There is a rumor that you have...

[matros]

Ok here 's my final $.02 on overequipping. Give everybody ability to overequip. That way people who want to twink are happy and people who want to RP will have no reason to gripe cause the ability to overequip is there. I overequip cause it is fun I like tinkering with implants buffs pillows and med suits to get uber weapons and armor. Once I reach the max ql for my weapons and armor I will move to the second stage of twinking and that is exploring I am very interested in building things like kits and weapons, however I am not willing to risk wasting my ip's on deep blue trade skills until I am happy with my armor and weps. So, overequipping will allow me to move to the exploring stage sooner rather then later. The whole point of the RPG game is to allow a player to choose his/hers own path in developing his/her character if this path is dictated by developers the game stops being fun.


I don't PVP anymore cause I find that roll of dice PVPing does not have an adrenaline rush element to it like say Counter strike. I play for:
1) bragging rights "uh look at my ql 134 beam I am uber" or "uh look at my hammer that I built mysel, I am uber"
2) for story line whenever there is one like story line missions new mobs exploring the planet etc.
3) for socializing with other ppls
4) experimenting i.e. trade skill items atrox mp's etc.

Right now the disparity that we are having between classes is not because of OE but rather because some professions are broken and other are fixed. So you fix NT and MA's and there will be no need to remove OE.

[Detonate]

Obviously you people have no idea what was proposed.

You can still over equip all you want. But your damage will be reduced based on how much of the skill you actually have to use the weapon.

This has nothing to do with armor, etc....

So if you want to have your QL200 beam on at level 100, fine.... But instead of doing 2,000 points of damage it may only do 1700 (2000-15%)

[____________Ejeckted]

now this is curious..

i just went back to the original article,
and it's been changed.

most noticable the specific "25%" based penalty graph is gone . .
but the whole thing has had a revision.

EDIT:

opps. seems there are now 2 versions?

original =
http://www.anarchyonline.com/content...articles/1500L

new =
http://www.anarchyonline.com/content...articles/1220L

[______________Babadi]

I commend you Matros, with that post you just went from my moron list to intelligent poster list.

This solution would be fine in many ways. FC would have to take it one step further though. They would have to extend the quality of weapons, implants, armor, nano's, and other items past 200 to maybe 300ish. Basicaly adding higher level content, mobs, missions and all. With your proposed solution we would all be maxing our equipment by lvl 150 at the latest. Where does this leave us for the next 50 levels? I too enjoy trying to make my toon as powerful as possible, this is the main draw of the game. I for one am not looking forward to having the highest level armor and nano's by level 150.

This is currently possible for most proffesions and is a problem in my eyes as it is. I for one don't want to simply create an army of twinks to keep myself amused.

I believe that one of the reasons for FC's solution, is to slow down leveling and keep people from attaining the highest gear at early levels. It also looks like that's the direction it's going to go.

Kudos Matros, all i've ever argued is that there is a problem, and it needs a solution. To many enforcers and agents seem to think everything is just peachy as it is.

[TemplarRed]

Although I'm strongly opposed to the proposed changes, I agree that not all professions are able to overequip to the same degree (referring to weapons only, here... any prof. can overequip armor & implants). But isn't this by design? A Trader or an Agent with FP:Trader can easily self-equip a weapon well beyond the proposed 25% margin, by laddering buff after buff (a process that's impossible to accomplish in actual combat, because mobs resist ransacks).

I've said it before: An OE nerf (as the one we amost had back in 12.6) would change the game for all weapon-users. But a 'milder' OE nerf (such as the 25% reduced-effectiveness idea proposed by Mr. Godager) would hit low- & mid-level Agents & Traders hard, & leave everyone else pretty much unscathed.

