; Mar 13th, 2015 at 09:31:49. Reason: typos

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by jooo View Post
    STUFF
    My Keeper is 214 and I PvPd on him an awful lot back at 150 when S10 was a thing and then at 200 when S10 wasn't a thing and I can honestly say that while roots and snares were annoying they are no where near as bad as you make them out to be. The only problematic things were the durations on some snares.

    Also are you trying to tell me that roots and snares are landing reliably on you with 2k+ NR and an innate 70% resist?

    Because if you are, you can stop being so rediculous right now. Go actually play a Prof that has roots and snares and try landing them reliably on an SD char. Ontop of the fact that methods to counter these things already exist in abundance.

    The grass isn't always greener.
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    Raggy - 220 Bureaucrat || Raggeh - 220 Fixer | Back as 'Raggys' - Shade for the time being. | Nuclei - 217 Nanotechnician || Nanobiology - 214 Doctor

    Tip #743: As noted in Tip #244, tea bags have an infinite variety of uses. However, there's always one jerk who will want to give you crap over drinking tea. Particularly if in a new town, use this as an opportunity to assert yourself. Any drunken idiot can win a bar fight. It takes a real man to win a bar fight while enjoying a cup of Earl Grey.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Raggy View Post
    My Keeper is 214 and I PvPd on him an awful lot back at 150 when S10 was a thing and then at 200 when S10 wasn't a thing and I can honestly say that while roots and snares were annoying they are no where near as bad as you make them out to be. The only problematic things were the durations on some snares.

    Also are you trying to tell me that roots and snares are landing reliably on you with 2k+ NR and an innate 70% resist?

    Because if you are, you can stop being so rediculous right now. Go actually play a Prof that has roots and snares and try landing them reliably on an SD char. Ontop of the fact that methods to counter these things already exist in abundance.

    The grass isn't always greener.
    I was thinking about how current roots are OP just yesterday while trying to catch some NT with my 150 adv in BS. It doesn't take any skill (just decent setup) to land unbreakable root with 4min 48sec duration that takes 4 ql175 FM stims to remove it to render even the best melee toons completely useless. High NR doesn't really help because it'll land eventually and by the time you remove it using your FM stims your opponent has already casted new one on you. Also SD is not always an option, especially at lower levels, where perk actions are scarce. Roots and snares in its current form are simply OP'd and anyone who advocates this has clearly biased opinion.
    Last edited by Scottik; Mar 13th, 2015 at 11:52:40.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Scottik View Post
    I was thinking about how current roots are OP just yesterday while trying to catch some NT with my 150 adv in BS. It doesn't take any skill (just decent setup) to land unbreakable root with 4min 48sec duration that takes 4 ql175 FM stims to remove it to render even the best melee toons completely useless. High NR doesn't really help because it'll land eventually and by the time you remove it using your FM stims your opponent has already casted new one on you. Also SD is not always an option, especially at lower levels, where perk actions are scarce. Roots and snares in its current form are simply OP'd and anyone who advocates this has clearly biased opinion.
    When it takes me at least 10 attempts to land my best root while fully drained at 220 against someone with no perks in SD and maxed NR. I find someone claiming that they get constantly rooted with 70% innate resistance quite frankly a load of BS.

    Also that NT isn't doing any damage to you as he spams the root in vain against an Advy on /follow. Also assuming you're a Melee Advy because a Ranged Advy would have no issue chasing down and killing an NT outside of NS, to which I say, that's your own fault.
    Last edited by Raggy; Mar 13th, 2015 at 12:23:47.
    Pricecuts - 220 Trader
    Feel free to contact me via PM or in-game.

