If you guys simply have a problem with the nano delta, then please post it under a different topic. The fact that two full pages of this thread have been devoted to the false assumption that the tank armor was "nerfed", it will just constantly fall back into that same argument.
The balance of the current nano delta is, as always, up for discussion.
"By the way, if anyone here is in marketing or advertising: kill yourself." --Bill Hicks
"Have we turned into gerbils? People are paying money to walk up invisible steps over and over again." --Dennis Leary
Here is the email I sent to Funcom concerning this issue (slightly edited to remove late night typo's)....
Tank armor is now useless for Enforcers. We cannot use 75% of the Challenger line of nano's while using tank armor, in addition to some other combat oriented programs. Buffing is also a nice 5 minute affair. Perhaps, I shouldn't over equip so much? Fair enough, but what about my combat specific nano's? Take Challenger to Gargantua for example. I worked hard raising my nano skills to use this program, as it is very useful for various reasons. It has an NCU cost of 509. Before the patch, I was able to cast it with a full nano pool, draining ALL of my nano. That was fine, I didn't mind paying an already huge penalty in nano costs for a fairly useful nano. Now however, I cannot even execute the program because there is no way I can get a 1018 pool. Enforcers are "tanks", tank armor is made for tanks... why should we be unable to use our most basic tools together?
The use of Enforcer nano's and tank armor together was perfectly suitable and caused no gameplay problems... ever. Tank armor is now at best a 3rd rate option to Senpai Coats and Nano Cloaks. WHY ON EARTH should a Nano Technician have better "class specific" armor than an Enforcer? Why should even a Martial Artist have vastly superior armor targeted for it to a class that has nothing going for it other than its ability to take damage for a group? Tank armor accomplished its "penalties" very effectively previously, without making it impossible to use nano's of the same QL as the character's cLvL. As of the 13.0 patch, I am stuck using a QL 20 Challenger nano, and a QL 47 Damage shield, or losing 500+ AC. That is totally unacceptable for someone of my level and my nano skill.
Furthermore, think about what this does to Enforcers using weapon type other than 2HB. The Challenger line of nano's is a great way to help 1HE and 2HE Enforcers over-equip weapons. Since there is no Headcracker or Brutal Thug for non-Blunt users, 1HE and 2HE Enforcers are punished for their weapon choice. 1HE and 2HE Enforcers must now choose between using far lower QL weapons than their 1HB and 2HB counterparts, or they must remove their tank armor to equip their weapons. Why is this a problem? Because once you equip your weapons, you cannot use pillows to get tank armor back on. 1HB and 2HB Enforcers can still get a large bonus to their weapon type without worrying about the loss of higher QL Challenger nano's. "Oops"... super nerf of 1HE and 2HE Enforcers created.
Think of what this does to the in game economy now as well. Coats already cost a huge amount. Now that tank armor is incredibly inferior to Coats, the prices of tank will drop to all time lows, and Coats that much more. Only players with high level character making twinks will be able to afford coats. That's a great why to alienate new customers. Imagine how a new player to the game is going to feel when they realize they have no chance of beating someone in PvP because they were unable to fork out 1 million credits for a Coat and had to use tank armor instead. Not good.
Fix for this? Obviously the easiest one is to restore tank armor to its former state, with the nano penalty, that still allows you to execute the program if you don't have an impossibly large nano pool. I suppose you could also give 1HE and 2HE Enforcers the same Brutal Thug and Headcracker buffs that the Blunt crowd has (Why don't 1HE and 2HE buffs exsist anyway....?).
In closing, I have noticed a lot of people are unhappy about this and I think it is obviously an issue that needs to be considered in more depth. Please take the time to look at this issue with the time and thoroughness it deserves.
Thanks,
<insert name here>
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Anyway.. i received a response saying that the issue would indeed be looked at further, but that for now tank armor was "fixed". I have since removed my QL 125 Medium Tank armor and am running around in a QL 58 Coat. Pretty bum deal, especially for those of us that bought tank armor for our characters before we could use it. Guess that tank armor of QL 130-180 I have will sit in the bank until they change something.
I'm sure soldiers are suffering through the same unpleasant situation. Bummer for us...
Hehe, okay Miir...Originally posted by Miir
Perhaps you should have chosen a different breed.
Tank Armor + Atrox is a double whammy if you rely on nanos to be effective.
I'm pretty sure that as a solitus I don't think I could get 1800-2000 nano either. I'd get what, 1 more point per point of nano pool? At best I'd have maybe 1350 nano. Nanomage soldier, coming right up!!
Really, the point is, previous to the tank armor "fix", soldiers that used their-QL Mks had to just about max out nano pool (maybe fill it up to 85%) to cast Mk. At that point, it would leave them totally drained of nano. Soldiers that did not put points into nano pool/psychic typically cast *much* lower level Mks, like ql20 ones at level 80, and aren't really affected anyhow.
