Give us 151-174 battlestation? and level 170 to be attackable by 214? balance??

[Pomidor]

Theorycrafting perfect level ranges won't help if there are simply not enough people to run all that different ranges. One solution to that problem could be to not open up all BS at the same time - like one hour TL7 only, next hour TL6 only, next hour TL5 only etc. (replace TLx with your perfectly crafted range). But I assume people would very much dislike this like "whoa you force me to have a twink in each range to play!" etc.

People would be for BS, if BS would have alternate things to do (PVM in twink range) and if it would not end up running 5 minutes from spot to spot. Lvl 30 and 60 and 100 BS are tooo big. We know this since years. Even if there are 8 people at one time, finding somone to fight is just to slow and damn boring. I remember, back in 2009, we managed to run BS 100 with lots of twinks, like 12-15 people, and still it felt empty. Even this lvl range is most balanced in all ways, it wont run because 1) no PVM content 2) its boring like hell.

Your idea is not good at all.

FC could provide an APF for lvl 100 and it would be good. Let it be simple APF in APF area (mission) like Coocons, but with general at end and some minor additional loot. Simple to introduce. Could boost up this lvl range. I still keep 4 twinks geared

[Artyomis]

I agree with Pomidor here, and in general, I'd like to add that BS, as an instance, as a part of game, will be entertaining and successful only with appropriate active population.
BS gives no important rewards, so it won't attract most part of playerbase as is.
When population was larger than it is now (esp when BS appeared live) - BS used to run nearly permanently and was filled with tons of people. And people joined it because it gave FUN.
Problem is not in BS mechanics, or its size. It's about overall population, just as like most of other content that nearly empty.
Thanks god that BS isn't instanced at least, otherwise it'd be totally dead.

[Psikie]

I actually said that the return on investment for making a S7 toon is paltry; which is what made me reconsider.

The premise of your argument works, but in practice it doesn't hold true.

So my point, which you missed, is that I agree that on the outset, your theory is good. But the value of S7 in the long run disproves it. So 151-200 BS must actually be self sustaining due to ... no idea, but maybe perhaps because level 200 is a level that no-one has ever stopped to PVP at since pre-expansion, I guess.

No I didnt miss your point I just dont agree with it. I've been playing AO for what...12+ years, I have a 220 of every prof spread over 3 accounts except Trader which I absolutely dont like to play. The circle I run in has a lot of players that dont bother with forums that also have multiple accounts with 220's.

One you have reached enlightenment enough times there are only 3 things to do.

1. Go full pvp build route with a few toons.
2. Make some weird pvm builds just to see if it would work.
3. Make toons for specific things such as dungeons or to help alts level.

If I missed something let me know, but I think #3 pretty much sums it up.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

No I didnt miss your point I just dont agree with it. I've been playing AO for what...12+ years, I have a 220 of every prof spread over 3 accounts except Trader which I absolutely dont like to play. The circle I run in has a lot of players that dont bother with forums that also have multiple accounts with 220's.

One you have reached enlightenment enough times there are only 3 things to do.

1. Go full pvp build route with a few toons.
2. Make some weird pvm builds just to see if it would work.
3. Make toons for specific things such as dungeons or to help alts level.

If I missed something let me know, but I think #3 pretty much sums it up.

Then we're on the same page.

Not everyone who plays has 5+ 220's. But whether or not they do or don't, it doesn't mean that they got good value out of making a 200.

If you, or anyone else built a 200 for S7, they got absolutely smashed on the deal, I can almost guarantee it - the reward for making a good PVM 200 right now, is that you're probably reasonably well set up for PVP. That's it - maybe a 50-100m week if you farmed S7 a bit.

But considering the investment is commensurate with probably close to 10-12B worth of time.... you'd have to keep actively playing your 200 for 2 years+ to see any return on investment.

Which, of course, means, that S7 isn't holding up 151-200 BS. At this point? the PVP is holding up 151-200 BS.

[Awikun]

Then we're on the same page.

