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Thread: Leveling is HARD: some suggestions

  1. #21
    AO has always been "a hard game" and many ppl appreciated this!
    Over the years it has been made easier and easier in every single aspect like leveling, obtaining gear, boss encounters etc.
    Game like AO will not become or beat in terms of popularity games like Counterstrike or WoW but dumbing it down more and more will surely make "an old population who like AO challanges" quit...

    Adding new and more OP gear without increasing strenght of bosses and major encounters is A BAD IDEA !!!

    I remember 10 - 12 years ago (with huge population) IS raids where 2-3 teams (no raid interfece back then) where wiped out by Hezak and Mercs were often a fight between Omnis and Clan with as many as 60-100 ppl on each side.

    Today thx to stupid FC "strategy" of dumbing down AO, we have a lot smaller population and encounters like Hezak or Mercs can be done solo by 1 person (even without any Multiboxing - which is another HUGE problem of AO)

    So my conclusion at this time is the following:
    1. AO will not become "the most popular" and the highest income MMORPG no matter how much FC will dumb it down!
    2. The strenght of AO is its uniques and difficulty which attracts many ppl/customers for many years so dumbing it down and trying to make it "massive and more popular" will make more harm than good"...
    3. Stick to loyal playerbase, try to make as many veterans (bored with "new and easy games") to come back to AO instead of dumbing down AO which makes more veterans leave AO than new players to join it ...
    Awikun 220/70/30 Ranged adv - my Main that I hardly ever log
    Awisha 220/70/30 Shade - Can solo 95% of all bosses
    Cratawi 200/70/30 Crat - S7/DR Solo farmer
    Awiken 220/70/30 Eng - Pvm Eng
    Nukiwa 200/70/30 NT - almost forgotten (awaiting retwink)
    Awidoc 200/70/30 Doc - 200 fun pvp twink
    Awix 200/70/30 Fix - 200 fun pvp twink
    Awienf 220/70/30 Enf - tanked every single boss (and still lives)
    Soldawi 220/70/30 Sol - Pvm Sold
    Awima 150/xx/xx Ma - best S10 MA farmer
    Doctorawi 220/70/30 - Pvm Doc
    Awienfo 200/70/30 - Atrox with Pande red belt and 2xQL300 hammers
    Macierewicz 220/70/30 - Pvm Crat
    Zlakobieta 220/70/30 - max complit +top tradeskiller

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Psikie View Post
    Over all interesting post. I did take exception to this quote
    I have a problem with that because you seem to say OST is "cheating". My theory is how can OST be cheating when OSF (outside farming) doesnt seem to bother you? Getting nippys is definitely something your toon didnt get through "playing". Im just saying that seems a little hypocritical. In BOTH cases you are using a high lvl toon to help you with something your toon can not do themselves through game play. In my opinion you cant consider one cheating without the other being equally guilty. Just a thought.
    I borrowed the Nippy from an Org mate. But almost all the gear I am currently wearing is borrowed: RBP, 4 pieces 130 CC, pred circlet, 2x IQ rings, Arul saba's, I didn't even get the tokens myself. I had over 140 vet points so bought exactly 1k tokens at level 10 or whatever.

    Borrowing gear isn't cheating. But exploiting a mechanic that allows under geared/underleveled players to fight targets that would normally crush them without a well coordinated plan is exactly that: an exploit. And exploiting is cheating.

    Just because you and everyone else has been doing it for X number of years doesn't make it less of a cheat or exploit. It's just that it's never been punished.

    Just like suicide isn't punished, it's still a crime to kill someone, even yourself. Well, all the players who continually exploit are killing their own capability to provide valuable teaming opportunities to other players.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psikie View Post
    Other than that I found your post insightful to new player angst. A weapon that levels with you is a novel concept. It shouldnt be as good as ofab/ai weapons of equal level. But maybe as good as 001 weapons of equal lvl?
    It's hard to say off the top of my head, but I feel like standard weapons should be about as good as a decent RK weapon: moderate min damage, moderate max damage, and not super fast, but usable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinkera View Post
    Even continuing Nano consolidations would help this whole problem. Leveling weapons that are "good" but not great would be amazing to have.

