NT Balance suggestions - What do you guys want?

[Djiax]

If an AoE had the capability to hit in a damage range anywhere near Masta's and it was insta-cast, it would almost certainly have to share lines with Garuk's.

Otherwise, it would be disgustingly OP.

Yes, but it remains the most important that it is insta cast. So we can kite with it as it has always been fun.

[Vinkera]

Yes, but it remains the most important that it is insta cast. So we can kite with it as it has always been fun.

Yes, I have no intention to suggest kiting shouldn't be possible due to cast time. AoE must always be insta-cast.

[Cratertina]

What you're saying is, the only thing wrong is everything that's important, which I 100% agree with... :S

Every nuke we have sucks in one way or another. Garuk's is closest to perfect, but the line cooldown is still 1 second too long. =/

Nukes sync poorly, cooldowns missmatch, combos do not exist, low level nukes are crap. VE is best from lvl 60 to 155. Arguably stil at 220.

NT lives and dies on good nukes, options for fixing are limitless.

Now what we can do is, help michi get numbers. We can write up xml for update and submit it to devzor razor Michi.

[schloops]

What was wrong with nts just before they introduced garuk and more changes?
It was fine and the most fun profession in pvm and pvp.

Just correct our old dot exploitability and move all back to how it was then. Maybe don't allow nano shield (think that's what it was called, that boosted our damage) for pvp.

What else is needed? Oh yes, remove the cyberdeck reqs on our nr debuffs like I asked for years ago XD.

There, boom, case resolved.

NB: extending duration for blinds should be a big nono, that alone would render pvm solo lame.

[DigitalBath]

What was wrong with nts just before they introduced garuk and more changes?
It was fine and the most fun profession in pvm and pvp.

Just correct our old dot exploitability and move all back to how it was then. Maybe don't allow nano shield (think that's what it was called, that boosted our damage) for pvp.

What else is needed? Oh yes, remove the cyberdeck reqs on our nr debuffs like I asked for years ago XD.

There, boom, case resolved.

NB: extending duration for blinds should be a big nono, that alone would render pvm solo lame.

It's important to look at the whole spectrum of profs in AO when pushing ideas. NT's are not desirable in teams over other high DD professions like Crats (used here as a ranged example, but there's more) and Shades (melee example). Why? Both of those have init debuffs, more mobility when applying damage (important for encounters like the new Pyramid) and overall better defense over time. They also bring nice things to the team
And wouldn't you know.. some professions even have more DD than us in endgame gear while keeping the valuable utility they bring!

So yeah, I get your point. I defended it before 18.7. Now I want more because we deserve more.

Reverting to the damage ranges we had before the DM nerf wouldn't, by itself, fix things imho.

[Cratertina]

There is a point where Nt damage would fix stuff... Round 500k dpm in top build.

There Are other avenues that could work. Shades n crats have great utility and tankiness.. Using that metric Nts should tank like shades or evade like crats... But as they are massive damage in form of % nukes. Lots of damage on hard targets small damage on soft targets.

Having maybe a hp drain nuke would help tanking, but maybe that is trader domain... NT just lacks versitility.

[Vinkera]

There is a point where Nt damage would fix stuff... Round 500k dpm in top build.

There Are other avenues that could work. Shades n crats have great utility and tankiness.. Using that metric Nts should tank like shades or evade like crats... But as they are massive damage in form of % nukes. Lots of damage on hard targets small damage on soft targets.

Having maybe a hp drain nuke would help tanking, but maybe that is trader domain... NT just lacks versitility.

That's the crossroads I've been thinking of, myself. Either NT's are more capable of sustaining themselves, or do ludicrous damage. The problem I see is, I don't know if Michi has any long term plans / view of where we're headed. Although we seem to be a somewhat pointless profession at the moment, we tend to favor the damage role. I think that issue will work itself out if Michi is going to follow our recommendations for the most part.

[Rockdizzle]

The current problem with ludicrous damage is no tanking profs can hold agg off anything above 350k DPM (Enfs/Advies for sure can't) a taunt spamming DPM setup MA maybe could but that doesn't really make sense tbh.

