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Thread: Upcoming balance changes, and what I'm looking to get.

  1. #1

    Upcoming balance changes, and what I'm looking to get.

    Hey guys,

    It's been a while since we had a discussion about balance and stuff, and I'd like to go over some of the things I'm going to be working on getting sorted out for us that have been way over-due, and some others that would be nice to see eventually (but probably never).

    Obviously, the worst offenders, in terms of imbalance, will be getting the most attention first. Regardless of that, NT's still need a fair amount of work to be a more fun experience overall. The fun shouldn't start at 215.

    Most importantly:

    - Lowbie Garuk's nukes.
    The biggest help to lowbie NT's overall would be an alternative to AOE's. Lower level nukes that work like Garuk's wouldn't be the complete solution, but a huge step in the right direction. *points out to Michi that he said we'd be getting these last year* Just saying. Michi and I discussed this a while ago, and I did point out the potential for balance problems at some levels, so PVP'ers don't have a cow... I've already thought of that. :P

    - The effectiveness of blinds in pvm.
    Blinds are awesome. If you're not using them, you're not playing NT right. But, they're a pain to keep recasting, and the AOE blinds are in some cases stronger than the single target ones... I'm going to see if single target ones can last longer on non-player mobs, and they get a little improvement. It would only take a smallish bump to most of them to be perfect at all levels.

    - Nanobot Shelter
    Sucks. There are some many things wrong with it, where do I begin...
    The damage to nano multiplier is WAY to high without our big nanopool buff. It should be more like 50%, and even that would be annoying still. There needs to be a lowbie version that's easy to get. The actual "DamageToNano" amount is too low. It needs to be 30% for Superior and 25 for the Schoel one. Overall, get Pre-Nullity/RRFE from a soldier and don't bother casting Nanobot shelter if possible for now.

    - Nano heals
    There should be some lowbie versions of Izgimmer's Wealth added. IW and any lowbie versions should be changed from a big heal to a fast HoT.

    These would be kinda nice, but not pressing:

    - Roots
    Could use a 2 second recharge and line cooldown.

    -Absorbs
    Lower level ones could use a second or 2 off cast times.

    - Restrain Enthusiasm
    Needs lower NR check.

    - SL nukes
    These STILL need nano cost adjustments at the lower end, and the nukes need to be spread out better in terms of level lock. It would be awesome to have some lowbie AI dot's to got along with them, and some scaling with amount of MC skill. Scaling on all SL nukes would be nice, both up and down from the original casting skill.

    - Totally random suggestion.
    Add 1% nano damage efficiency to Combined Officer at all levels. Since it's % based anyway, it pretty much needs no value higher than 1 to be good at any level.

    I'm sure I've forgotten stuff, but those are the most pressing or just on my mind at the moment.

    What do you guys think? Is there something else you want that I didn't mention?
    Vinkera - Soli NT - 426k DPM - Setup
    Robbey - Soli Crat

    Lone anarchists - Tower of Babil

    Celez - Soli Doc
    Loaloa - Soli Enf
    Wondershot - Nano Soldier
    Robzor - Soli Engi
    Proserpexa - Opi Agent

    Trying out civilization - Storm

  2. #2
    Nanocost/regain balance is main priority.

    Refreshing absorbs.

    Turn ai-dots into a 2-part chainnuke. You dot x amount of char/mobs, nuke does y amount of damage to all.
    Dot has to last awhile.

    Lower lvl nanoprogramming weapons/constructs. Like mp constructs but ranged/offensive with cyberdeck tag.

    Merge nanodmg and range buffs into one scaling buff from matcrea.

    Morph with levitation, where you can cast while moving. Limited to a certain runspeed each tier, maybe a questline?

    Pvp buff that makes enemy players sit down/stand up long cd.
    Last edited by Nomad; Jul 4th, 2016 at 22:31:05.

  3. #3
    I agree that our blinds needs a great buff. For our endgame Single-target blind to do less than half of the engi aoe blind, is frankly just insulting.
    And if its because of a pvp thing, its not stronger, then make them seperate, so that in pvm its atleast a great debuff.

