Keeper HM line + dimach

[McKnuckleSamwich]

First off, the changes in the perk lines in GENERAL look very good. Quite well thought out, and some nice changes to dmg (soldiers particularly), also to dmg for keeper alien line. I like that.

But, here are a couple of points I'd like to bring up HM line, and dimach. Lets talk briefly about HM line first.


First off, the addition of a AAD self buff is absolutely awesome. It's overdue, and it's too short, but it's definitly the right idea.

Background:
Currently HM line is 10 perks. [20, 40, 70, 90, 110, 130, 150, 180, 200, 202]
With actions at 20, 90, 130 (listed, but action says from 150 onwards)
*Reaper requires 4 perks for transfix*
*Blessing requires 6 perks for CT*

Confliction:
At Tl5 there are not enough perks to max blessing at 170 (7), max HM at 150 (7), and get transfix (4). (total perks =18, max available=17)

Proposition
Condense the HM line by 4 perks

HM modifier breakdown
Maintain the same total modifiers, and the same perk actions, but condense the perk line as follows:

HM: 200 evade-Cls, 100 dodge range, 100 duck exp
Perks open at: 50, 90, 130, 150, 170, 202

****I have noted that the other mark perk (reducing the AAD of opponent) is exchanged for mark of pious. I think this is a good exchange, but I have a suggestion. ****

Actions

Action Mark of Pious: Opens on perk 1, Player level 50. Recharge: 120s (not 180s)
lvl 50: on self modify 40 AAD duration 15s
lvl 90: on self modify 100 AAD duration 17s
lvl 130: on self modify 150 AAD duration 19s
lvl 150: on self modify 180 AAD duration 23s
lvl 170: on self modify 210 AAD duration 26s
lvl 202: on self modifty 250 AAD duration 30s

Action Mark of Vengeance: Opens on Perk 3, Player level 130. recharge: 65s (32s miss), CHECKS: 75% evade-cls
lvl 130: on target modify -120 AAD duration 20s
lvl 150: on target modify -160 AAD duration 22s
lvl 170: on target modify -200 AAD duration 25s
lvl 202: on target modify -250 AAD duration 30s

Action Mark of Sufferance: Opens on Perk 4, Player level 150. recharge: 360s
lvl 150: on self: Health 200 .. 200, 20 hits, 5s delay duration = 100s
lvl 170: on self: Health 250 .. 250, 20 hits, 5s delay
lvl 202: on self: Health 350 .. 350, 20 hits, 5s delay

same stuff with blind/dots, etc.

Action Mark of the Unhallowed: Opens on Perk 6, player level 202. recharge: 240s
lvl 202: on target: -220 AAO, -220 AAD duration 50s


The changes listed are there for several reasons:
1. Keepers are very short on perks throughout TL4 and TL5
2. Keepers can USE the AAD buff way earlier than they can Utilize the mark of vengeance buffs. Therefore, it should in introduced earlier and put to use. The lower level (old) MoV debuffs are not well proportioned (-10 evade close? seriously..) that is useless.
3. at TL5 keepers NEED this perkline to be maxed at the level I have shown, in order to be REMOTELY competitive (thats highlight for a reason).
4. The changes in duration of the perks are also there because they provide a true evade prof room to breathe on perk recharges between DOF/limber, but also provide the keeper with an excellent window of opportunity during limber.
5. The duration of the AAD self buff should improve with more perks in the line to allow for gradual overlap upon maturing of various defences.
6. The change from evade close to AAD on the mark of vengeance debuff is because this is more in line with the roll of the keeper, who can essentially undress the opponent and leave him/her not oly open to melee attacsk, but other attacks as well.






Dimach

Keepers SHOULD NOT NEED dimach as a healing option.

[fireduckjzz]

Keepers need more than just new perk adjustments.



Keepers are 2h masters? Well that's what it says in the start up description.

Uhh what? The three best 2h weapons (Pride,Edge, and Ofab) can be used by other professions, so we may have a higher 2h but can't really be a "master" at something if other profs can use it as well.

Remove enfo tag on Edge and up damages pl0x

Or just make a whole new weapon line entirely

Keepers had a nice line of weapons like Great Sword of Achilles/Hercules/ Perseus which look awesome as hell and have awesome modifiers.

Would be neat to bring these swords back from the dead, keeper only, better mods, damage.


Every profession has its thing that it's the best at, doc healing, enfo tanking, nt nukes ect ect and all the professions have something to represent that whether it be mongo's heals nukes evades ect. and keepers have nothing. IMO FC should make a keeper only 2h weapon. Can't really be 2h masters if other people are running around being able to use the same weapons we can.