Incidentally, I did try swapping armor on and off to cast Mk (in the middle of combat), and it deifinitely does not work. Most of the time, the armor doesn't come off, or doesn't go on, or the shield doesn't cast, or you stand there like an idiot while a monster bashes away at you.
Xombie, Cosmik gave everyone the impression that if they wanted something done, they'd have to be vocal about it (on this thread), so they are becoming vocal about it. In-game, a GM told one of the faction leaders that the status was pending, and another ARK told two of my friends that nothing would be done because not enough people were complaining.Originally posted by Xombie
If you guys simply have a problem with the nano delta, then please post it under a different topic. The fact that two full pages of this thread have been devoted to the false assumption that the tank armor was "nerfed", it will just constantly fall back into that same argument.
The balance of the current nano delta is, as always, up for discussion.
I believe the very valid point that most people here are making is that tank armor as it currently exsists, is not a logical choice for any class/breed/hybrid in the game. No class can be effective without the use of nano programs in PvP or beyond the newbie portion of the game. For a great many (if not all) classes, the new/fixed penality of tank armor and battle suits is far too great to validate their use. I was thinking that perhaps a CPU upgrade might help, so being lucky enough to have a 5 slot belt, I installed the highest QL CPU Upgrade my comp lit would allow (-5%.. Laugh). <sarcasm> Boy-o-boy.. did that make a big difference ! </sarcasm> It just doesnt make sense. It certainly cannot be justified that because tank armor is available in stores it should have a great penalties of use. Coats and Nano cloaks are simply not that hard to obtaim. Who has 1 million credits to blow on store bought tank armor when they could spend the same on a slightly lower QL coat on the open market and not have to deal with this problem in the first place? Sorry, but there is no justification for tank armor as is. Trust me, people aren't dropping their QL 125 tank armor for QL 75 Coats because it is trendy.....
I have to disagree with FC , it is a NERF, and i will consider is suck UNTIL the upgraded cpu IS WORKING to off set the tank armor. FC said it got fixed a while back.. but did it? NOPE.
bump bump bump
i must have a serious misunderstanding of the whole POD thing. to me a 50% pod says i stand a 50/50 chance of coming out on top. i used to think this was calculated for just your natural character, and that after buffs / implants / good_armor / good_weapons we should be able to beat such a mob with not too much trouble.
that is not the way things are now. mobs have continued to get tougher each patch. if i tried to take on a mob without a few minutes of buffing and over equiping my hammer ( self buff ), i could not take on a yellow. the mobs have incredible hp and nano. fighter mobs have crazy hp and ac. caster mobs have almost crazy hp, and do crazy chain casting.
the game is getting harder, less rewarding, and less fun to play all the time.
tank armor used to really help. the nano costs make it take a lot longer to buff up before a mission, and during a mission since you need to refresh your buffs more and more as you gain levels.
it is getting such that casual players won't find it worthwhile to spend much time during the week. they can hope to have time during the weekend.
game balancing is balancing the fun out of the game.
it is not much fun to have an attrox in a dress coat or a caster coat pretending he is a tank. everybody is heavily dependent on casting nanos in this game as things stand. we are just one general class with minor specialization variations to small degrees. we choose where we want to have things be really hard for us. fighters choose to have it be really hard to cast the nanos they depend on to survive. casters choose to have it really hard to get the hp they depend on to survive.
tank armor needs to have a lesser nano cost than it does after 13.0. a meatshield fighter should have really high ac and hp. they should be able to wear down a mob and survive, hurt but alive.
a caster should be able to do rude damage and kill mobs quick, but should also find it easy to take trips to the rez booths.
don't nerf the casters now that they are tougher, un-nerf the fighters.
Are the rankings we see on the mobs based on pure lvl vs lvl or do they take into account our attack rating and armor and hp and other factors like that. If they take into account more than just lvl, that would explain why a yellow would be getting harder to beat. If they are basing it on pure lvl, then they are assuming that every one of us must be overequiping to our maximum potential because at higher levels, the yellows are really hard.
Anyone know for sure??
Take the nano penalty off Tank Armor!
O b i t u s Atrox Clan Enforcer My trade skill? Smackin' stuff till it cries! Obi's Rig
Unit Memer of S t o r m
Never Forget
I think the balance was good already without a need for this nerf or bug fix, whatever you want to call it.
My agent, soldier and enforcer who are using tank armor have maxed agility too so it is no problem me to switch to decus cloaks BUT IMHO it is stupid that everyone will look same and it hides the armor you are using etc.