Even 300-350k DPM forces a Enf to cast IMalice more often otherwise agg jumps around, A 160-170k DPM Enf IMalice spamming with Dreadbringer up SHOULD do 640-650k taunt per min + damage but since I'm guessing they wear off over time you end up with 200k ish effective taunt at best so 25-30% effective taunt.

The first thing that needs fixing I feel is Taunts and how they work before a "high damage dealing role" can realistically work in team/raids.

[Vinkera]

Well, if you're setting your toon up for suicidal damage, you should be aware that getting aggro is likely. Before Pyramid, I had nearly every +% Nano damage item on possible, and the few times I got aggro, the Enf's actually admitted to slacking off.

There has to be an understanding between both you and the Enf. You can't wildly spam damage until they have aggro sorted out. But the Enf can't let support die, because he'll never kill anything himself. This is actually the reason I requested the detaunt be removed from Garuk's. I figured it encourages more tactics in a team. Play smart or get killed and look like the idiot.

But, I suppose adding the detaunt back could also help teamability a tad. It would allow us to drop way more damage than others without drawing nearly the same kind of attention away from the tank.

[Rockdizzle]

Just wondering what you think so sorry if I sound rude but what counts as suicidal damage than? If it's just anything higher than what Enfs can handle even with starting taunts than that's the problem I see.

Agent can hit 450k DPM self buffed if pistol and 500k DPM self buffed if shotgun in suicide setups so ofc that's a lot but can easily steal agg with just a bow in a non-suicide setup at 340-360k DPM and Shade/NT/MA(if good enough) can do the same without going suicide either.

Ya letting the Enf have starting taunts/dmg helps hold agg somewhat but if we use my Bow Agent on live as an example(non-suicide setup) I can give the Enf 30 seconds of taunting/dmg + no damage at all from me and still steal agg within 2 minutes, should I have waited 60-90 seconds instead? that's a long time of doing nothing when my only role was DDing. If the answer is not pushing DD at all than I'm better off playing a support prof instead or pet profs where hitting 400k DPM is still safe.

[DigitalBath]

Just wondering what you think so sorry if I sound rude but what counts as suicidal damage than? If it's just anything higher than what Enfs can handle even with starting taunts than that's the problem I see.

Agent can hit 450k DPM self buffed if pistol and 500k DPM self buffed if shotgun in suicide setups so ofc that's a lot but can easily steal agg with just a bow in a non-suicide setup at 340-360k DPM and Shade/NT/MA(if good enough) can do the same without going suicide either.

Ya letting the Enf have starting taunts/dmg helps hold agg somewhat but if we use my Bow Agent on live as an example(non-suicide setup) I can give the Enf 30 seconds of taunting/dmg + no damage at all from me and still steal agg within 2 minutes, should I have waited 60-90 seconds instead? that's a long time of doing nothing when my only role was DDing. If the answer is not pushing DD at all than I'm better off playing a support prof instead or pet profs where hitting 400k DPM is still safe.

In the end that's a tank issue, not a NT issue, though.
I've been blessed with some stellar tanks that very very rarely lose aggro but I know this is a fairly big issue, especially with non-enforcers, and it should be addressed.

We're simply pushing for NT's to have Damage/Utility compatible with their lack of survival and comparable in overall power to the more picked professions in teams.

[Rockdizzle]

ofc I 100% agree with it being a tank issue more specifically a Taunt mechanic issue. I also feel NTs need a general boost in dmg (AOEs and singles) + a stronger AOE blind would be nice.

I just felt that its worth keeping in mind where Enfs and other "tank" profs stand when talking about NT dmg boosts since even tho they aren't #1 in DD(on 1 mob) they still push 300k+ DPM easily atm.

[Variable]

If we feel that damage is still lacking, can we use current toolset to increase it?

I find our DoTs are currently underused/overlooked due to the cast time. In most situation by the time we have landed it, the mob is almost dead and the benefits to damage (SL nuke damage increase) isnt worth it.
What about if it was a lot quicker to cast and and also increase the "bonus" damage related to having it running on the mob that your fighting. It could be put put on a local cooldown timer to avoid spamming it?

I like that the idea that this rewards players who spend time to get AI levels/Dots with more damage over power leveled toons. (im not a fan of power leveling, and I like to see well equipped players get rewarded for their effort)

Var

[Vinkera]

ofc I 100% agree with it being a tank issue more specifically a Taunt mechanic issue. I also feel NTs need a general boost in dmg (AOEs and singles) + a stronger AOE blind would be nice.