    Raggy - 220 Bureaucrat || Raggeh - 220 Fixer | Back as 'Raggys' - Shade for the time being. | Nuclei - 217 Nanotechnician || Nanobiology - 214 Doctor

    Tip #743: As noted in Tip #244, tea bags have an infinite variety of uses. However, there's always one jerk who will want to give you crap over drinking tea. Particularly if in a new town, use this as an opportunity to assert yourself. Any drunken idiot can win a bar fight. It takes a real man to win a bar fight while enjoying a cup of Earl Grey.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Raggy View Post
    When it takes me at least 10 attempts to land my best root while fully drained at 220 against someone with no perks in SD and maxed NR. I find someone claiming that they get constantly rooted with 70% innate resistance quite frankly a load of BS.
    First of all I'm not arguing how easy or not is to land root/snare but what ridiculous duration it has. Sure, lower the attack check down to reasonable levels but don't make it last more than couple of seconds. Besides, I made reply to your previous post where you're mentioning tl5 melee chars specifically.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raggy View Post
    Also that NT isn't doing any damage to you as he spams the root in vain against an Advy on /follow.
    Yes, he can. FM stim has execution time of 1s with 5s recharge. And I have to use 4 of them. Which gives NT precisely 24s time window and since his roots are instant, it's very likely he'll have time to cast some debuffs and nukes in between. And it's not like he has to spam root this whole time, it just doesn't happen. And if some other player of opposite faction comes along I'm just as useful as shooting target.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raggy View Post
    Also assuming you're a Melee Advy because a Ranged Advy would have no issue chasing down and killing an NT outside of NS, to which I say, that's your own fault.
    What? So I pick one of "legit" setups for adv and it's my fault? Clearly it's not root mechanics that need fixing, everyone should just roll ranged profession from now on I guess...
    Last edited by Scottik; Mar 13th, 2015 at 14:06:24.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Scottik View Post
    First of all I'm not arguing how easy or not is to land root/snare but what ridiculous duration it has. Sure, lower the attack check down to reasonable levels but don't make it last more than couple of seconds. Besides, I made reply to your previous post where you're mentioning tl5 melee chars specifically.
    The durations ARE being lowered in 18.7 along with a plethora of new methods of removing roots and snares. And as I said before, my Keeper had little trouble with snares and roots at the levels I mentioned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scottik View Post
    Yes, he can. FM stim has execution time of 1s with 5s recharge. And I have to use 4 of them. Which gives NT precisely 24s time window and since his roots are instant, it's very likely he'll have time to cast some debuffs and nukes in between. And it's not like he has to spam root this whole time, it just doesn't happen. And if some other player of opposite faction comes along I'm just as useful as shooting target.
    The best root the NT has access to at this level has a 1s cast cap time and a 4.33s recharge. Meaning he would have to stand still for 1s to cast and then be unable to damage you for 4.33s, more than enough time for you to counter it since it isn't going to land 100% of the time since the checks are pretty stupid. During all this time of you being rooted the NT has done nothing else, whereas if you were Ranged you would have just killed him with perks at a distance.


    Quote Originally Posted by Scottik View Post
    What? So I pick one of "legit" setups for adv and it's my fault? Clearly it's not root mechanics that need fixing, everyone should just roll ranged profession from now on I guess...
    I don't go into PvP crying about how I can't damage anyone as an MA Trader because my AR is too low. I swapped back to Shotgun so I could PvP reliably. Don't fob the blame onto something else because you're using a suboptimal build in PvP
    Pricecuts - 220 Trader
    Feel free to contact me via PM or in-game.

    Raggy - 220 Bureaucrat || Raggeh - 220 Fixer | Back as 'Raggys' - Shade for the time being. | Nuclei - 217 Nanotechnician || Nanobiology - 214 Doctor

