Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 41 to 51 of 51

Thread: Mature game economy

  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by aramsunat View Post
    I am sorry, but Avari is right, you are not. I understand that you apply valid IRL economic theory, but the game economy is quite different in many respects just to name a few:
    1. IRL markets are very slow to react ie. your salary does not change proportionately in case there is a sudden bump of inflation. In AO economy you can instantaneously adjust your "income". ex: "higher prices? hookey, I increase the prices of my levelling service!" -> inflation comes to an equilibrium
    2. IRL DIY is not an option usually. You have to specialize on a single area (your work), you get money for it that you can spend on goods. You can only indirectly and only very very slightly influence the price and supply of goods by making a "buy or not to buy" decision. For certain goods the prices are completely inelastic, you MUST buy them for the given price no matter what (eg food, utilities - the IRL cred sinks). In the game you can completely opt out of cred sinks, nothing compels you to buy anything and you can directly influence the supply by farming it for yourself. Too expensive? Bang! I will farm it. Fortunately, pretty much everything in this game is obtainable by raiding/farming (hasn't always been the case!).

    Actually pre-ipande/icity/collector AO economy was much closer to the IRL economy where you were forced to WORK (farm credits or other ingame currency such as raidpoints) to get otherwise (almost) unobtainable items.
    To be honest it was much much more difficult to be a noob back then even with the healthy population.

    Sploited creds harm the economy, that is true, but so does/did blood plasma, pearls, ingots and other shopfood that create "wealth" out of thin air. Similarly does a returning rich player, who starts spending, even though his/her creds are 100% "legit". These creds do disturb the market, but as explained above, the AO markets are quick to react so the harmful effect is only felt in a very short timeframe. Max a month ingame time.

    As a side note: the only whines I see are usually from people who sustain their accounts with GRACE keys and are distressed, that they cannot keep up with cred sploiters or otherwise very rich players. GRACE is a flawed concept from good intentions, but is probably the single most economy disrupting item of all.
    Just a shout out to everyone that this post is spot on.

    I'd like anyone complaining about obtainability of items to think about the following: My first Burden of Competence was obtained after raiding 6-7 days a week on a bi-weekly basis for a full 5+ months in 2005. At the time it was the most efficient way of obtaining a Burden of Competence in the game. I would not wish it on anyone else to have to go through that today.
    Avari 220/30/80 - Araghos 220/30/80 - Shishido 220/30/7x - Araninn 220/30/80

    Quote Originally Posted by Tergx
    If one of the few traders are PvPing around you and land GTH on you, take a trip to decon and it will be gone. What's the big deal hehe.

  2. #42
    Now answer 2 questions:
    1. How much credits could you farm (in a legit way) back there if you spend all that time farming ingots/pearls or whatever you liked compared to buying lootright back there?
    2. How much credits could you farm now (in a legit way) compared to present price of BoC?

    If we are talking about legit way farming (that means selling whatever you farm to shop terminals and not other players who happens to have infinite number of sploited credits) your farming income is more or less the same (maybe bit higher because with all patches your farming character do more DD/hour), but its nowhere close to increase in price of BoC...

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by hans76 View Post
    1. How much credits could you farm (in a legit way) back there if you spend all that time farming ingots/pearls or whatever you liked compared to buying lootright back there?
    2. How much credits could you farm now (in a legit way) compared to present price of BoC?
    There's so much wrong with these two question I don't even know where to begin. Please read the most recent post by "Aramsunat" carefully. He explains perfectly why you are not hurt by inflation.

    By the way, what on earth do you mean by "in a legit way"? It seems like you are trying to say that we can only discuss earning credits through shop food, which is complete bogus. Every way of making credits in this game through game play is "legit". The only way of making credits that is not "legit" is called exploiting... By your logic (and I use that word in its absolute broadest possible interpretation) you only want to discuss selling items to shops and are not allowed to include selling items to other players, but at the same time you are allowed to include buying items from other players? Like what the ****?! There is absolutely no logic here... do you even have a point to make?
    Last edited by Avari; Feb 13th, 2017 at 11:51:37.
    Avari 220/30/80 - Araghos 220/30/80 - Shishido 220/30/7x - Araninn 220/30/80

    Quote Originally Posted by Tergx
    If one of the few traders are PvPing around you and land GTH on you, take a trip to decon and it will be gone. What's the big deal hehe.