    Just logging in and going is great. Almost every time someone wants to go level, I think to myself "ah crap... I don't have *insert one of 5783675910 things here*"

    I think of several things that contribute to a crappy noob experience. Everything in ICC is overpriced, gear from mobs is generally complete crap, and implants are seemingly only for the rich. I started AO in late 2013 as froob, and just looking at how things are now, I'd say that's pretty much the same now.

    Having some halfway decent stuff that just levels with you to a certain point would alleviate that problem. Having a daily that gives you some mission rollable gear, and profession appropriate weapons, etc would just appeal to everyone. I like putting work into my toons, but you could literally spend more time gearing than actually playing.
    I agree. When new players arrive in ICC it just is so alien. Prices on stuff is so far beyond what would be found. I used to really like arrive in West Athens and you got the bio communicator from talking to Robert mugabwe or whatever and anney kingsglade, and then you got the rat catcher quest and you got low QL stuff in the shop and the subway right there. It all made sense. And to get out of West Athens, you needed 130 comp lit or a sense of adventure.

    I remember the week or so I got stuck exploring west Athens, I went travelling south into the green wilderness and tried to find a mob to kill me but couldn't, and couldn't figure out how to get back and ended up finally swimming up the river for god knows how long with whatever 5 swim speed. I almost rolled a new toon because it was so stupid trying to get back. I even left the computer on while I left the house with the W key depressed so I could keep swimming while I was out running errands. My god, the lack of directions was astounding. I didn't know you could /terminate or /petition... mind you, I did quit for another 4 years soon after that. That was in 2003 and then I came back in 2007. So the game probably got a bit of polish between... who knows.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Awikun View Post
    Adding new and more OP gear without increasing strenght of bosses and major encounters is A BAD IDEA !
    I don't think anyone's saying that at all. Creating basic vanilla setup for leveling might even lure more of the "loyal veterans" off kite hill for once. I mean... even the Reck couldn't do that. How many lazy people show up there with 220's to do the work for them? A lot... and those daily's are ezpz.

    Just the other day, had a doc show up in inf mish with starter pistol, med suit and no implants. Seriously, what the hell? I mean, I guess I can give him credit for at least not buying afk inf, but still... He was a waste of space, and didn't do what he should as his prof. Unfortunately, this game is FULL of lazy people. I'd be willing to bet that AFK inf is the most profitable service in the game at the moment.

    My main point is, a lot of people do try to level "legit", but their main complaint is related to teams, which can't really be fixed directly, and gearing up which can. Rewarding those who try with basic stuff they need only reinforces it, while people who afk level are punished by lacking tokens, research, and the basic knowledge of how their toon actually works.

    If you want to shine in teams, no one's stopping you from going all out every time you do maintenance work on a leveling toon. But, rasing the baseline of acceptable from noob island gun, medsuit, and no imps at 200+ (exaggeration, but I see it a lot) to a set of profession armor, a basic gun, 200 imps, and basic profession nanos wouldn't really be a bad thing. All the uniqueness is still there in that scenario, only the lack of effort on the player's part brings that idea down.
    Vinkera - Soli NT - 426k DPM - Setup
    Robbey - Soli Crat

    Lone anarchists - Tower of Babil

    Celez - Soli Doc
    Loaloa - Soli Enf
    Wondershot - Nano Soldier
    Robzor - Soli Engi
    Proserpexa - Opi Agent

    Trying out civilization - Storm

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich View Post
    Borrowing gear isn't cheating. But exploiting a mechanic that allows under geared/underleveled players to fight targets that would normally crush them without a well coordinated plan is exactly that: an exploit. And exploiting is cheating.
    This is where we will disagree, the point is the borrowed equipment was not obtained by your toon through game play. A high lvl toon farmed gear that your under geared/underleveled toon could not do without a well coordinated plan. (sound familiar)

    Kind of sounds like your definition of an exploit. And exploiting is cheating.

    Also by your definition kiting would be cheating by exploiting a mechanic to defeat higher lvl mobs that would crush your toon farming Inf dynas.