Not everyone who plays has 5+ 220's. But whether or not they do or don't, it doesn't mean that they got good value out of making a 200.

You are 50% wrong in your assumptions and conclusions and in my case you are 100% wrong
I have 5+220s and as a rule the only time when I visit 215-220 BS is when I am leveling character to level 220 or complete research.
I never ever go to level 215-220 BS for pvp because I hate zerging strategy and see no fun at all in so called team pvp.
I already have 4 level 200 characters and I am in the process of leveling 2 new characters and I have a lot of fun and value with all of them.

If you, or anyone else built a 200 for S7, they got absolutely smashed on the deal, I can almost guarantee it - the reward for making a good PVM 200 right now, is that you're probably reasonably well set up for PVP. That's it - maybe a 50-100m week if you farmed S7 a bit.

My Crat was twinked at level 200 about 1.5 year ago. Its equip cost under 1b and I do not know exactly how much he earned but rogh estimate woud be around 8-12b. About 1 year ago I had an average income on this Crat of 120-150m per hour...
Of course now all prices went down but still if I needed any credits (which I dont) using this Crat would allow to make about 50m per hour not per week

But considering the investment is commensurate with probably close to 10-12B worth of time.... you'd have to keep actively playing your 200 for 2 years+ to see any return on investment.

ROFL. Even when prices were highest no pvm twink cost more than 2-3b to make. The only time when I failed with "return on investment" was when I did my 150 MA. I cost me about 2.5b to make and when I finished him 100% the prices of relays dropped from 20-25m to 3-5m which made any S10 farming a waste of time for me.

Which, of course, means, that S7 isn't holding up 151-200 BS. At this point? the PVP is holding up 151-200 BS.

You are wrong again
Out of my experience on the average BS level 151-200 there will be 20%-30% level 200s and 70%-80% of random leveling characters.
As for those level 200s: 50% will be pvp twinks and 50% pvm twinks and 200 froobs (dual or tripple logged just to make BS start)

One more point: Majority of pvpers and twinks that I meet on BS have some real problems with their egos.
I do not understand how is it fun to farm kill count by farming greenies or afk froob characters.
When I see that there are no real twinks on the other side I always 4cap to stop such behaviour and quite often I get wonderfull hate tells from those "heros" who are mad that I stopped their "fun" ...

[Cratertina]

I long advocate to keep pvp ranges TL locked... Would fix many things especially TL7 IN TL5 battle.

[Psikie]

If you, or anyone else built a 200 for S7, they got absolutely smashed on the deal, I can almost guarantee it -

Well thats kinda where wisdom might have escaped you. A crat who is in med suit, ql 150-200 imps and has completed pen xan can farm in s7 with carlitta and do reasonably well solo. Thats a net cost of a 2-5 mill lol. A single run can net you 10-20 per weapon sold. So for me the cost was negligible to have a pre made dual log partner to farm s7 weapons for my alts and org mates, then sell the rest for profit.

But thats beside the point, those lvl ranges other than 220 are not really meant for twinks. The game drives players to 220, the only reason to really have BS at other lvls is to slowly introduce players to pvp along the way and incentive alert, you can get 3x daily mission and vps.

This is not directed at you Knuckle...but im sure you know players like this.

HOWEVER, in the divine wisdom that are epeen players, someone got the bright idea to start making 2billion credit lowbie twink toons to prey upon lvling newbie players. They destroyed their own player replenishment by chasing off potential future opponents. I dont know why its so hard for players to get that if it isnt fun, you will NOT be getting new players to join you at 220 because you made it miserable for them at lvl 150.

In a perfect world BS lvl ranges would be in 5 level increments 1-5, 6-10... etc etc. But the precious BS would never run because they chased off all the players by acting like jack wagons. So the current BS is a product of their own numb skullery. Doesnt matter how much QQ about balance or MB, none of that would matter if there were 100 people waiting in que. Thanks to the epeen players you are lucky to get 10 in que.