I just felt that its worth keeping in mind where Enfs and other "tank" profs stand when talking about NT dmg boosts since even tho they aren't #1 in DD(on 1 mob) they still push 300k+ DPM easily atm.

I understand your point, but if Enf's, etc are lacking the proper taunts to deal with amount of damage some profs can throw out... that's not really a concern of mine at the moment. If that becomes an issue that affects NT's, even indirectly, I'll say something about it for sure.

My focus is on the individual NT, primarily. Teaming aspects is a close second.

If we feel that damage is still lacking, can we use current toolset to increase it?

I find our DoTs are currently underused/overlooked due to the cast time. In most situation by the time we have landed it, the mob is almost dead and the benefits to damage (SL nuke damage increase) isnt worth it.
What about if it was a lot quicker to cast and and also increase the "bonus" damage related to having it running on the mob that your fighting. It could be put put on a local cooldown timer to avoid spamming it?

I like that the idea that this rewards players who spend time to get AI levels/Dots with more damage over power leveled toons. (im not a fan of power leveling, and I like to see well equipped players get rewarded for their effort)

Var

I've had a clever way to make DoT's awesome without being too OP for a while now. It even combines the AoE aspect, also.

Basically, you have a DoT aura that runs on the NT, and any enemy close enough gets hit by the DoT. It would also sap the NT's nano at the same time, so timing and positioning is key. Something like this.

Working in aspects like AI levels affecting scaling values may be a possibility, also.

Just another thought.

[schloops]

It's important to look at the whole spectrum of profs in AO when pushing ideas. NT's are not desirable in teams over other high DD professions like Crats (used here as a ranged example, but there's more) and Shades (melee example). Why? Both of those have init debuffs, more mobility when applying damage (important for encounters like the new Pyramid) and overall better defense over time. They also bring nice things to the team
And wouldn't you know.. some professions even have more DD than us in endgame gear while keeping the valuable utility they bring!

So yeah, I get your point. I defended it before 18.7. Now I want more because we deserve more.

Reverting to the damage ranges we had before the DM nerf wouldn't, by itself, fix things imho.

Thank you for your answer .

I do get that in plenty situations, a nt can't compare to a crat for example, in pvm, but there are also spots where we can. Aliens for example, we do pretty good as tanks and great at dd. I could run up to TS, PM (all of them) and smack them down, collect the bounty and teleport out in medium difficulty solo (team missions), all in less than 5 mins... I made lots of cash that way... because I enjoyed doing it.
I had no problem tanking tnh either. I soloed hezak ages ago and solo tank-killed 3 unicorns back then. I was packed with osbs though haha... later on, made 5 froobs 200 just to be able to give myself the buffs I needed. I also overdamaged 2 good 220 shades in ai armor in IS (they decided to go after my repop) (using shield... I know lol)... they really felt silly and moved out ^^. So we do have our strengths.

Yes, in the cookie cutter 2-3 toons team used to do something that would normally require a team, we are nowhere near the bests, but for all other cases, people are pretty happy of our damage. I haven't had troubles getting a team since that expansion that gave us the BS.

I haven't played for a long while so my info are probably somewhat outdated... but again, I'd start from where we were and adapt to the changes. Because where we were was an absolute blast. I loved solo pvm, had no problems getting teams and loved the pvp.
Part of the reason it was soo nice is that we had difficult choices to make, regularly. Long term dots would kill that. Garuk also doesn't come with the huge cast time of our old last dot.

I understand where you stand, it makes sense... just my opinion is that fc had reached a very delicate balance on nts and that's what made it fun and think we should work around that as a starting point.

