tradeskill advantages and disadvantages eng/trade

[Darksyphon7]

I got really bored last night after an argument with a trader about "how all the tradeskill increasing engineer items increase more than maestros do", so I did a little comparison sheet with all the profession specific items/buffs that traders and engineers have easy access to (As in, no buff begging needed)...
here it is!

***ENGINEER***

NAME				ME	EE	QFT	NP	WS	CHEM	PT	CL	(INT)
Construction Sleeves(2)		10	10	10	0	6	0	0	0	0
Repairman's Hat*		10	10	10	0	10	0	0	5	0
Helmet of Technical Ceremonies*	0	0	10	0	0	0	10	0	0
Modified A-4000 NCU-sheet*	0	0	0	40	0	0	0	0	0
Breasplate of Tech Ceremonies	20	20	0	10	0	10	0	10	0
HUD Upgrade: Personal S.T.M	0	35	35	0	0	0	0	0	0
Small Ebony Figure (QL250)	0	0	0	20	0	0	0	20	0
Small Ebony Figure (QL200)	0	0	0	20	0	0	0	0	5
Philosopher's Stone (nano)	0	0	0	0	0	62	62	0	0

*head, none can be worn together

Total increase (total single increase):

Mechanical Engineer:	40
Electrical Engineering: 75
Quantum FT:		55
Nano Programming:	70
Weapon Smithing:	16
Chemistry:		72
Pharmacological Tech:	72
Computer Literacy:	35
Intelligence:		5


***TRADER***

NAME					ME	EE	QFT	NP	WS	CHEM	PT	CL	(INT)
Barter Armor Gloves			0	10	10	0	0	10	0	0	0
Maestro: Electrical Engineering(nano)	0	125	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Maestro: Field Quantum Physics(nano)	0	0	125	0	0	0	0	0	0
Maestro: Mechanical Engineering(nano)	125	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Maestro: Pharmaceutical(nano)		0	0	0	0	0	0	125	0	0
Maestro: Weapon Smithing(nano)		0	0	0	0	125	0	0	0	0
Trading Mogul(nano)			0	0	0	0	0	0	0	260	0
Small Ebony Figure (QL251)		0	0	0	20	0	0	0	20	0
Deformed Mantidae Mandibles		0	0	30	0	0	0	0	0	0
Ai-X44 Android Head			0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	15


Total increase (total single increase):

Mechanical Engineer:	125
Electrical Engineering: 135
Quantum FT:		165
Nano Programming:	20
Weapon Smithing:	125
Chemistry:		10
Pharmacological Tech:	125
Computer Literacy:	280
Intelligence:		15


NAME			INC	WINNER
Mechanical Engineer:	85	Trader
Electrical Engineering: 60	Trader
Quantum FT:		110	Trader
Nano Programming:	50	Engineer
Weapon Smithing:	109	Trader
Chemistry:		62	Engineer
Pharmacological Tech:	55	Trader
Computer Literacy:	245	Trader
Intelligence:		10	Trader

wow, we won something (two, actually!)




**Just for reference, I stuck INT in there because INT obviously increase tradeskills, and we each had an int increasing item...




**ALSO note that some of the items for engineers are HARD TO GET, and maestros you can find in a damn mission

[coldwarkid]

Excellent stuff. I've been using a rough across the board figure of "about +40" for tradeskills from Engineer items in a few threads recently, largely ones where Traders have been asking for their own tradeskill items (fair enough) to counter the advantage Engineers get from their uber tradeskill items (not fair anough, they're not that uber). The same sort of people you've been arguing with, apparently

Interesting to see that we came out on top in a couple of areas, especially nanoprogramming where I hadn't thought we were particularly strong. It's just a pity that the items for it are so difficult to get hold of.

Cheers,

~R~

[Darksyphon7]

Also note
www.pixelred.com/sepp/EngineerVSTraderTS.gif

Solitus skill caps would look like this (assumed maxed abilities)
Data based off AO Skill Emulator. May not be 100% accurate*

***ENGINEER***
Mechanical Engineering:		719
Electrical Engineering:		719
Quantum Force field Technology:	719
Weapon Smithing:		718
Pharma Tech:			659
Nano Progra:			719
Computer Literacy:		719
Psychology:			659
Chemistry:			719

***TRADER***
Mechanical Engineering:		719
Electrical Engineering:		719
Quantum Force field Technology:	719
Weapon Smithing:		718
Pharma Tech:			719
Nano Progra:			719
Computer Literacy:		659
Psychology:			719
Chemistry:			719


Differences:
Pharma Tech:			60 trader
Computer Literacy:		60 engineer

*I doubt these results because of the colors of the engineer and trader tradeskills. If anyone can back up or disprove my data please do so

[Deoine]

NOTE: Maestro: Pharmameticals increases.. Pharma Tech, NOT Chemistry.

[Krabbus]

to balance this out, give engineers a 20,40,60 tradeskill buffline that buffs ME,EE,QFT,WS... that DON'T stack with maestroes...

[Darksyphon7]

Originally posted by Jerrikk
NOTE: Maestro: Pharmameticals increases.. Pharma Tech, NOT Chemistry.