[Le-Quack]

Well thats kinda where wisdom might have escaped you. A crat who is in med suit, ql 150-200 imps and has completed pen xan can farm in s7 with carlitta and do reasonably well solo. Thats a net cost of a 2-5 mill lol. A single run can net you 10-20 per weapon sold. So for me the cost was negligible to have a pre made dual log partner to farm s7 weapons for my alts and org mates, then sell the rest for profit.

But thats beside the point, those lvl ranges other than 220 are not really meant for twinks. The game drives players to 220, the only reason to really have BS at other lvls is to slowly introduce players to pvp along the way and incentive alert, you can get 3x daily mission and vps.

This is not directed at you Knuckle...but im sure you know players like this.

HOWEVER, in the divine wisdom that are epeen players, someone got the bright idea to start making 2billion credit lowbie twink toons to prey upon lvling newbie players. They destroyed their own player replenishment by chasing off potential future opponents. I dont know why its so hard for players to get that if it isnt fun, you will NOT be getting new players to join you at 220 because you made it miserable for them at lvl 150.

In a perfect world BS lvl ranges would be in 5 level increments 1-5, 6-10... etc etc. But the precious BS would never run because they chased off all the players by acting like jack wagons. So the current BS is a product of their own numb skullery. Doesnt matter how much QQ about balance or MB, none of that would matter if there were 100 people waiting in que. Thanks to the epeen players you are lucky to get 10 in que.

I wonder why there was more 165-170 twinks at one point than 220's then in rk 2.
The activeity in that level range was bigger than tl 7.
Atleast try be a litle legit here and not missleading.

[Psikie]

I wonder why there was more 165-170 twinks at one point than 220's then in rk 2.
The activeity in that level range was bigger than tl 7.
Atleast try be a litle legit here and not missleading.

Im calling BS. Every single one of those twinks...EVERY single one had a player with at least 1 TL6-7 to fund it. Just because they didnt pvp vs you at TL7 does not mean they did not exist. Especially with your definition of twink, its not remotely possible for a player with TL5 toon only to even solo farm the needed gear to become a twink. Ridiculous post. Activity can be generated by 1 MB with 4-6 toons.

[Le-Quack]

Im calling BS. Every single one of those twinks...EVERY single one had a player with at least 1 TL6-7 to fund it. Just because they didnt pvp vs you at TL7 does not mean they did not exist. Especially with your definition of twink, its not remotely possible for a player with TL5 toon only to even solo farm the needed gear to become a twink. Ridiculous post. Activity can be generated by 1 MB with 4-6 toons.

ok

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Well thats kinda where wisdom might have escaped you. A crat who is in med suit, ql 150-200 imps and has completed pen xan can farm in s7 with carlitta and do reasonably well solo. Thats a net cost of a 2-5 mill lol. A single run can net you 10-20 per weapon sold. So for me the cost was negligible to have a pre made dual log partner to farm s7 weapons for my alts and org mates, then sell the rest for profit.

fine. Crat is an obvious exception. And I may be a bit off base since you actually don't need to "twink" to be able to do S7 ... a team with 4-5 guys in moderate gear and reasonable understanding can do totally fine in there.

If you were to stay 200 though, the colossal effort required to max out is .. a lot.

In a perfect world BS lvl ranges would be in 5 level increments 1-5, 6-10... etc etc. But the precious BS would never run because they chased off all the players by acting like jack wagons. So the current BS is a product of their own numb skullery. Doesnt matter how much QQ about balance or MB, none of that would matter if there were 100 people waiting in que. Thanks to the epeen players you are lucky to get 10 in que.

This is why I've been saying for years that FC should add a buff to make any level player able to participate.

Unfortunately, the amount of scaling in AO is downright retarded.

Notably:

Burst = no set recharge - recharge scales on skill
fling shot = no set recharge - recharge scales on skill
fast attack...
full auto ...
Aimed shot... rolling eyes

Seriously.

If you want balance, the way to get it is by making sure that all levels retain some capability to influence a PVP outcome. And the easiest way to do that is by bolster buffs in BS.