Most fun was before they changed the run speed thingy... when nts had different opinions on what a good setup was. Sadly, my setup won and everybody is all about def and nr now... but omg was it fun smacking down the other nts 2 by 2 because they were on that small hp inefficient setup, were slow (low speed while I was over 2.4k) and didn't know how to move because there was that stoupid idea back then that kiting made you bad at being a nt... while it's exactly what makes you good... you have to adapt your shortcuts to be able to use them while moving instead of standing still like an idiot.
I clearly crushed the low hp setup... their loud mouths couldn't defend it when I was destroying them on an industrial scale. The def/nr setup won because fc kept piling on the goodies in that direction and that made that setup dominant. Sadly now, all nts have the same setup and the lowering of our potential speed advantage put an end to the nt as a guerrillero. Now, it's seems in pvp, we are more artillery instead of master of the domain... we can't force our game on others but instead have to react to theirs.

I would be more interested in regaining some speed advantage even if only temporarily, requiring a casting and a short duration. Or maybe have dark movement (I think that's the name?) be overridable by gsf... we can always recast it if needed.

On the aggro part... I think it's required that we can grab agg (I love stealing agg!). This whole enfo presses a button and agg sticks to it, is for me bad. The bests should have to work their asses off very efficiently and intellegently to keep it when a nt for example is going all the way. Now, enfos are used as a second paid toon, tabbed to, press agg thingy and tab back to the main toon.
Also, we actually have a couple tools (one prof-centric) to get rid of agg. With molotoff (where are you friend?), we would have fun swapping agg between us so the one with ns up would be doing the tanking, at 2... even tried it at 4 or 5... lots of fun.

And for pvp we had 2 modes, each fun.

We had it all... the setup variety, the efficiency variety, the solo pvm blast, the pvp blast, 2 modes for pvp, we had some control on the landscape and so on. Was just plain perfect. Loved my nt!

What we needed was the cyberdeck requirements on our nr debuffs to be lifted so we could have fun in (still less efficient, but fun is in change) weapon setups.

Nowadays, it seems the constant obsession is with more damage... but that's also killing pvm... we are more and more going between situations where the mobs have ballistic high ARs and dmg or die from our reflects while we are playing in the garden. Most professions need to be toned down, not up for balance because then it makes another profession unbalanced and it gets more dd, and pvm goes into the gutter.

When I think of nts, I think of dmg, sure, but that never was the most fun part of being a nt.
Mind you, I'm dreaming of the past... your job is not to dream but to offer solutions... a lot harder haha.

PS: I know, not currently playing and having been there not much the last years means I can't be reliable to speak about the current situation, but it does allow me to point to how great it used to be and why. The patch that made a hit do 30% max damage instead of 40% was the best that happened to us. Still laughing of the people that thought they had tamed the nts with that patch .

[Variable]

Having a local area damage aura sounds nice, I like the balance of reducing nano as well, as that would benefit well equipped chars if done well.
However, you've taken a single target damage tool and made it damage multiple targets, there are situations where you are relying on calms and want to just damage one mob.

Are you suggesting the DoTs could go in 2 seperate schools of nano? One for area damage and the other for single target?

I would think it would be better to have the local area damage nano as a "new" skill for NTs, and continue to update the AI dots seperately. Increase damage, increase "bonus" SL nuke damage, and decrease cast time.

I dont mean to poh poh your idea, it sounds great and suits the NT well, but it is very different to a single target distanced DoT.

Var

[Cratertina]

Well, nice old stories, bax in da day my pistol NT did 650kish damage per minute on tara(fight lasted about one minute)

Dat was nice easily outdamaged shades... Glasscannon, but atleast a cannon. It had a role... Grab it, do epic damage, put it away.

Right now it has a role aswell, VE borgs, VE in elly VE at foremans, VE in inferno... Sometimes Mastablasta at APFs..

Single target damage is 250-350k depending on fight length....

So times have changed. If you have other professions, chances are they are better at general gameplay than NT.

This comes down to squishiness, lack of healdelta on exterm alphas and overall slow casting of nanos.

It had potential to be the king of nano, but is more like duke of the dance...

[Vinkera]

This comes down to squishiness, lack of healdelta on exterm alphas and overall slow casting of nanos.

It had potential to be the king of nano, but is more like duke of the dance...

That pretty much sums it up.

Things have gotten a little too plain, and our clunky toolset just isn't really fun anymore.

[Psikie]

As far as a new AOE, the only way to keep the kite hill QQ down would be to lvl lock it at 201-205. I cant see too many tl7 NT's at kite hill considering team range.

[Cratertina]

Well just give it 2000MC requirement... Solves all potential KH issues.