OOPS


good call dude, thanks

*fixed it

[Noer]

Just a little add to your otherwise good sheet.

Ai-X44 Android Head doesn't drop.

And the engies can get buffed by the maestros. So engies do actually make it out as excellent tradeskillers afterall.

[Darksyphon7]

Originally posted by Noer
Just a little add to your otherwise good sheet.

Ai-X44 Android Head doesn't drop.

And the engies can get buffed by the maestros. So engies do actually make it out as excellent tradeskillers afterall.

Right, noer, BUT in my first post I mentioned "easy access". Traders don't have to beg for buffs, that's what I'm getting at :P

[Krabbus]

Originally posted by Noer
And the engies can get buffed by the maestros. So engies do actually make it out as excellent tradeskillers afterall.

But what's wrong giving engineers a 20,40,60 buffline that buffs ME,EE,QFT,WS? This way will we be equal to traders conserning tradeskills, but when you have to do to superior tradeskill you should ask assistance of a trader.

Other thing, it's annoying to beg for buffs every 30 minutes, they really don't last long...

[Destractor]

I am hopefull that we will get trade skill buffs soon.

Reasoning:

In the past Fixers had to get SMG buffs from a trader -> fixers complained about having to find buffs -> fixers got their own line of SMG buffs.

In the past Adventurers had to get 1he/pistol buffs from a trader -> Adventurers complained about having to find buffs -> Adventurers got their own line of 1he/pistol buffs.

read the same for soldiers and enforcers.

This would surgest that FC want's to remove some of the buff begging side. (at least for weapons). Maybe this is more for giving us nano skill buffs. (bot=primary weapon)


NT's complained that metas were better at np, so FC gave them a np buff.


The question is, do FC listen to engineers?

As I have said before, FC appears to have double standards for buff begging. To engies they say it is part of the game and should continue, to all other professions they say have a buff for your main skills.

[Phoxtrot0]

Perhaps Engineer should be renamed "Profession for those who want it hard" ?


Then we couldn't complain about anything any more...

[Letah]

Is engie a hard profession? I would think so, but they got a very big plus regarding solo play. It's just a little sad that the pets suck so much that they are useless in teaming + missions.

Funny thing is that in the past engies/mps were most sought after for their tanking of claws, shades, medusas etc. Too bad that's something thats only done till 70-100ish

[_________KrazyKanuck]

A engineer is not a top solo class. Its more middle of the road but being about the only thing engies are 1/2 decent at we get good at it cause we do it alot. Crats, MPs, GA fixers, Enforcers, Martial Artists and really high level(190+) docs are all better soloers then a engie.

Engineers as a character are the absolute worst for tanking(yes worst) so we have to rely 110% on a horribly unreliable bot who you never know might disappear for awhile on you. And having no method of add management besides a trimmer which MIGHT work in any given situation.

I went out hunting in PW the other day and i had enough problems with the sand mantis hives just getting to be boss before being killed there. (the sand mantis' were yellow and slightly lower level then i was)

The most effective place for engies to solo because of that is in missions which is ironic considering how horrible the pathing is in those missions. I don't know many engies who can stand soloing for very long once they've past level 150.

And when you say soloing what do you consider soloing?? using your own buffs or just fighting alone?? Because if you are truely soloing using your own buffs then engies are probably one of the worst soloers due to the fact we are the only prof which i am aware of which has to re-equip their main weapon everytime we log on. If we were using a self cast bot lol? damn would we ever suck. Especially those who don't have the fortune i do of getting a +55 MC/ST from the notum wars items.

My nanogimped trader can solo almost as effectively as my engie at the same level now and he is horribly gimped and not very well equiped. In short it only seems like engies are great soloers because we end up doing it so much we become very good at it.

[Letah]

and really high level(190+) docs are all better soloers then a engie

100% not true We can live yes, but since our dmg output is so low it takes ages; unlike an engie pet, or 190+ ma, soldier.

I know my husband Octo used to solo a lot even at the 190+s, and it went way better then other classes. Because of the new primus camps we can hunt outside up to 200 quiet effectively. It's just too bad that wont get you tokens.

[coldwarkid]

Originally posted by KrazyKanuck
And having no method of add management besides a trimmer which MIGHT work in any given situation.

Blind auras. These really do work well for adds, as long as your bot can cope with the opposition one at a time. Doesn't help at all if individual opponents are capable of shredding him, but great for anything less.

The consensus of opinion, backed up by the relevant database extracts, seems to be that the aggro trimmer only has to be applied once (or possibly once per zone) and that the effect is then permanent (or until you zone ). I used to spam the aggro trimmer too, but it doesn't actually appear to be necessary. Just trim the bot and forget about it.

Don't forget also that the +ve agg/def trimmer will help a bit with aggro, as will the new AMS buffs and the snare aura. The AMS buffs just add to damage output, but the snare has an actual honest-to-god taunt attached. If all else fails and you can't seem to shake aggro, go full def. It's surprising how often this works, especially if the bot is fully trimmed and buffed.