    I could go on because there are a lot of "game mechanics" that get "exploited" every day so unless you are saying they are all cheating then you cant say any are cheating. You cant have it both ways because you dont want to label yourself along with everyone else you are trying to label.
    ~Anyone can level, but only the wise gain experience~

    *Bronto Burger, serving 10,000 high level noobs daily*

    http://wolf-brigade.webs.com/

    My Story

    Don't feed the Mensa Tralalalala

    Everyday I'm Shuffling.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Psikie View Post
    This is where we will disagree, the point is the borrowed equipment was not obtained by your toon through game play. A high lvl toon farmed gear that your under geared/underleveled toon could not do without a well coordinated plan. (sound familiar)

    Kind of sounds like your definition of an exploit. And exploiting is cheating.

    Also by your definition kiting would be cheating by exploiting a mechanic to defeat higher lvl mobs that would crush your toon farming Inf dynas.

    I could go on because there are a lot of "game mechanics" that get "exploited" every day so unless you are saying they are all cheating then you cant say any are cheating. You cant have it both ways because you dont want to label yourself along with everyone else you are trying to label.
    You're out of your mind.

    I don't think you read the OP. In several places I clearly stated that I was diverging from the experience that a new player would be having. I was never trying to replicate it, I merely was playing through.

    However, you're drawing completely illogical conclusions about unrelated gameplay, then attempting to shoehorn the argument back on me because you think I don't want to be a hypocrite. How is any of that remotely relevant to the conversation?

    Kiting is not a cheat because you're not breaking the rules: in fact, how are you even attempting to make such a ridiculous argument? There are entire lines of nanos built for the specific task of slowing an opponent down. Further to that, there are even 3 specific parameters built in to regulate that nanoline.

    Using an outside tank, on the other hand, is cheating. You're abusing mechanics to bypass damage.

    Please don't comment in the thread again unless you have something relevant to add.

  6. #26
    Instead of adding new crap, the existing item db just needs an overhaul. Something that should have been done over a decade ago. RK loot and shop gear is just trash outside of a few items. Prices are ridiculous compared to what a noob can gather without banging head against wall or having to spam chat channels with concrete cushions or whatever just to afford basic imp sets. Either throw trash in bin or make it useful.
    Waiting for a cure.

  7. #27
    They could just do to the Starter weapons, like the Newcomer Armor. The newcomer armor isn't bad, and it's not great, there is much better Armor out there, but if one had to, Newcomer armor is good Armor to level up with

    Once you do the weapon Upgrade trade skill in Arete, it becomes a Leveling weapon.
    or
    Going with new Profession mission Idea, once out of Arete, go to your Profession NPC for the Weapon upgrade mission, to turn the starter weapon into a leveling weapon. Weapon won't be great just like the Newcomer Armor, but it won't be bad to be stuck with till one can find better

    Bonus idea, add SL to Free to play, and use the profession NPC's that are already there, to give the new missions

    here everything is already in the game, The weapons, the Profession NPC's, and a new area for Free to play, . . just need some code change to make it happen . . or is there more to it then just that ?
    Last edited by MrXaatXuun; Jun 8th, 2016 at 07:06:40.
    Xaatsha2 ++Current setup++ - The Main
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  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by MrXaatXuun View Post
    Bonus idea, add SL to Free to play....
    Yea, it's about time that happens. Funcom would probably make more from the in-game store than any calculated loss.

    Plus, how could that not get more people playing? More people playing is not a bad thing. For a while I've thought fixing these issues that MKS is talking about, making SL free to play, and adding the game to Steam would add a noticeable amount of new players. Not doing all three of those would be a wasted effort, since difficulty of starting up kind of kills customer retention, and the current froob model is like a completely separate game alongside the paid players.