  4. #44
    My 2 rubika credit: easier to get credit these days on AO. In the old days... you climb up two sand dunes just to get robo junks to sell ,etc 👍🏽
    "Don't think...feel, it's like a finger pointing towards the moon"

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Avari View Post
    There's so much wrong with these two question I don't even know where to begin. Please read the most recent post by "Aramsunat" carefully. He explains perfectly why you are not hurt by inflation.
    1. I am still hurt by inflation, or my savings are, and that cant be denied.
    2. I can live with it because I ve been playing AO for over 13 years and have many finished 220s for farming anything I need and/or selling items and lootrights. However any new player (if there are any) is doomed to quit within max 1-2 months of playing. Because he can hardly afford even basic implants and nanos from shops and when he see prices on shoping channels his frustration will grow even more. To make things worse as he is strugling with set up and leveling he can hardly find any teams and only meet some greedy players who would demand milions of credits for leveling services.

    Quote Originally Posted by Avari View Post
    By the way, what on earth do you mean by "in a legit way"? It seems like you are trying to say that we can only discuss earning credits through shop food, which is complete bogus.
    You really dont understand. Of course credits are used for trading among players but let me explain it in another way. When AO was first launched every new player started with 0 credits and could get credits by doing 1 of 3 things:
    1. Looting corpses.
    2. Selling any yesdrop item to shop terminal.
    3. Geting credits from NPC as quest reward.
    Only those 3 actions "created new credits" in AO economy.

    He could of course sell something to other players and get credits from them but this did not create any new credits, as credits only changed owner.
    The level of prices was more or less reflecting the time needed to farm/get item on your own. Thats why rare items were always expensive and common cheap.

    Quote Originally Posted by Avari View Post
    Every way of making credits in this game through game play is "legit". The only way of making credits that is not "legit" is called exploiting... By your logic (and I use that word in its absolute broadest possible interpretation) you only want to discuss selling items to shops
    Player who killed a mob and looted it then sold this item to other player or shop terminal earned those credits in legit way.
    Exploiter found a way how to duplicate an item (for example stack of 50 000 QL300 Health and nano stim) so he can sell it for hundreds of millions to shop terminal and repeat as many times as he wants.
    Such exploits created an infinite source of credits which flooded economy and caused inflation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Avari View Post
    and are not allowed to include selling items to other players, but at the same time you are allowed to include buying items from other players? Like what the ****?! There is absolutely no logic here... do you even have a point to make?
    You miss a point again...
    The problem is that all credits look the same and every player (especially exploiter) has many alts so you will never know if credits that you are paid came from legit play or were created by exploits.

    During last 10 years more and more ways of earning legit credits were removed:
    First ingots from Hecklers
    Then bounties from S10
    and at the same time more and more "credit sinks" were implemented:
    Org city upkeeps
    SL garden nanos
    Greedy Shade nanos
    GMI tax

    Somehow inflation is going up all the time ???
    Please dont give me BS about a lot of veterans (who had a lot of credits from selling ingots) returning to AO and causing this inflation ...

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by hans76 View Post
    [...]
    I'll say this: No new player will have any problem earning enough credits to sustain their leveling if they get in an active org where they can learn from people how to make credits efficiently. Blitz nanos, make basic armor, kill dynas... It's easy to generate an income when you know what you can do at specific level ranges. I'm completely baffled why you are so hard-focused on shop food. It makes zero sense to me to try and make shop food your primary source of income regardless of your level.

    One last thing. Savings are hurt by inflation, which both I and several other people have also conceded. Nobody is disagreeing with you on that. What everyone is telling you is that just because your savings loose value it doesn't mean that the economy is broken. It just means that you can't live off past deeds forever. In my humble oppinion that's a good thing. If you are forced to stay active in the game both you and I prosper, and you'll have a much easier time equipping your characters than at almost any other point in the history of this game.
    Last edited by Avari; Feb 13th, 2017 at 17:10:30.
    Avari 220/30/80 - Araghos 220/30/80 - Shishido 220/30/7x - Araninn 220/30/80

    Quote Originally Posted by Tergx
    If one of the few traders are PvPing around you and land GTH on you, take a trip to decon and it will be gone. What's the big deal hehe.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Avari View Post
    just because your savings loose value it doesn't mean that the economy is broken. It just means that you can't live off past deeds forever. In my humble oppinion that's a good thing. If you are forced to stay active in the game both you and I prosper, and you'll have a much easier time equipping your characters than at almost any other point in the history of this game.
    QFT!