That said, surprise aggro is still a problem and I agree with you that our rep for soloing is partly because of our poor rep for teaming. Certainly, before blinds ticked on cast (a patch or two ago) we were virtually defenceless against adds. The AMS buffs and snare auras weren't around then either, so soloing was tough. The situation's now a lot better than it used to be, but there are still plenty of classes which can solo at least as well as we do.

Cheers,

~R~

EDIT: Corrected smiley

[_________KrazyKanuck]

Originally posted by Letah


100% not true We can live yes, but since our dmg output is so low it takes ages; unlike an engie pet, or 190+ ma, soldier.

I know my husband Octo used to solo a lot even at the 190+s, and it went way better then other classes. Because of the new primus camps we can hunt outside up to 200 quiet effectively. It's just too bad that wont get you tokens.

dunno i was teamed with a high level doc the other day andhe was doing some smoking damage. I dont remember what gun he was using but he definately outdamaged me and my pet.(and thats a fact i was using damage dumper) he finished second on the team in damage behind only the enforcer. he was level 192 i think however i don't remember the name off the top of my head. and no offense but engie damage from pets isn't great. Unless you have all the AR nanos are level 200 and have mochams running with a trader for a wrangler. My engie pet has no 10k AS or FA or anything like that. He does not get the benefit of any crit items. and because he is a MA based pet he gets parried quite often.

My trader with a HD will outdamage my engie pet assuming the trader doesn't crit at all. When you get a crit buff or 2 on the trader and he shells out a 4.5k every 10th hit or so the damage of a engie pet isn't even comparable. And thats a gun with no specials i have to use cause i accidently gimped my trader.

Octo being level 200 is not exactly a fair case to compare engies soloing abilities. And once again the reason some engies are such good soloers is because we do so much of it we figure out alot of the little tricks.

In my opinion for soloing high level docs are roughly equals of engies. I am not saying that docs are a top solo class but i don't believe engies are either. I don't think soldiers are a top soloer either like you mention. They are in the same no heal no calm trap engies are in. As someone else mentioned engie and soldier the only 2 classes which will die with a full nano poo.

[_________KrazyKanuck]

and soyuz

Blind auras are okay if you have the spare IP to blow on a dark blue otherwise useless skill. And if you are standing right beside the mobs trying to kill you and you turn your damage/reflect shields off. the blinds have as much drawback in my opinion as they do benefit. frankly the 7m range for the blinds is closer then i ever wanna get to the mobs when solo. and lets face it if any other prof had to raise another dark blue skill to use their calms/heals/roots etc they would be screaming bloody murder (yes some classes have all blue nanoskills but atleast the nanoskills they have to raise have more then 1 use)

As for the agressiveness trimmer i can tell you beyond any doubt that it works best when you spam it when you take aggro not once per zone like you mention I currently use a ql197 one and the difference between using once a zone and using whenever you get aggro is like night and day. As long as your pet is hitting the mob it will take the aggro from you within a hit or 2. however when there is a add then its not nearly as effective.

[Darksyphon7]

damnit,

TRADESKILLS
TRADESKILLS
TRADESKILLS
TRADESKILLS
TRADESKILLS



WRONG THREAD TO DISCUSS SOLOING#@! :P

[Letah]

Sorry seppu have to reply


KrazyKanuck, its an easy calculation; docs have the same colour of weaponskills and the same implant conflicts as engies, giving us the same dmg potential. *but* you have a pet, we have heals. You can tank the pet, so pure logically-wise your better in soloing (and are).


To give Seppu some cookie; tradeskills, tradeskills, tradeskills, tradeskills, tradeskills, tradeskills, tradeskills, tradeskills, tradeskills, tradeskills, tradeskills, tradeskills, tradeskills, tradeskills, tradeskills, tradeskills, tradeskills, tradeskills

[coldwarkid]

Originally posted by KrazyKanuck
Blind auras are okay if you have the spare IP to blow on a dark blue otherwise useless skill. And if you are standing right beside the mobs trying to kill you and you turn your damage/reflect shields off. frankly the 7m range for the blinds is closer then i ever wanna get to the mobs when solo.

If you're running damage and reflect shields on yourself, of course you're going to have problems with aggro. they may not do much damage, but they do serve to tick off mobs, which is why tanking professions use them.

Yes, PM is dark blue, but the blinds are incredibly effective. This isn't some NT blind that will just reduce the incidence of criticals a bit, our blinds completely shut down mobs and players alike. 7m is close, but then it's an add handler and adds have a nasty habit of getting a lot closer than you might be comfortable with.

As for the agressiveness trimmer i can tell you beyond any doubt that it works best when you spam it when you take aggro

I used to think exactly the same thing. Advice from the old hands here, plus evidence from the antiguardians db, convinced me otherwise. If you spam the trimmer whenever you get an aggro, obviously you'll be spamming it when aggro switches back again.

As far as I can tell the trimmer adds to the bot's ability to taunt with each hit, so against adds the bot isn't hitting it has no effect.

I'd love to have made this a tradeskill post, but I couldn't. Sorry.

Cheers,

~R~