You call players numbskulls for chasing off the levelling toons , but in reality they are only exploring the mechanics and utilizing the crazy force multipliers that exist in game. You CAN do it, so why not do it?

It's just bad game design, and unfortunately that's part of what made AO, AO.

[Wakizaka]

Im calling BS. Every single one of those twinks...EVERY single one had a player with at least 1 TL6-7 to fund it. Just because they didnt pvp vs you at TL7 does not mean they did not exist. Especially with your definition of twink, its not remotely possible for a player with TL5 toon only to even solo farm the needed gear to become a twink. Ridiculous post. Activity can be generated by 1 MB with 4-6 toons.

Lol, inaccurate post. What can't a TL5 solo that they cannot buy if need be ?
My TL5 Fixer was self farmed and actually helped fund my Keeper when it hit the 200ish mark.

[Psikie]

Lol, inaccurate post. What can't a TL5 solo that they cannot buy if need be ?
My TL5 Fixer was self farmed and actually helped fund my Keeper when it hit the 200ish mark.

Fixer sure you might be the 1 in 1000 that lucked up and found a ga4 disk. But uhm level 150 cant even do missions for ql 250+ implants, and you certainly are not making inf pb's without the help of an MP to create crystals. SO again not possible to SOLO your gear to make a 150 twink. If you plan to BUY all your equipment that you cant farm solo... Well then i suppose you can buy credits or sell grace for $$$. If you consider going to GMS as SOLO farming for your toons gear I think we are done with this convo.

Now for future clarity sake, lets say in my example SOLO means it is the only toon you have or the highest lvl toon you have is 150.

[Wakizaka]

Fixer sure you might be the 1 in 1000 that lucked up and found a ga4 disk. But uhm level 150 cant even do missions for ql 250+ implants, and you certainly are not making inf pb's without the help of an MP to create crystals. SO again not possible to SOLO your gear to make a 150 twink. If you plan to BUY all your equipment that you cant farm solo... Well then i suppose you can buy credits or sell grace for $$$. If you consider going to GMS as SOLO farming for your toons gear I think we are done with this convo.

Now for future clarity sake, lets say in my example SOLO means it is the only toon you have or the highest lvl toon you have is 150.

I've never found a GA disk. A level 150 can blitz level 250 find missions.
I used to blitz missions for shop fodder for credits in order to buy the items I couldn't farm myself.
Also, this was back in 2005~2006, and it's still doable to this day.

[Bluecheeze2]

BattleStation level ranges should remain the same to ensure that BS runs consistently.

PvP level ranges should be readjusted so that players with ShadowLevels are not permitted to attack those without ShadowLevels in an open field / tower site / arena.

Dueling should be permitted for anyone within 33% of your level. I.e - 150's can test against 200's, 200's can test against 220's, etc. This would eliminate making froob toons to farm your duel score.


I didn't read any of your suggestions because I'm the top PvPer and the rest of you should attempt to bask in the blinding rays of my glory.

[Dollcet]

HOWEVER, in the divine wisdom that are epeen players, someone got the bright idea to start making 2billion credit lowbie twink toons to prey upon lvling newbie players. They destroyed their own player replenishment by chasing off potential future opponents. I dont know why its so hard for players to get that if it isnt fun, you will NOT be getting new players to join you at 220 because you made it miserable for them at lvl 150.

In a perfect world BS lvl ranges would be in 5 level increments 1-5, 6-10... etc etc. But the precious BS would never run because they chased off all the players by acting like jack wagons. So the current BS is a product of their own numb skullery. Doesnt matter how much QQ about balance or MB, none of that would matter if there were 100 people waiting in que. Thanks to the epeen players you are lucky to get 10 in que.

*Thumbs up*

Dude you summed it up perfectly but those addicted to Killcount just dont care...