    I also want to say that NTs cyberdeck should use MC like weapons use attackskills.
    Make it scale, that also goes for nukes.


    If NTs stay like they are now, either weakling/useless before 215 (other than KH pimp). Then they should atleast scale up like shades, thats baaaaad until endgame, and grows into godhood.
    Last edited by Raelil; Jul 4th, 2016 at 23:27:17.
    First NT to proper pocket Ely hecks - Raesun

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelil View Post
    I agree that our blinds needs a great buff. For our endgame Single-target blind to do less than half of the engi aoe blind, is frankly just insulting.
    Don't bother doing this. Engi blinds are a completely different animal.

    Do you want:

    * Blinds broken on first hit/nuke/debuff
    * 12 second duration
    * 8s nano cool down

    Engi blinds have utility, but they aren't really great. NT blinds remove less AAO, but have completely different stats and utility.

    Comparing them is pointless. You can say you want more -AAO... but if you get more -AAO you'll also need some rebalancing. How about evades to start with? Maybe make NT evades dark blue, and remove improved dark movement for starters.

    Balance is everything. Don't ask for something that's already balanced because you might not like the result.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich View Post
    Don't bother doing this. Engi blinds are a completely different animal.

    Do you want:

    * Blinds broken on first hit/nuke/debuff
    * 12 second duration
    * 8s nano cool down

    Engi blinds have utility, but they aren't really great. NT blinds remove less AAO, but have completely different stats and utility.

    Comparing them is pointless. You can say you want more -AAO... but if you get more -AAO you'll also need some rebalancing. How about evades to start with? Maybe make NT evades dark blue, and remove improved dark movement for starters.

    Balance is everything. Don't ask for something that's already balanced because you might not like the result.
    My intentions are PVM only. Our single target blind needs sprucing up. PVP wise, whatever... The blackscreen was taken away, and I still catch hell for that. The way it works there seems to be fine, otherwise. We know from other nanos that dual casting functions based on either scenario are possible, so they should be made different.

    Blinding and evading is everything, even in PVM, but they're too short / not strong enough. NT evade CC is actually tied for second worst with doc, only beating engi. We have no heals and no pets to hide behind, so having them bumped up in PVM will help out soloing nicely, and be great utility in any team situation.

    Everyone knows Engi blind is totally bugged in PVM, and ours *should* be the best, but isn't because of that and its overall gimp -aao value comparatively.
    Vinkera - Soli NT - 426k DPM - Setup
    Robbey - Soli Crat

    Lone anarchists - Tower of Babil

    Celez - Soli Doc
    Loaloa - Soli Enf
    Wondershot - Nano Soldier
    Robzor - Soli Engi
    Proserpexa - Opi Agent

    Trying out civilization - Storm

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Vinkera View Post
    My intentions are PVM only. Our single target blind needs sprucing up. PVP wise, whatever... The blackscreen was taken away, and I still catch hell for that. The way it works there seems to be fine, otherwise. We know from other nanos that dual casting functions based on either scenario are possible, so they should be made different.

    Blinding and evading is everything, even in PVM, but they're too short / not strong enough. NT evade CC is actually tied for second worst with doc, only beating engi. We have no heals and no pets to hide behind, so having them bumped up in PVM will help out soloing nicely, and be great utility in any team situation.

    Everyone knows Engi blind is totally bugged in PVM, and ours *should* be the best, but isn't because of that and its overall gimp -aao value comparatively.
    Honestly, I think our blinds are perfectly fine the way they are, as are our evades. We arent an evade class, never will be. From a pvp perspective, giving us any more evades, or stronger debuffs, will break NT as a class. People are already crying nerf NT as it is, let's not give them any reason to break out the pitchforks.