    Although it would be a great dissertation topic on the valuation of items in AO. It's a rather complex and interesting subject. The basic unit of measure of work, ie the gold standard is Pearls, as it is the single highest income you can earn in a given time the legit way without player interaction. So it would seem logical, that the price of BoC should equal the credits earned by farming pearls for the same duration as it takes to farm a BoC. However this logic is flawed. It does not consider in the facts that the Beast is pretty much impossible to solo, so you need a team of able players and a better equipped character than it is necessary to farm pearls. Also factor in the time lost due to waiting for team to assemble, player mistakes during the raid, bugged bosses, loot randomness, chance of others winning it instead of you etc. Also factor in that an item that is lootable right now worths more than an item lootable later. Consider that farming pearls is soul crushingly boring. These factors are hard to quantify, hence the arbitrary high price.

    Now, consider that playing casually (2 hours a day), you can farm around 30-40 mil daily from pearls. In two weeks that is around 500m. An 1b BoC lootright doesn't seem so scary after all.

    Large amounts of illicit cred influx is bad for sure, not going to argue much about that, but even without any sploit whatsoever, the inflation would be more or less the same. With population decline came a large amount of credit concentration (a quitting player is unlikely to hoard credits) and sooner or later it got concentrated in the hands of the small population we have today. Exchanges still happen, but the denomination of the exchange is different.
    Any noob would have an easy time these days. In the current state of the economy, blitzing nanos, farming RK/SL dynas, and providing minor services have never been so profitable compared to the soulless pearl/blood plasma farming.
    But then you only need to farm as much creds to be able to afford to buy shop nanos and implants and it was NEVER hard, in fact, most of the time if you join an org you might get a handout of 5m from someone and its like peanuts compared to an experienced player's "riches" while making a difference in the early start. Helps a lot but not a must.

    As far as the most coveted items are concerned...
    1, they are not meant to be equipped by noobs after two weeks of playing
    2, let the noob do the content instead of lootright buying ffs
    * Cryborg Nano-Technician - Have a shoulder to cry on!
    Aramlash Fixer - Can't catch me!
    Aramsunat Engineer - 4 Blockers of the Apocalypse


    Devil Inside

  8. #48
    Avari and Aramsunat we are talking about 2 different things:
    I am talking about healthy economy and try to explain why dupe items/credit exploits is hurting AO economy.
    You are both trying to prove that nothing happened and AO economy is OK.

    If you cant understand logical resoning and economical facts then maybe you'll understand the following (moral explanation)

    Some players (exploiters) are duplicating items and create a massive amounts of credits that is inflating AO economy!
    Some do it in order to make some IRL profit selling those credit to creditsellers companies, some do it for fun, some do it t hurt AO!!!

    You both are trying to convince me (and other players) that in fact it does not hurt economy, me or new players ...

    Ppl generating those credits are exploiters/cheaters/thieves !!!
    It is sad that FC cant deal with them/dont care but we as AO comunity should rather make a fight against them rather than pretend that eveything is OK and economy is fine.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Fluxxxx View Post
    (snip)
    Because they overinflated the market in such a way it's beyond fixing now.
    (Snip)


    Actually, if FC wanted to adjust the economy, and was willing to forego short term cash to lengthen the health of the game, this CAN be addressed.

    Make GRACE only buyable in-game. As in you buy your GRACE key with credits. From a shop terminal. Not going to players. Until the credits overall are lowered.

    Not saying it will happen. Not even saying it is the best idea. But ... there are ways to make this hairnet if that were what they wanted to do. Problem is any actual solution requires FC to make it happen and the methods are all going to cost them in the short term.
    Theonara: "...but if I weren't married, some days I'd offer to kiss you. You just make too much sense. "
    Maeventura: "Sigh, once again I can but only bow for hyde's wisdom."

    ...."Social" keys, lightbars, wen-wens......Better tabbing!