    That all makes perfect sense to me. Funcom could maybe come up with a greedy reason to make it suck, though. :P
    Vinkera - Soli NT - 426k DPM - Setup
    Robbey - Soli Crat

    Lone anarchists - Tower of Babil

    Celez - Soli Doc
    Loaloa - Soli Enf
    Wondershot - Nano Soldier
    Robzor - Soli Engi
    Proserpexa - Opi Agent

    Trying out civilization - Storm

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich View Post
    Kiting is not a cheat because you're not breaking the rules: in fact, how are you even attempting to make such a ridiculous argument?

    Using an outside tank, on the other hand, is cheating. You're abusing mechanics to bypass damage.
    I never said either was cheating, you did. Im just pointing out the fallacy of your argument using YOUR OWN WORDS.

    The point is the borrowed equipment was not obtained by your toon through game play. A high lvl toon farmed gear that your under geared/underleveled toon could not do without a well coordinated plan. (sound familiar) You obviously bypassed damage by not farming it with your own toon. Does that not sound like abusing a mechanic per YOUR OWN WORDS?

    I was willing to let this go because its not easy for you to look at something you have probably done for years as wrong in some way. But sitting up on your high horse saying people should play your way or its cheating just sounds hypocritical. Im using YOUR OWN WORDS which is what would have made it easy for you to say, "OK I see how that sounds." But instead you tried to climb higher on that Old Gofle you ride.



    Since you so smugly requested I have something relevant to add, how about this. Your OP was not really about a new player experience. Your entire OP was really about how a veteran player tries to justify their privilege by slumming around like a new player for a few levels. The problem is you are not a new player.

    You know where to go from noob island.
    You dont need to ask questions in OOC because you have the answers.
    You don't have to worry about credits or implants.
    You know where to get the best xp.
    You already know where and how to pull daily missions and DOJAs.
    Most importantly you already have twink gear ready.

    If you really wanted to try and document the plight of the new player, you would do it as a froob of the opposite faction you normally play. Without using your vet points or hand me down equipment and credits from friends or alts. Trying to find your way around that way and try to make friends to team with etc etc. See if you could make it to lvl 150 that would be more realistic.
    ~Anyone can level, but only the wise gain experience~

    *Bronto Burger, serving 10,000 high level noobs daily*

    http://wolf-brigade.webs.com/

    My Story

    Don't feed the Mensa Tralalalala

    Everyday I'm Shuffling.

  10. #30
    Jesus ****ing Christ Psikie. Please re-read the OP.
    Starphoenix 220/30 Adventurer - Shesmine 220/30 Enforcer - Sgtcuddle 220/30 Soldier - Pervonen 220/27 Doctor - Startrade 218/30 Trader - Letter 200/30 Bureaucrat - Shiasurprise 199/20 Soldier - Envelope 150/17 Bureaucrat

  11. #31
    Did read it, more than once, even agreed with most of it. The startup is even worse for a new player. There is no debate about that. Whats your point?

    BTW I am not the messiah.
    ~Anyone can level, but only the wise gain experience~

    *Bronto Burger, serving 10,000 high level noobs daily*

    http://wolf-brigade.webs.com/

    My Story

    Don't feed the Mensa Tralalalala

    Everyday I'm Shuffling.

  12. #32
    There are a few points I was trying to make which you seem to have lost your way on Psikie:

    1. The game is built around team play - but there are too few players to team while levelling
    2. Gear acquisition if it's possible, takes the player away from usual gameplay to engage in a chore which SHOULD be integrated into regular gameplay
    3. Nanos need to be consolidated or revamped entirely
    4. (others) have mentioned that the bulk of the problem could be sorted out by filtering the AO database (weapons/armor/items)

    I think those are the main ones. The reference to cheating is my own interpretation. I have never been a fan of cheating. It trivializes gameplay, when for me to enjoy it I want it to be pure - as in, this is what the game developer built so lets beat it to the best of our abilities - on occasion, though, the content in incomplete or lacking in some way.

    My feeling is that there are still some areas of the game that need improvement. Hence the 4 points above.

  13. #33
    I agree with all those, just not the interpretation of what constitutes cheating.

    Another problem I feel is that current players, all base toon strength on twinks. Twinks have become the standard instead of the exceptional. New players get especially disenfranchised or ridiculed because they dont have friends or high lvl farming toons to help them twink. Its a vicious cycle from power creep that does not include ways for low lvl toons to keep up.