    Having said that, I'd like to see the cooldown on Izgimmer's Wealth shortened to match that of Nanobot Aegis, and an actual endgame version of Electrifying Containment. Yes, I know there's a nuke that has a chance to stun that is a reward for the Pen yuttos quest. However, the problem with that nuke is that it does less damage than low TL5 SL nukes, and the stun never lands. I've never seen the stun from that nuke land. Ever. Obtaining that nano was the single most disappointing moment in my NT's life. What a complete waste of time, and an insult on top of that! At least Electrifying Containment actually stuns sometimes!

    you want to see a fix for endgame NTs? get us a stun that is actually useful for us.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Dethrattle View Post
    Honestly, I think our blinds are perfectly fine the way they are, as are our evades. We arent an evade class, never will be. From a pvp perspective, giving us any more evades, or stronger debuffs, will break NT as a class. People are already crying nerf NT as it is, let's not give them any reason to break out the pitchforks.

    Having said that, I'd like to see the cooldown on Izgimmer's Wealth shortened to match that of Nanobot Aegis, and an actual endgame version of Electrifying Containment. Yes, I know there's a nuke that has a chance to stun that is a reward for the Pen yuttos quest. However, the problem with that nuke is that it does less damage than low TL5 SL nukes, and the stun never lands. I've never seen the stun from that nuke land. Ever. Obtaining that nano was the single most disappointing moment in my NT's life. What a complete waste of time, and an insult on top of that! At least Electrifying Containment actually stuns sometimes!

    you want to see a fix for endgame NTs? get us a stun that is actually useful for us.
    You're coming from a PVP perspective, which isn't what I'm talking about at the moment. Except for that, I guess:
    "- Restrain Enthusiasm
    Needs lower NR check."
    Vinkera - Soli NT - 426k DPM - Setup
    Robbey - Soli Crat

    Lone anarchists - Tower of Babil

    Celez - Soli Doc
    Loaloa - Soli Enf
    Wondershot - Nano Soldier
    Robzor - Soli Engi
    Proserpexa - Opi Agent

    Trying out civilization - Storm

  8. #8
    Personally, I think the most pressing issue for Nano Technicians in PVM is adding low level Garuk nukes to the game. I can live with snares, absorbs and roots the way they are (though I've always wanted an AoE root, I never understood why only Bureaucrats and Traders have these, and not us). The most disheartening thing when leveling was to keep your nukes up to date. Low level Garuk nukes will most definitely solve this issue, and make the leveling process much more fun.
    Izgimmy
    [220/30/80 Nano Technician]
    Dellingr
    [220/30/72 Engineer]
    Avalinn
    [220/30/80 Doctor]

    Plus many more...
    Tiralinn
    [220/30/78 Bureaucrat]

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Izgimmy View Post
    The most disheartening thing when leveling was to keep your nukes up to date. Low level Garuk nukes will most definitely solve this issue, and make the leveling process much more fun.
    Agreed.

    If nothing else changes but that, I'd be pretty happy. I mean, we were promised them... last year. :S
    Vinkera - Soli NT - 426k DPM - Setup
    Robbey - Soli Crat

    Lone anarchists - Tower of Babil

    Celez - Soli Doc
    Loaloa - Soli Enf
    Wondershot - Nano Soldier
    Robzor - Soli Engi
    Proserpexa - Opi Agent

    Trying out civilization - Storm

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Izgimmy View Post
    Personally, I think the most pressing issue for Nano Technicians in PVM is adding low level Garuk nukes to the game. I can live with snares, absorbs and roots the way they are (though I've always wanted an AoE root, I never understood why only Bureaucrats and Traders have these, and not us). The most disheartening thing when leveling was to keep your nukes up to date. Low level Garuk nukes will most definitely solve this issue, and make the leveling process much more fun.
    lower level versions of Garuk's would do wonders for 120ish to 215 NTs. Maybe take nukes like Izgimmer's Last Word and reduce the Attack/Recharge to be in line with GIVA, and have them scale in a similar fashion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinkera View Post
    You're coming from a PVP perspective, which isn't what I'm talking about at the moment. Except for that, I guess:
    "- Restrain Enthusiasm
    Needs lower NR check."
    Oh most certainly. About the only time I see our toolset getting countered(aside from root/calm resist) is trying to land restrain enthusiasm. Constant Barrage does help with that, but it's just more time spent trying to land our nemesis nano, and less time spent dishing out damage. This to me, is the biggest problem with NT. Any time we spend nuking, we arent debuffing/refreshing layers, rooting, etc. Any time we spend using other parts of our toolset is time we arent nuking. I do like this aspect of NT, however I'd like to see recharge times reduced on most of our toolset, with cooldowns compensating for the reduced skill recharge. When any other proff uses a special like AS or sneak attack, they arent locked out of casting or dishing out other specials. I'd like to see NT more in line with other proffessions in this regard.

    I'd also like to give fixers an anti-NT nemesis nano, maybe a short term damage reduction nano? As it stands fixers stand no chance against well geared NTs, and it's so disheartening. every time I see a fixer I just blind and run, and if he chases me, IGT, GIVA, IU, dead fixer. It isnt fun.

    Now, since we are mostly concerned with pvm in this thread, I'll put in my two cents. How about a peice of gear(maybe HUD/Util?) that adds between 10 and 20% nano damage, at the expense of reducing evades by a large degree. Make it equippable by 150 NTs, as that's around the point where damage output between NTs and other classes begins to become vastly different. Since it nerfs evades, it';s usage in pvp will be automatically discouraged, yet it will help for pvm in team settings. Maybe we can play with this idea a little bit more?

    Also, giving us more stunning nukes like Electrifying Containment(note that Freezing Lancets seems to be broken. I've never seen the stun land) would help with PVP and PVM(particularly solo!). Even easier, Reduce the recharge on Neural Stunner to 1s, with an 8 second cooldown. This will give it a similar stun duration/recharge of Curse of Chronos, while having the ability to cast 1-2 nukes while stun is still up.

  11. #11
    I want our roots to have a cooldown and short recharge at some point, that is useful in PVM and PVP alike. PVM wise, DB3 comes to mind.

    I'd like to see our 150+ damage sorted out by the baby GIVA nukes and the second weapon. Both of which I was told would happen at some point. I do like the concept of "become totally glass to do stupid high damage" though. I do want something like that, but I don't see it happening... like ever.

    Stuns, in general... Digitalbath and I tossed that idea around, and we arrived at "meh, maybe". I don't remember exactly why we didn't see it as a good fit for our toolset. He'd know better than me anyway, but I think he's off doing something dumb, like playing Eve or whatever.

    Where I'm coming from with these suggestions above, is just playing NT feels so outdated at low levels. Every other profession I've made since feels more well rounded. Having NS in the shops now is a good first step (even though its still terribly overpriced IMO), but having these other things will take care of a big chuck of the problems.
    Vinkera - Soli NT - 426k DPM - Setup
    Robbey - Soli Crat

    Lone anarchists - Tower of Babil

    Celez - Soli Doc
    Loaloa - Soli Enf
    Wondershot - Nano Soldier
    Robzor - Soli Engi
    Proserpexa - Opi Agent

    Trying out civilization - Storm

  12. #12
    Team complete nano heal, like Alpha&Omega, but for nano.

    We have a stun, it's useful in its own way. What we could get is a delayed stun with short nano recharge, like 5s delay maybe, and some cooldown, max 3s duration. That would give alpha ability, but you can't spam ppl with stuns to stop them. I don't like the idea of combining stuns and nukes into randomness, we already have that and it's not great. Let us get some real tools that at least require a minor level of coordination to use.

    I like the idea of officers armor adding nanodmg, tie it to the spiritual bots and add %range and nanodelta aswell.

    Maybe blinds could blur the enemy screen instead of making it go completely black? I always thought the confusion was a better tool than the -aao.
    Last edited by Nomad; Jul 6th, 2016 at 18:46:51.

  13. #13
    I *really* wanted blinds to gray someone's screen, not all or nothing. But that should apply to everyone's blinds, not just ours. That was a nerf that we somewhat accepted on the false assumption it was apply to all.