OE is the advantage to playing an Agent or Trader. The other 'scrapper' professions (Enforcers, MA's, Soldiers, Adventurers, & Fixers) are much tougher, with their greater health, damage shields, and/or evade buffs. Without OE, an Agent is little more than a second-rate Soldier who walks around crouching, & a Trader is a second-rate Soldier who has some nice debuffs that do nothing in PvM (ok, I'll admit... I'm not giving these two prof.'s enough credit here, but my points stands: these guys generally can't take a beating; they rely on a strong weapon offense to survive).

Some professions are stronger healers than others, some are better at tanking, & some are more capable at overequipping weapons.

Now... if something is out of balance here, is this proposed nerf the *only* possible solution? Matros has the right idea.. why can't FC just give some love to the MA's & NT's if they need it? Then we could have level 100 MA's/NT's who'd be about as strong as a level 100 Agent/Trader using a ql 200 rifle/shotgun (provided the MA/NT has armor/implants up to par). That way, all the mathemeticians out there can keep having their fun making their characters as efficient as humanly possible.

As a rebuttal to the arguement that debuffs shut down casters, & aren't harsh enough on weapon-users: Every profession is a 'caster-profession'. There isn't a single profession that doen't rely on in-combat nano-formulas for survival... debuffs shut down Enforcer rage, Soldier MK shield, & Adventurer heals, just to name a few. I'll admit that debuffs are more effective against a weaponless NT... but the same could be said about roots vs. MA's or melee Adventurers.

And weapon-users do not stop improving when they finally equip that ql 200 weapon... there is still much growing to do. They only stop improving when they hit their skill cap.

-Templar Red

[Filik]

Originally posted by DrGonzo
consider my acct cancelled the second the overequipping nerf happens

It's not like you can't still overequip...

Anyway, Funcom has two choices: Improve the class that can't overequip insanely, or just improve it moderatly while putting some moderate limits on overequipping. It seems pretty logical that theye go for the second choice.

-Filik.

[____________Ejeckted]

Originally posted by rorthron


It's not like you can't still overequip...

Anyway, Funcom has two choices: Improve the class that can't overequip insanely, or just improve it moderatly while putting some moderate limits on overequipping. It seems pretty logical that theye go for the second choice.

-Filik.

The problem with the anti-overequiping 'solutions' that
the anti-overequiping players suggest is that they just
dont seem to understand what it is players find FUN
about 'overequiping'.

If I can, with one single self-buff or just one wrangle
overequip to the 'cap' then there is absoultly no
motivation to do any math at all .. no reason to
have to call on 2 or 3 friends with different buffs ..
no reason to have to make multiple implants..
no reason for all these items with modifiers to exist..

you get one wrangle and ..BAM.. you're done.

that is lazy gameplay that completely dumbs down AO
for the players who love using every available option
to optimize themselves .. AO gets a whole lot simpler/stupider.

The original soltuion in the first article (with the graph)
would actually punish palyers who were 'too-good'
at overequiping by making a massively overequiped weapon
degrade in performance enough to make it sub-par to a
weapon you can just take on and off with no strategy at all.

That's a problem that will cost FC every player who enjoys
the number-crunching style of gameplay that is so great in AO.

caps = character strength based only on level = boring


the ATK rating solution is still the only solution I've heard
which would be acceptable to players like me who feel
missions and mutant-bashing is repetative and is not
be the main gameplay element of AO.

make ATK rating matter more than anything.
make ATK rating 80% of the damage calculation.
make QL of the weapon only contribute a small part of the equation.

the calculation now could easily be tweaked,
and while it may mean the HP of players/mobs also
needs to be adjusted, FC have aknowledged that
would be necessary with any soultion.

ATK rating is ONLY based on a players base skills
+ implants he is currently wearing + active buffs he
has running in his NCU right now.

This way, all methods of optimization are still worthwhile,
but a level80 player with a level200 gun is only going to
do slightly more damage than a level80 player with a QL80 gun ..
.. but it still scales according to optimization!

so a level80 player with current skills for a QL100 gun
equiped with a QL140 gun is going to do slightly more
damage than with the QL100, but a QL200 would still
be even better if he can figure out how to get it on.