    Incorporating some sort of CS/MB roller at the terminals for nanos and or implants would be fantastic. But I dont think it is with in the scope of the current dev team to undertake. So as an alternative maybe allow some NPC to do it that has a specific loot table for mission rewards might be easier?

    I think the prices for things like implants, stims etc were meant as a credit sink but it has made it even harder for players to survive the harsh economy without taking away from actual game time to become "ingot farmers" unless you have a high lvl toon to farm for you. That has had the effect of making it critical to get a toon up to tl7 as quick as possible by any means necessary just so you can make credits to play a low lvl toon.
    ~Anyone can level, but only the wise gain experience~

    *Bronto Burger, serving 10,000 high level noobs daily*

    http://wolf-brigade.webs.com/

    My Story

    Don't feed the Mensa Tralalalala

    Everyday I'm Shuffling.

  14. #34
    Exactly, setting a baseline setup for all toons who simply have the intention of leveling, and making a means to easily acquire said leveling gear is the solution here. Whatever that happens to be. A series of quests, daily's, whatever... but what was attempted with the new starter area and ICC is not good enough as-is.

    The path to starting up in this game should NOT be... buy GRACE, pay for power leveling, pay for inf, pay for gear and lootrights. Pay for someone else to play for you, basically. That's not my idea of fun, and if a game isn't fun, it's crap.

    I don't have to rely on anyone else for anything, but I've been there more recently than most and I haven't forgotten just how hard it actually is to get going.
    Vinkera - Soli NT - 426k DPM - Setup
    Robbey - Soli Crat

    Lone anarchists - Tower of Babil

    Celez - Soli Doc
    Loaloa - Soli Enf
    Wondershot - Nano Soldier
    Robzor - Soli Engi
    Proserpexa - Opi Agent

    Trying out civilization - Storm

  15. #35
    The largest hindrance to leveling is that it requires a huge amount of knowledge about the game and a rather large amount of credits from a main to be efficient (more so for some profs than others).

    Personally I was shaped by the slow hack'n'slash style of leveling 10+ years ago to the point where I have to remind myself that there are better options when I level today. If you're looking for that type of leveling you won't get much company, since pretty much everyone else knows there are better ways. The only ones sticking to hack'n'slash leveling are the ones who can abuse it with outside tanks, kiting NTs and similar that optimises it to a level where it can compete with other leveling options. Hence why you won't see regular teams doing ely hecks and tiigs for example.
    Avari 220/30/80 - Araghos 220/30/80 - Shishido 220/30/7x - Araninn 220/30/80

    Quote Originally Posted by Tergx
    If one of the few traders are PvPing around you and land GTH on you, take a trip to decon and it will be gone. What's the big deal hehe.

  16. #36
    It's never been easier than it is now to level up a Shade. Get your first proc on init or stun debuffs. Concentrate on evades, weapon skills and pm/si for weapon buffs. You even get your spirits for free now. So all that leaves you is armor, weapons and rolling nanos with clicksaver. Even they show up more often than most other profs nanos on clicksaver. If you have no creds you can make apocalypse armour. Rapiers drop from AI dailies.

    The lack of teaming I understand, but shades have never had it so easy.

  17. #37
    I made a soldier last week and have been leveling it I am now stuck around 100. No teams no people everything is dead.

  18. #38
    Around 100 is when I head off to Bog Golems in the Reck. They can be a bit tough to solo at first, tho. After about 10-15 levels, I'd recommend maxing evade CC, and triple implanting AAD. You should then be able to solo Ely Hecks without much trouble.

    Obviously, there's a lot of "solo" in there, and not much team. I personally like soloing, but that's not the idea behind an MMO
    Vinkera - Soli NT - 426k DPM - Setup
    Robbey - Soli Crat

    Lone anarchists - Tower of Babil

    Celez - Soli Doc
    Loaloa - Soli Enf
    Wondershot - Nano Soldier
    Robzor - Soli Engi
    Proserpexa - Opi Agent

    Trying out civilization - Storm

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