    Think of the cloudy gray screen effects of Uncle Pumpkinhead events in city's, if anyone knows what I mean.
    Vinkera - Soli NT - 426k DPM - Setup
    Robbey - Soli Crat

    Lone anarchists - Tower of Babil

    Celez - Soli Doc
    Loaloa - Soli Enf
    Wondershot - Nano Soldier
    Robzor - Soli Engi
    Proserpexa - Opi Agent

    Trying out civilization - Storm

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Vinkera View Post
    - Totally random suggestion.
    Add 1% nano damage efficiency to Combined Officer at all levels. Since it's % based anyway, it pretty much needs no value higher than 1 to be good at any level.
    So, you mean spiritual armor then? I like the idea, but 1% won't be enough. They should make it the same as the current %-nanocost modifier: 1% till ql150, 2% till ql250, and 3% from there.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Mazzarin View Post
    So, you mean spiritual armor then? I like the idea, but 1% won't be enough. They should make it the same as the current %-nanocost modifier: 1% till ql150, 2% till ql250, and 3% from there.
    Keep in mind, it's also buffing MC, which should make top tier GIVA's more achievable.

    Having more than 1% would be too much at the moment.
    Vinkera - Soli NT - 426k DPM - Setup
    Robbey - Soli Crat

    Lone anarchists - Tower of Babil

    Celez - Soli Doc
    Loaloa - Soli Enf
    Wondershot - Nano Soldier
    Robzor - Soli Engi
    Proserpexa - Opi Agent

    Trying out civilization - Storm

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Vinkera View Post
    Keep in mind, it's also buffing MC, which should make top tier GIVA's more achievable.

    Having more than 1% would be too much at the moment.
    I agree with you, *but* it'd take more than 1% per piece to make me want to swap from Combined Scouts.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Dethrattle View Post
    I agree with you, *but* it'd take more than 1% per piece to make me want to swap from Combined Scouts.
    I understand that, but if we were to have improved blinds also, the additional debuffed AAO vs our lowered defense would somewhat even out, while still providing increased damage.

    With the new research, that leaves it very much possible to have a full Awakened Beast set or mix of Beast, Ofab, etc to have a max defensive setup, and swap between depending on the situation.
    Vinkera - Soli NT - 426k DPM - Setup
    Robbey - Soli Crat

    Lone anarchists - Tower of Babil

    Celez - Soli Doc
    Loaloa - Soli Enf
    Wondershot - Nano Soldier
    Robzor - Soli Engi
    Proserpexa - Opi Agent

    Trying out civilization - Storm

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Vinkera View Post
    Keep in mind, it's also buffing MC, which should make top tier GIVA's more achievable.
    Well, even if that would put you at 3k MC, which I can't imagine, it wouldn't outweigh all the goodies of enhanced kegern/jathos molybdenum. For dedicated powerlevel-AoE-nuker-toons the 1% might be a welcome addition, but not for my endgame NT...

  19. #19
    It's not supposed to be an endgame, "wow, this is so op I'm never taking it off" option. It's situational. NT's have the great privilege of both having tons of comp lit, and good abilities buffing from alphas.

    So, while other professions may have to somewhat settle on a setup and search for buffs or reset perks to swap gear, we don't have to. It's now completely practical to carry a bag or 2 with gear that can be simply swapped on to really dial in the best setup for the situation.

    What I'm getting at is, it provides us an optional setup, and something to work for. The ability to reach for top GIVA in a setup that actually makes sense. CO already provides more nanoskills and nano, but no defense or HP. So, it's a perfect platform for offensive setups. Obviously, using that setup is a calculated risk. Let's say you're laying into Beast and the Enf slips up. You'd go from full to dead before you could even think to hit nanobot aegis. But, bringing that kind of long range damage to bring down the add waves is huge. Most of the time, running around in a full Awakened Beast set (which I refer to as a more of a "mixed" setup) is more practical though.

    I mean, NT's are the super nerds of AO. Doing math, and tuning setups situationally should be really enticing to us.
    Vinkera - Soli NT - 426k DPM - Setup
    Robbey - Soli Crat

    Lone anarchists - Tower of Babil

    Celez - Soli Doc
    Loaloa - Soli Enf
    Wondershot - Nano Soldier
    Robzor - Soli Engi
    Proserpexa - Opi Agent

    Trying out civilization - Storm

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