I dont care about how 'uber' this makes them..
nothing should make anyone 'uber'. . that's the definition imbalance.

Im quite happy if that level80 player with a QL100 gun
does an average '200' damage per normal hit,
while the same level80 with a QL140 gun would do
an average '210' damage per hit, and then maybe with
a QL200 he can do '218' per hit ..

that's fine. that's great. he can still get himself
the most optimized he can figure out how to be,
but it doesnt imablance the game, and yet there
is still some slight reward for all the effort ..

that's all us number-crunchers want.
some small reward (and definately not a punishment)
for our time and effort.

we learned the rules, we learned every other professions buffs,
we found the players to cast them, we spent all the money on
many different implant sets just for equiping, we went out and
got that special item with the (eg)+10 melee energy modifier..

if you think overequiping is nothing but "wrangle buff me PLZ!!"
you're wrong.

-name a non-general buff that adds to flingshot?
-name a non-general buff that adds to sneakattack?
-name a non-general/non-doctor buff that adds treatment?
-how many different items can you wear at the same time
that add to piercing skill?
-name any buff that can raise shotgun skill besides trader
and general nanos.
-name 3 ways to increase brawl skill without general buffs or implants.
-name at least 3 weapons that can help you equip better armor?

if you cant answer all of these,
you dont know the rules well enough to be calling for any nerfs.

'overequiping' is just smart committed gameplay and should
have a payoff . . . not in 'uberness', but in optimization.

[matros]

Babadi wow we actually agreed with you . Lets not fight anymore. . Now you were saying : "Basicaly adding higher level content, mobs, missions and all. With your proposed solution we would all be maxing our equipment by lvl 150 at the latest. Where does this leave us for the next 50 levels? "

Well, if you are a weapon wielding class you would work for the next fifty levels on still maxing out your str stamina and init skills to take full advantage of that ql 200 weapon From what I've seen QL 130 weapon is a lot better in a hands of 160 player than in a hands of level 66 player simply because Lvl 160 player can hit more often and crit more often. I would imagine same would go for nano casting professions since higher level will have more nano pool and more nano init skills. Also it'll give you the opportunity to balance your char a little better and put some ip's in the skills that are not needed, such as trade skills that I am drooling about. . And, you'll be able to do all that without starting and leveling a twink. Now, basic assumption here is that all the professions are fixed and balanced. Although I would definetely welcome an idea of extending levels through say 250 gives me more twinking to do .

Now, correct me if I am wrong but the problem with nt's and overequipping is that they cannot overequip their nanos in the same way that say mp's can. From where I am sitting NT's are in the same boat as engineers in that respect because you guys only have access to implants and general buffs to overequip yourself, again I might be wrong. The difference is, that engineers bot will do more damage that NT's nano and it'll also keep mob aggroed on the bot vs. the owner. To me the easiest way to fix NT's is to increase damage that their nano's do and maybe introduce some sort of disaggro line of nanos similar to what enforcers have.

[____________Ejeckted]

another benefit to making ATK rating more influential in
determining damage than the QL of the weapon, is that
some of the less-popular/less-uber weapons would actually
become more viable.. because you'd be gimping yourself less.

[Maximilian]

Good post, Scumbug.

Can't be stated to often:
One of the major problems with overequipping is that the ql of the weapon/item influences the (damage) output far to much. In AO it doesn't matter if your skill is right, the equipment is the determining factor.
Does it really matter, if you are hit by a rusty old front loader or a M16?

But, I assume, balancing this apsect is not possible in this game.