Even now cloak would be better option for me but for RP reasons I have selected to use tank armor this far (and it looks better than decus) but in the future... I prolly just switch to decus if this is not changed back to way it was or something equal and yes, I can remove/equip my tank armor with my own buffs thank you BUT I simply do NOT have time to de-equip it when its time to use Mongo, Challenger or Mk shield. Those nanos are used as last ditch reserve when things start flying into fan.
Next time your NT dies because I didnt mongo... Well you know the reason why it happened. Have fun
Blah stupid ass "fix".
Zarch and bunch of other chars.
It is very simple, no one who can afford it will use a tank armor then, period, you made tanks go poof from the game in a heartbeat. *clap clap*Originally posted by Cosmik
Well, it's hardly a nerf. It was a bug fix. Tank armor is meant to increase your nano cost 100% and as I understand it, if you had 600 nano points and were casting a nano formula that required 400 nano points (800 with tank armor), the fact that you could cast that nano formula with tank armor on was unintended.
I know some tank wearing players won't like this change (and honestly I thought more would be speaking up against it here in this thread), but I'll fire some questions off to the designers and try to get you some comments on this change. And yes, I'll also let them know your concerns.
I was ok with using ql125 recharge packs after each spell with my Tank as my Nano went to 0 when the spell costed more than my nano pool due to the *2 rule, but when I can't even cast the spell without taking the armor off, then I just don't use it anymore, it was harsh already, but I didn't like the coats, so I stick to the Tank. Now nearly everyone including me wears such an ugly cloaking piece of crap.
If you don't change it back, or change the nano delta from 100% to say 20%, delete the tank armor, no one in their right mind will use them, and all will look exactly the same thanks to this ingenious and unannounced (of course, just like the pillows) nerf into uselesness.
Even if CPU upgrades were working properly.. what's the comp lit req on a -5% Upgrade? I think is something like 240. What's 5% really matter by the time you get to lvl 50 or whatever takes to get 240 comp lit? Your nano's already have a 400-500 (meaning 800-1000 with tank) nano cost. A 95% penality as it is now is nothing worth talking about either unfortunately.
-Gnada
I think i have figured it out... this nerf is a ploy to balance PvP because we all know that Enforcers were WAAAAAAAAAAY too nasty and NT's and Agent's were dying left and right due to our Tank armor. GG!
Call me crazy, but when tank armor adds 100% nano cost to your NFs, it should double the cost. To be able to cast a 400 nano cost formula with 600 nano using tank armor is a bug. It was fixed. To complain otherwise doesn't make sense.
Using Tank armor is a trade off. Tank Armor gives the most AC in the back spot It is slightly more AC then Senpai/Hanshi coats and considerably more then Nano Cloaks. As such, it can also be bought in stores. Senpai/Nano cloaks cannot.
As a trade off for using the highest AC back piece, you might have to use lower MK shields. It makes perfect sense to me. The people in Battle Suits have it worse, they have 3x the nano cost.
Reletive to Senpai/Hanshi coats, the penalty for Tank Armor is a bit too severe. The double nano cost is fine, but it lowers your evades and your run speed. But then again, this is why Senpai Primus coats are going for 25 million credits.
Last edited by Lucid Flow; Nov 20th, 2001 at 16:06:58.
Vote: Remove Crowd Limiting!!!
Lucid, you are indeed crazy.
The point is not that tank armor is "fixed" or "nerfed" or "broken"... who cares what the purpose for the change was. The plain and simple issue is that tank armor no longer functions within reasonable limits to warrant it's use any longer. I am speaking soley from an Enforcer's POV, but im certain it's like this for many soldiers as well. It is better to go without any armor on your back than to wear tank. The negatives exponentially outweigh the positives now.
Furthermore... how are Nano cloaks and senpai coats even remotely justified compared to tank armor as it exsists now? How can double the nano cost for a 45 AC difference (yes that is the difference in AC between my Coat and some old Tank I have of the same QL) be in any way "justified"? Not to even mention the negative speeds and evades. No one ever complained about penalties in speed or evades or init's. Those don't need to be removed because they are reasonable penalties for wearing "heavy" armor. Double the nano costs as of the 13.0 patch ais in no way, shape, or form "fine". If it was, 100's of players wouldnt be taking off their tank armor and going without or emptying their banks to recover some AC with a coat of cloak.
Who gives a crap if tank armor is sold in stores? QL 100 Medium tank is ~1 million credits in a store. Who is going to pay that much for something that hurts your more than it helps you? Not I, nor would any other sane individual. Go loot a coat, they aren't hard to find if you are persistent at the mission terminal. In fact, I have seen more coats in missions than tank armor as of late.
As for the economic results of the new tank armor, please take a look at your nearest Senpai coat listing in your shopping channel. The results of the tank armor change are as absurd there as they are trying to use tank itself.
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