    Tip #743: As noted in Tip #244, tea bags have an infinite variety of uses. However, there's always one jerk who will want to give you crap over drinking tea. Particularly if in a new town, use this as an opportunity to assert yourself. Any drunken idiot can win a bar fight. It takes a real man to win a bar fight while enjoying a cup of Earl Grey.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Raggy View Post
    The durations ARE being lowered in 18.7 along with a plethora of new methods of removing roots and snares. And as I said before, my Keeper had little trouble with snares and roots at the levels I mentioned.
    I know they are and I'm glad they are being changed, however I made reply to your post where you indicated that roots/snares in its CURRENT form are very little or no issue at all, which is simply not true in my opinion. If your keeper has no issue with them, good for you, however my experience differs dramatically. And apparentelly many other players and devs as well share similar opinion, hence the changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raggy View Post
    The best root the NT has access to at this level has a 1s cast cap time and a 4.33s recharge. Meaning he would have to stand still for 1s to cast and then be unable to damage you for 4.33s, more than enough time for you to counter it since it isn't going to land 100% of the time since the checks are pretty stupid. During all this time of you being rooted the NT has done nothing else, whereas if you were Ranged you would have just killed him with perks at a distance.
    True my fault, I didn't take recharge into consideration, however in reality they always have time to cast NR debuff blind or nuke in between. Or trader landing his drain(s). Or fixer just waiting till my DoF runs out so he can alpha me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raggy View Post
    I don't go into PvP crying about how I can't damage anyone as an MA Trader because my AR is too low. I swapped back to Shotgun so I could PvP reliably. Don't fob the blame onto something else because you're using a suboptimal build in PvP
    That's logical fallacy. MA Trader has no official support for MA toolset. For example If I picked ranged energy weapon on my adv and I'd start complaining about lack of AR, then yes, your point would be valid. But 1he is fully supported weapon choice for adv, why should it be excluded from mass PvP? And what about other melee profs that have no ranged option? Should they just switch to ranged too?
    Last edited by Scottik; Mar 13th, 2015 at 15:23:19.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Louderer789 View Post
    3a. Investment/return compared to other removal tools
    Compared to other root/snare removal tools*, "Release Me Now" requires minimal effort and is more effective - only 100 nanoskills and it completely removes the offending CC. An MA's "Upon a Wave of Summer" requires significant IP investment. Removal perks require...perks. Fixer instant removal nano requires nanoskills 17x as high. And finally almost all "classic" removal nanos are level locked, meaning they are always extremely weak against CC at given levels because the roots/snares themselves are not level locked. Also will professions like Bureaucrat/Fixer/Agent get their removal tools consolidated? Having separate snare and root removals is an annoyance.

    3b. Investment/return compared to other immunity tools
    Compared to other temporary immunities*, "Release Me Now" requires minimal effort and is more effective - only 100 nanoskills and it offers 15s of 100% immunity. Bureaucrat immunity provides 10s of 40% immunity with a 10s cast time. MP's SS provides 20s of 60% immunity (TL7 only). Spatial Displacement's Great Purge provides 20s of 100% immunity at a cost of 10 perks.
    You forgot http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=205443 ! Understandable though because nobody -ever- used that nano probably thanks to insane attack and recharge times.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkerThanBlack View Post
    You forgot http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=205443 ! Understandable though because nobody -ever- used that nano probably thanks to insane attack and recharge times.
    I've used it.. =/
    Michizure is love, Michizure is life.
    --
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    Caramela - 220/30/70 Neutral Solitus Doctor
    Desejos - 220/30/?? Neutral Atrox Enforcer
    Gretchenross - 220/30/?? Neutral Opifex Shade
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    * Aiken pets Lazy on the head. Sure it is, you keep telling self that
    <Aiken> such a cutesy clammer aren't you *cheekpinch*
    <Lazy>
    <Lazy> viva la revolucion
    * Dywas decides to walk away from the soon-to-be sexytime
    <Aiken> lol Dywas, Id make a man of him
    <Lazy> Dywas, i'd go gay for aiken. no lie

  19. #19
    NR and Root/snare resist are borked anyways, on my MP i have 3,1k NR and 75% root/snare resist with SS running and roots still land quite often when some pesky fixer is aoe rooting/snaring my pets.

    These low durations are highly welcomed imo.
    RK
    Roxburry 220/30/70 Cratz0r
    Roxbury 220/25/70 Shadez0r
    Bolrn 220/27/70 Mpz0r
    Arrow83 220/27/70 Solz0r

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Burgly View Post
    NR and Root/snare resist are borked anyways, on my MP i have 3,1k NR and 75% root/snare resist with SS running and roots still land quite often when some pesky fixer is aoe rooting/snaring my pets.
    That's only because you don't notice all the times you've countered or resisted them.

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