So long,

Max(imilian)

[matros]

scumbug but ATK rating is already depended on your primary weapon skill or am I wrong? Sides I think that if Funcom leaves overequipping alone and concentrates on balancing the rest of the professions we'll be fine. Mobs that I see now are already tough enough and they are more in numbers, (I am talking missions). The days of soloing through a full red mission are gone. The most we can do now is probably a 65--75% missions and that involves a lot of work even for the engies and mp's. Mobs actually cast root nanos and unmake nanos and hit you harder, so as far as I can see mobs are balanced.

Now if FC fixes other professions, puts more story in game and let's us enjoy the game at our own pace I'll be happy.

[____________Ejeckted]

here is the current formula:
(thanks senatorjesse)

(1 + (ATK / 400)) * (Damage + Crit if any)
= damage total +added damage modifiers [like rings]
-minus armor = damage dealt.


so lets use a common weapon in an example:

----------------------------
QL 200 Premium Stigma Rifle

Equip time 2 s
Attack time 1 s
Recharge time 2.5 s
Range 34 m
Clip 125
Damage 12-326 (101)
Defense skills
dodge ranged 100%

Attack skills
rifle 100%

Requirements rifle 859
aimed shot 430
----------------------------


now, for a high level Agent with 1200 rifle skill
hitting for max damage with no crit or +damage-mods
vs a player with QL200 armor will get:

(1 + (1200 / 400 = 3)) * (326 + 0)
= 1304 -(3500AC=-350) = 954 damage dealt.


for a lower level Agent with rifle skill of only 600
overequiped with this QL200 stigma hitting for max,
no crit, hitting against QL200 armor:

(1 + (600 / 400 = 1.5)) * (326 + 0)
= 815 -(3500AC=-350) = 465 damage dealt.

but to be fair, that agent is more likely to be
shooting players with QL100ish armor.

(1 + (600 / 400 = 1.5)) * (326 + 0)
= 815 -(2000AC=-200) = 615 damage dealt.


now let's look at a gun that fits this agents skills:
(not 'overequiped' at all)

----------------------------
QL141 Fine-Tuned Stigma Rifle

Equip time 2 s
Attack time 1 s
Recharge time 2.5 s
Range 34 m
Clip 125
Damage 9-235 (74)
Defense skills dodge ranged 100

Attack skills rifle 100

Requirements rifle 606
aimed shot 304
----------------------------


do the math again with these numbers:
(max damage, no crit, vs QL100ish armor)

(1 + (600 / 400 = 1.5)) * (235 + 0)
= 588 -(2000AC=-200) = 388 damage dealt.


So with the current formula,
the 600skill agent does
615 max normal damage with a QL200 gun
388 max damage with a QL141 gun

now we've got the new PvP rules too,
so we have to cut those in half.

308 hits with QL200
194 hits with QL141


I hope these examples show exactly how much
skill and ATK rating do matter in AO already.
The math is all right there so please review it.
Is overequiping drastically imbalancing enough
to require a nerf? .. well.. that's debatable.
I am going through the trouble of doing all this
math and posting this long message to encourage
Funcom to consider adjusting their damage formula
before they start throwing in arbitrary caps.

[______________Krneki]

Now my opinion to the whole matter!

Now I don't think that Funcom cares what dmg will agents, NTs, crats, fixers be doing after the changes much and who's gonna be the most uber dmg dealer, they will just try to make sure that everybody will deal pretty much the same dmg (combat should last the same time). What they care about is that by the lvl 120, some professions get to the point where they have the ability to wear pretty much the best items. lvl 120 Soldiers, Enforcers, Agents wielding QL 200 weapons, Engineers having lvl 200 Slayerdroids...and a lil further on, everyone has QL 200 armor by the lvl 150. There's aboslutely no point in lvling unless you want to be the highest on the ladder.

With the proposed changes (dropping HP/AC, other abilities of MOBs AND do the overequiping "nerf") high end game will be easier since most of higher lvls don't overequip much and mobs will be weaker. As for the low end lvls, well they get the restrictions placed on them so they can still actually advance in the game and mobs will be weaker also, so the change should not afect them much.