[Awikun]

It is up to you to decide what you like and how you play AO, but personaly after playing AO for over 12 years I may have a diffrent opinion about pvp in AO.
Let me sum it up:

TL1-TL3 is all about twinking maximum amount of NCU. In case of tower wars its all about efficiency of your buffing characters and "logistics". OSB from high level characters are so OP that quite often its not about skill but about whose buffs run out first and about how fast and efficient you can rebuff your "twinks" when they die. BS at those level ranges is a joke and hardly ever runs because of way too low runspeed and a fact that some of those "twinks" are quite useless without OSB from high level characters.

TL4 is slightly better but still suffers from almost the same problems as TL1-TL3 and it was never quite popular.
TL5-TL6 those are in my opinion the most fun to pvp level ranges. OSBs are not so important and in most cases its enough to be buffed by other professions from the same level ranges. Whats even more important is that you can play solo or team, selfbuffed or OSB and even a selfbuffed solo player can kill some teamed players.
Early TL7 no point to pvp except some "......." who twink at some weird levels to totaly destroy fun of some TL5 tower wars.
Endgame TL7 (220) - no fun at all....
Its all about team/raid composition and zerging. For years it was all about callers and assisting + you needed in every "sucessfull team" Eng for blockers, Crat for auras and CC, Doc for healing etc...
I like to pvp but I hate zerging so all my 220s are twinked for pvm or tradeskilling or comp lit.
For me pvp is best fun between level 150 and 200.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

It is up to you to decide what you like and how you play AO, but personaly after playing AO for over 12 years I may have a diffrent opinion about pvp in AO.
Let me sum it up:

TL1-TL3 is all about twinking maximum amount of NCU. In case of tower wars its all about efficiency of your buffing characters and "logistics". OSB from high level characters are so OP that quite often its not about skill but about whose buffs run out first and about how fast and efficient you can rebuff your "twinks" when they die. BS at those level ranges is a joke and hardly ever runs because of way too low runspeed and a fact that some of those "twinks" are quite useless without OSB from high level characters.

TL4 is slightly better but still suffers from almost the same problems as TL1-TL3 and it was never quite popular.
TL5-TL6 those are in my opinion the most fun to pvp level ranges. OSBs are not so important and in most cases its enough to be buffed by other professions from the same level ranges. Whats even more important is that you can play solo or team, selfbuffed or OSB and even a selfbuffed solo player can kill some teamed players.
Early TL7 no point to pvp except some "......." who twink at some weird levels to totaly destroy fun of some TL5 tower wars.
Endgame TL7 (220) - no fun at all....
Its all about team/raid composition and zerging. For years it was all about callers and assisting + you needed in every "sucessfull team" Eng for blockers, Crat for auras and CC, Doc for healing etc...
I like to pvp but I hate zerging so all my 220s are twinked for pvm or tradeskilling or comp lit.
For me pvp is best fun between level 150 and 200.

I actually find that low level PVP isn't as bad as NCU fest.

At low level, NCU isn't the most important thing - it is important... but not as important as the overall twinking concept.

For example:
Is your weapon OE with comp debuff?
Is your Armor 50%OE, 75%OE, how much AR/AC/max HP did you lose due to armor going to 50%?

Like, at level 20-30 there are serious considerations between implanting sta/str and choosing which QL of armor to use. If you can keep your armor out of OE, you might knock another 50 damage off each hit the enemy does to you which is a pretty big boost to survival.

Imo, NCU is important, but low level PVP is actually the only level range where all aspects of damage mitigation are important. AC's are pretty much over by level 100, so it's TL 1-3 when you actually have every game mechanics still relevant.

[Pomidor]

add to that, besides NCU (which is most important, as Awikun said, in tower wars), that at TL1-3 you have what? 4 classes good in PvP? Trader, Enf, Soldier and Agent (at lvl 15 everything with Nabstick)

[Raishen]

Instead of making 151-200 BS into 151-174 & 175-200 ... why not just make it 151-189 & throw the others into 190-214? A lot of those 200 twinks are pretty damned amazing in pvp... I wouldn't doubt they can hold their own against 214s (aka those people from that one Neutral org)

haha we damn sure can Legendfluf :/ we are still around we just dont play much ( We are Vogue )