    ... First Troxdoc with QL300 symbs (AO 17.0 pre-Albtraum guide) ... as well as first with 12 of 13 Alpha symbs.
    ... First TL1 Clanner with Omni-Armed Forces armor (pics) (pointless yet hawt)


    <original UI hacker ... when not actively playing AO ... email = 'hyde [at] athenpaladins • org'>

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by hans76 View Post
    Avari and Aramsunat we are talking about 2 different things:
    I am talking about healthy economy and try to explain why dupe items/credit exploits is hurting AO economy.
    You are both trying to prove that nothing happened and AO economy is OK.
    It is a lot less broken than you might think (because you only compare the prices of what is now and what was in, say, 2006. This is what we were explaining.

    Quote Originally Posted by hans76 View Post
    If you cant understand logical resoning and economical facts then maybe you'll understand the following (moral explanation)

    Some players (exploiters) are duplicating items and create a massive amounts of credits that is inflating AO economy!
    Some do it in order to make some IRL profit selling those credit to creditsellers companies, some do it for fun, some do it t hurt AO!!!

    You both are trying to convince me (and other players) that in fact it does not hurt economy, me or new players ...
    We never said that. But it doesn't hurt the economy as much as you think.

    Quote Originally Posted by hans76 View Post
    Ppl generating those credits are exploiters/cheaters/thieves !!!
    So are the people who download music for free. Yet their action do not hurt others that much

    Quote Originally Posted by hans76 View Post
    It is sad that FC cant deal with them/dont care but we as AO comunity should rather make a fight against them rather than pretend that eveything is OK and economy is fine.
    Yeah, let's fight:
    Rule #1: Do not buy credz for IRL money, do not buy GRACE for the purpose of selling it
    Rule #2: Do not conduct business with players who offer payments way above the prevailing market price
    Rule #3: Don't be greedy, do not pump up your prices just because you heard that your friend sold something for a ridiculous amount.
    Rule #4: Blitz nanos from missions, not GMI
    Rule #5: Generally avoid GMI transactions, use the shopping channels.
    Rule #6: Refrain from buying lootrights.

    As far as FC is concerned, they have to close the leaking tap. No need to fix anything else like removing credz etc.

    By the way, let's imagine that FC obliterates all credits ingame and fixes all possible exploits to generate cash out of thin air. Here's what is going to happen: people will farm pearls like crazy. Like. Crazy. Since you have a life you are not going to farm as much, plus you won't be able to compete with teams who will do inf missions / occupy farming spots. Let's say you farm 100m and your account is about to be frozen soon. You fling your 100m with a swagger: wtb GRACE! Then you realize that the price of Grace is 400m. Then you will go to the forums and say that the game economy is broken. Same principle as now, just the amounts are different. But the ratios are the same.
    Last edited by aramsunat; Feb 14th, 2017 at 07:08:27.
    * Cryborg Nano-Technician - Have a shoulder to cry on!
    Aramlash Fixer - Can't catch me!
    Aramsunat Engineer - 4 Blockers of the Apocalypse


    Devil Inside

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by hans76 View Post
    You both are trying to convince me (and other players) that in fact it does not hurt economy, me or new players ...
    I have yet to see you (or anyone else for that matter) put forth any explanation on how they are hurt on a practical level. It's all very theoretical about blood plasma, pearls and some hear-say about people quitting over the economy.

    New players have an easier time making credits and buying the stuff they need than ever. High level players have easier access to high level loot and the credits they can make off of selling it than ever. Where is this broken economy you are talking about?! What is the clear sign, that something is "broken"? Why is it that I, as a very casual player with 5-10 hours of playtime a week, am not feeling this broken market every time I open the GMI panel?

    The only thing I hear is some complaining about exploiters. Sure, it's unfair that some people exploit credits, and it really sucks that it creates a large influx of credits making it difficult to handle transactions of high value stuff due to the 1 bill limit on characters. As long as I as a player can still function in the game it's all a side show, however. It really has no impact on my play time other than having to deal with a few extra zeros here and there. I still get the same value out of the time I put into the game.
    Avari 220/30/80 - Araghos 220/30/80 - Shishido 220/30/7x - Araninn 220/30/80

    Quote Originally Posted by Tergx
    If one of the few traders are PvPing around you and land GTH on you, take a trip to decon and it will be gone. What's the big deal hehe.

Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •