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Thread: PvP Problems!

  1. #1

    PvP Problems!

    Hello fellow PvPers!

    The reason for this post is to discuss some of the reasons why I think PvP in AO is becoming less interesting, and I will do my very best to make sure that I mention general problems and not issues that affect only certain professions. That being said, I will try to keep it short and hope to see your comments and responses to these problems that I perceive, (if you think I’m wrong please also tell me why). Please note, the vast majority of the claims I will make below apply only to endgame PvP, many PvP ranges specifically at tl3-4 do not suffer from many of these problems. I will offer some preliminary suggestions because without them this would simply be a crying post.

    1. New Items.

    With many of the updates over the last few years we have seen new instances with lots of new items that are very lucrative for PvP setups. Some specific examples include: Gauntlet pad, Awakened BoC / Awakened Shoulderplates / DB3 Bracer. Many of these items (like the ones I just mentioned) seem to increase everything a PvPer could want! You got your extra hp, nano, AC, AAD, AAO, crit increase, etc… This means one less layer of variety in PvP setups. In order to compete at the top teir, you are either wearing these items or you are not. There is no equivalent item in many of these slots that might allow an equally powerful but more tactical choice.

    Suggestion: For a specific example: I would suggest that it would be more fun if there were several types of endgame shoulderpads. One that adds HP, one that adds Nano, one that adds AC, etc… That way, people could swap and choose what suits their profession best and even swap to a different shoulderpad for certain duels / fights. [This does not specifically have to be implemented by farming several shoulderpads, we could also have that you could screwdriver one shoulderpad to change the stat bias].

    2. The balancing.

    People have clearly worked very hard on the balancing of the PvP matchups in the game. This *has* resulted in greater balance, but has helped to turn endgame PvP into an elaborate game of rock-paper-scissors. Now more than ever, we have more of a system of “*Profession A* beats *Profession B* which beats *Profession C* et cetera…” While we do not have this kind of system 100%, it seems that with every change and addition we move further and further towards this kind of PvP reality. [Please note, this is true for endgame fully equipped PvP characters, your 220 endgame fixer still beats a lvl 175 agent, that is not what I’m referring to here!]

    Suggestion: I am wholly unqualified to suggest specific nerfs/boosts to certain professions or items or tactics. Instead I will simply suggest that allowing greater variety in viable endgame PvP setups and usable PvP items will help to take care of balancing issues far better than any changes to professions, perks or nanos.

    3. Variety is the ****e of life!

    I know that for myself and many others, we fell in love with AO because of the variety. This was what set AO apart from all the other similar games out there. In AO you can make the machinegun-enforcer and axe-wielding agent of your dreams. Note that both of these combinations would be a terrible idea for endgame PvP. However, this idea is even stronger than simply eliminating ridiculous setups from competitive PvP, since *most* professions have very few weapon choices for endgame PvP if they want to be competitive. The same goes for armor choices for many professions (although some of the more forgiving professions can now trade the few benefits they got from combined armour/ofab combination to the complete-heal benefit of the full awakened set). The new option to swap AI armor without needing to perk alien tech expertise 3 is a step in the right direction for more variety, but a step is small compared to the leap we need.

    Suggestion: Let’s boost some of the other QL 300 weapons! It seems kyr’ozch energy carbine is the only alien weapon that is viable at lvl 220 PvP, and only in certain circumstances. What about the QL 300 froob-friendly weapons? Is anybody using those for anything anyway? Let’s boost some different armors with interesting stat buffage! There are so many skills to buff and so many hidden skills also, there is room for so much variety and we aren’t using it! One last thought: Available perks increase certain skills that really force players to make their character in one very narrow path, especially at tl7, let’s rethink that maybe?


    Agree with these points? Let’s talk to the devs and bring back variety! Disagree with these points? Post why, and let’s talk about it! (Although specific examples of specific items for your specific character are not so helpful). Think I’m an idiot and you want to tear me a new one with your words? Start a new thread and I promise to read it so long as you don’t clutter this thread!

    Thanks for taking the time to read. Tru PvP 4 life!!
    -Cupid

    *PS: Can we please not talk about multiboxing? Trying to talk about real pvp here!
    **PPS: If all else fails maybe we can crowdfund a pure-froob AO server, froob pvp is still balanced and has variety!

  2. #2
    Pls listen to cupid he a smart person thx

  3. #3
    1. Endgame pvp (level 220) is broken beyond repair and for many years end game pvp was all about numbers and strategy....(team/raid forming, assist, etc). It only got worse with multiboxing ....
    2. New research line is plain stupid and proves how incompetent is FC about AO pvp.
    3. This new research should either have no level lock, just AI level requirements (AI10 = permanent AI tech 1, AI20 = permanent AI tech 2, AI30 = permanens AI3 tech) and it should give no other bonuses.
    4. As it is now those extra bonuses will allow lazy ppl and idiots to equip whatever they could not equip before, while top level twinks will only get those bonuses and will not change anything in teir set ups because there is nothing better to equip...
    5. I loved level 200 twinks because it was (for me) the most fun and chalenging level to twink. I have 5 level 200 twinks, all with pande belts including 200 Atrox Enfo. It took me 6 month to farm and twink all items neded to get to 1750 comp lit and now FC gives away 50 CL bonus to any level 200 character who spends 1 hour doing level 1 research !!!. Building level 200 twinks required lot of time and dedication and now anybody can do the same within few hours !!! For real twinkers there is nothing to improve because all good level 200 twinks wear level 300/295 AI armour and top items, anything better is level locked.
    To sum it up: FC just decreased the gap between real twinkers and random pvpers and I am afraid that this change will not make AO more popular and bring new players but rather piss off old players (hardcore twinkers) and make them quit ...

  4. #4
    Hi Awi,

    You seem to have missed the point of this thread. You addressed none of the points that I brought up, and used characters of a different level range in order to justify your own points. You even mentioned multiboxing which I specifically said was not the point of this thread. I understand you have grievances but the whole point of this thread was not to air such individual grievances. We all have old twinks that become obsolete when new content arrives, and we all feel those same frustrations, if you want to discuss that then we can make another thread for it. Allow me to reiterate, I made this thread in hopes of having discussion about endgame PvP and ways to improve it for all professions, trying to steer clear of specifics and instead make broad suggestions like increasing variety and viability. To be clear: I don't think you're wrong, I just think you posted in the wrong thread.

    Let's stay on topic people!

    ~ Cupid

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Awikun View Post
    1. Endgame pvp (level 220) is broken beyond repair and for many years end game pvp was all about numbers and strategy....(team/raid forming, assist, etc). It only got worse with multiboxing ....
    2. New research line is plain stupid and proves how incompetent is FC about AO pvp.
    3. This new research should either have no level lock, just AI level requirements (AI10 = permanent AI tech 1, AI20 = permanent AI tech 2, AI30 = permanens AI3 tech) and it should give no other bonuses.
    4. As it is now those extra bonuses will allow lazy ppl and idiots to equip whatever they could not equip before, while top level twinks will only get those bonuses and will not change anything in teir set ups because there is nothing better to equip...
    5. I loved level 200 twinks because it was (for me) the most fun and chalenging level to twink. I have 5 level 200 twinks, all with pande belts including 200 Atrox Enfo. It took me 6 month to farm and twink all items neded to get to 1750 comp lit and now FC gives away 50 CL bonus to any level 200 character who spends 1 hour doing level 1 research !!!. Building level 200 twinks required lot of time and dedication and now anybody can do the same within few hours !!! For real twinkers there is nothing to improve because all good level 200 twinks wear level 300/295 AI armour and top items, anything better is level locked.
    To sum it up: FC just decreased the gap between real twinkers and random pvpers and I am afraid that this change will not make AO more popular and bring new players but rather piss off old players (hardcore twinkers) and make them quit ...
    If only you knew how to play any of those 5 200 "twinks".

  6. #6

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Recka View Post
    If only you knew how to play any of those 5 200 "twinks".
    That reply is so dank I can hear Snoop Dogg singing "Smoke Weed Everyday" while Wiz Khalifa is rollin a 40oz blunt with golden paper
    AAYYYYYY
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  8. #8
    So wonderful to see such lively discussion about balancing issues.

    Mark my words: Individual changes to nanos, professions, or perk attacks will NEVER create any kind of balance.

    Every thread in this forum that suggests changes to individual professions or specific nanos is near-sighted, naïve, and stupid. "Rebalancing" in this way is by definition just re-unbalancing. It's like wanting to move 10 metres forwards and claiming that if we just keep sidestepping we'll get there eventually.

    Side thought: But maybe people aren't stupid, maybe they do want an imbalance, but specifically an imbalance that favours their profession. In that case, we're all doing a great job. Let's talk again when we want real balance, I'll go back to lowbie PvP in the meantime.

    Peace

    ~Cupid

  9. #9
    Disclaimer : I'm not yet pvp-er

    When I say balance, exactly when I say it I see with my mind's eye 2 weights which are balancing. If one gets heavy - it goes down and the other one goes up. So I formed myself a vision of balance. There are some examples :
    - when AAO grows, dmg goes down. the more AAO - the less the dmg
    - when crit chance goes up, the dmg goes down or AR goes down
    - when you stun someone - you get a dot on yourself, the bigger the stun - the bigger the dot
    - if the trader is getting your AMS, you get his drains and he is drained up or you get his evades+yours
    - if the doctor is healing you, he get stunned after that, or he's getting your hp missing out of his own
    - if my AAD is geting into the sky, my nano skills are going into the ground / or my AR is going down
    - if you blind someone, you are getting slowed down

    Those are only some ideas on how to balance stuff, ofc only for PVP enabled (because is no point to lower dmg of one who got high AAO in pve).

    Maybe I'm wrong ...
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  10. #10
    PigBrother,

    Very interesting ideas. Your thinking that large advantages should come with sacrifices is perfectly on point. Your implementation is ... cumbersome.

    If we had the system you suggest, stats would be changing wildly during fights, turning every fight into a confused frenzy. This system would greatly favor professions like engineers and nanotechnicians that aren't relying on basic attack versus def. Also keep in mind that AAD is very helpful for not being perked, but regular hits, special attacks, pets and nanos still hit with a decent success rate.

    I think that what you are suggesting is actually a lot closer to what I am suggesting than you might think, your advantage-disadvantage pairing is applied to characters themselves, whereas I suggest that these are applied to the stats of items. In this way, we remove the awkward need to have a different system for PvE and PvP like you mentioned, and allow even greater variety in endgame PvP since people can choose which advantages they want and which disadvantages they are willing to suffer, instead of these being applied arbitrarily. Not to mention the fact that in your system someone could buff your attack rating as a debuff to your defense and then kill you before you know what's happening!

    In short: Your thinking is perfect, exactly the kind of changes that we need, no more of the current trend of just pushing more and more of all the stats on every character and instead making people think about their toon and their tactic. Your implementation idea is something that could theoretically work, but would probably drive all PvPers away from the game. (I think nobody would play doc if they spent such a large amount of their playtime being stunned!)<-- that's anecdotal I know but the picture in my head is funny!

    Thanks for the first reply that actually discusses balancing!

    ~ Cupid

  11. #11
    i think we should just nerf agent, engi, adv and get over with this ''balance crapp'' taken like 10 years now and never had a nerf.
    wouldnt ned to be much more threads if they just nerf em WITHOUT giving other professions anything.

  12. #12
    Hi LeQuack,

    Thanks for your input, but I fear that nerfing individual professions will never balance anything. The problems that you have when fighting against those professions would be equally solved by giving you more variety in viable PvP setups. Your suggestion simply imbalances the game in a different direction, one that favors you and the professions you play. I will repeat, your kind of suggestion is near-sighted, naïve, and stupid. Not to mention the fact that this kind of suggestion has been tried over and over again, we can state with certainty that nerfing individual professions is NOT the solution. Please stop suggesting this non-productive re-unbalancing.

    ~ Cupid

  13. #13
    R.I.P. Actual balancing. I guess the real fact is that people don't want balance, they just want to win. Well, don't say I didn't try!

    ~ Cupid

  14. #14
    Hai Cupid!
    "A champion is someone who can stand up, even against all odds."
    /Acera
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    /Ceradark
    /Ceraeng
    /Excera
    /Saviourz

  15. #15
    they could balance the professions by fixing pvp mechanics like aimedshot and evades, currently this game is all-or-nothing in pvp in the sense that twinks are able to create full defensive stops in pvp and aimedshot is used as a counter to that AND high health pools like enfo.
    My suggestions:

    -fix defensive checks in pvp so that dodge chance is capped VS AR, and so at the same time evades are more effective with a lower skill.
    -make AS actually check dodge or duck in pvp (but give it a 50% check or something so it is still accurate, it is an aimed shot afterall, or like 35% duck 35% dodge). alternatively make AS check scale so that scale increases make AS more likely to hit while scale decreases is like an AS dodging mechanic (because agent vs agent suxxorz, we r counter sniprz)
    -change perks so that you cant just load up 8 of them at a time. make it so that you can only cast one perk action at a time to prevent people from keybinding everything to one key, getting within LOS for 1 second and releasing an undodgeable alpha...
    Quote Originally Posted by Soju View Post
    #BAN_SOJU

  16. #16
    Hi all, I have solved problem of pvp being too boring in AO. I have found that Mind Controlling people off the edge at LM in Arathi Basin is much fun.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Blazeit420 View Post
    they could balance the professions by fixing pvp mechanics like aimedshot and evades, currently this game is all-or-nothing in pvp in the sense that twinks are able to create full defensive stops in pvp and aimedshot is used as a counter to that AND high health pools like enfo.
    My suggestions:

    -fix defensive checks in pvp so that dodge chance is capped VS AR, and so at the same time evades are more effective with a lower skill.
    -make AS actually check dodge or duck in pvp (but give it a 50% check or something so it is still accurate, it is an aimed shot afterall, or like 35% duck 35% dodge). alternatively make AS check scale so that scale increases make AS more likely to hit while scale decreases is like an AS dodging mechanic (because agent vs agent suxxorz, we r counter sniprz)
    -change perks so that you cant just load up 8 of them at a time. make it so that you can only cast one perk action at a time to prevent people from keybinding everything to one key, getting within LOS for 1 second and releasing an undodgeable alpha...
    Are you aware that your "fixes" have already been implemented?
    1. has been implemented since the beginning. There is a fix % at which you get a guaranteed hit. This is how you are able to hit GA fixers with regular hits. Defs also follow diminishing returns as you have suggested.
    2. already implemented, it is called Deflect
    3. You literally cannot queue more perks than that in one go, as most perks build on each other, I seriously doubt there is any profession in the game that has more than 8 separate dmg perks. Besides, Qing all your perks is usually a poor idea in pvp
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  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by aramsunat View Post
    Are you aware that your "fixes" have already been implemented?
    1. has been implemented since the beginning. There is a fix % at which you get a guaranteed hit. This is how you are able to hit GA fixers with regular hits. Defs also follow diminishing returns as you have suggested.
    2. already implemented, it is called Deflect
    3. You literally cannot queue more perks than that in one go, as most perks build on each other, I seriously doubt there is any profession in the game that has more than 8 separate dmg perks. Besides, Qing all your perks is usually a poor idea in pvp
    3. Soldier has at least 11

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by aramsunat View Post
    Are you aware that your "fixes" have already been implemented?
    1. has been implemented since the beginning. There is a fix % at which you get a guaranteed hit. This is how you are able to hit GA fixers with regular hits. Defs also follow diminishing returns as you have suggested.
    2. already implemented, it is called Deflect
    3. You literally cannot queue more perks than that in one go, as most perks build on each other, I seriously doubt there is any profession in the game that has more than 8 separate dmg perks. Besides, Qing all your perks is usually a poor idea in pvp
    My ideas havent been totally implemented yet:
    1. defenses have diminishing returns but currently having for example (going to use tl2 as an example here) 300 evade skill + 100 AAD will rarely evade 400 AR skill enough to justify the cost of impanting/IP'ing/gearing for evades. Having a defensive stat that does not go above your opponents AR seems to have very little effect at all... I have felt this way since the beginning. Diminishing returns may exist but it certainly doesn't flow the other way.
    2. Deflect is broken in implementation. it reaches a flat 15% chance to deflect at 3000 skill (iirc). That means you get a 1% chance of bonus evades every 200 deflect skill essentially. Sure AS can miss via deflect chance. But it is not likely until very endgame when people actually have the spare IP to skill in near-useless skills like deflect. If the chance to deflect was multiplied by your dodge/duck/evade skill or even the agg/def slider somehow so that it was more useful, then maybe deflect would be worth some IP. For now I dont think you can consider this an implementation of my idea. Also I still think that scale reduction should affect AS chance. It just makes sense thematically.
    3. my agent has at least that many at level 215. hell, my tl3 shade almost has that many. as for queueing all perks being a poor idea in pvp, it can also be a great strategy.... depending on who you are fighting and when you queue them all. Again the problem here is not that DD professions have too many perk attacks, its that they can all be executed simultaneously (not the damage but the skill checks).
    Last edited by Blazeit420; Feb 15th, 2017 at 02:08:46.
    Quote Originally Posted by Soju View Post
    #BAN_SOJU

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