That was my idea posted somewhere else.


Everywhere i go i get many comments like

"Who plays keepers anymore?"
or
"Haha your a keeper? I'm sorry"

stuff like that. We need more things changed than perks, iirc keepers haven't been touched since the release of AI.

[Noky69]

i aggre with both points. i really think the dimach timer should be changed. I simply cannot see how 5mins would be Overpowered at 220 with a skill needed around 1750.

the heal is very neat. but as it stands. i always forget to use it because of that 1 hour timer. along with it only being 8.7k(ish). i run soloing with 22-25k hp . depending on what gear setup i feel like using that day lol
so really. 8k? not even nearly enough for that 1hour cooldown.


what i would really love is some weapon diversity. there is a post in the keeper fourms about that.
a few really good things were brought up. One of my favorites was revamping melee energy weapon line for keepers. and allowing setups like. dual wielding. ME/Shield combo. i have no problem with the concept of sci fi paladin! =P
ME/pistol would be awesome but probably not do able. or ranged energy . whatever is easiest i guess lol

the 1 hand weapon / shield combo is probably my favorite.

[Mastablasta]

Keepers need more than just new perk adjustments.



Keepers are 2h masters? Well that's what it says in the start up description.

Uhh what? The three best 2h weapons (Pride,Edge, and Ofab) can be used by other professions, so we may have a higher 2h but can't really be a "master" at something if other profs can use it as well.

Remove enfo tag on Edge and up damages pl0x

Or just make a whole new weapon line entirely

Keepers had a nice line of weapons like Great Sword of Achilles/Hercules/ Perseus which look awesome as hell and have awesome modifiers.

Would be neat to bring these swords back from the dead, keeper only, better mods, damage.


Every profession has its thing that it's the best at, doc healing, enfo tanking, nt nukes ect ect and all the professions have something to represent that whether it be mongo's heals nukes evades ect. and keepers have nothing. IMO FC should make a keeper only 2h weapon. Can't really be 2h masters if other people are running around being able to use the same weapons we can.


That was my idea posted somewhere else.


Everywhere i go i get many comments like

"Who plays keepers anymore?"
or
"Haha your a keeper? I'm sorry"

stuff like that. We need more things changed than perks, iirc keepers haven't been touched since the release of AI.

How can't you be Master of something if others can use it as well? That makes no sense. AO has always been about having as much as possible open to everyone and being better meant having higher skill rating and more support for something. It's not about having unique weapons.

[Worldofalts]

How can't you be Master of something if others can use it as well? That makes no sense. AO has always been about having as much as possible open to everyone and being better meant having higher skill rating and more support for something. It's not about having unique weapons.

agreed, although some proffesions have had this luxury with certain weapons that really pwn and no one else can use. i shouldn't have to make a list, although it would cover ranged weapons more than melee, me thinks.

[fireduckjzz]

How can't you be Master of something if others can use it as well? That makes no sense. AO has always been about having as much as possible open to everyone and being better meant having higher skill rating and more support for something. It's not about having unique weapons.

Sorry, edit: How can you be a master of something if others can use it as well.

Okay sure open as possible, but everyone has something special to go along with their profession, fixers evades ga4 sws, docs with their heals, shades with their DD being #1 though it seems there being nerfed in this upcoming patch, enfs with taunts+absorbs etc etc.

Keepers have ****ty healing auras, 1k health every 20s...ub0r lol. Deflect+Absorb aura rarely ever used, nano aura wtf. Yeah we have damage auras but solds have damage buffs, AMS, full auto, we have nothing special for just keepers though every profession seems to. At this point keeper<solja, along with most other professions. Keepers have no fantastic use.


AO is about having as much open for everyone as possible? Keepers are limited to one weapon skills, don't have that amazing nanos, and in pvp if our perks don't land were screwed being keepers are perk depended

No heals, no snares, no roots, no pets, no dot's, no hot's, no aoe, etc. etc.

A lot of professions share these ability's but keepers have none. We have auras, and the only one that's worth using is Imminence line (imo), yes others have their uses but eh.


So far the only use for keepers is 12man sadly, someday i would like to see someone go

"Hold on I'm looking for a keeper on LFT"

[Gwenhwyfer]

About dimach:

Keeper dimach has always been a heal and I say it should remain as such. What it really needs is a serious lowering of recharge time (to what MAs have for instance). I've never considered keepers as an alphaing profession but rather a hard-to-kill tough as nails - kind of thing. Make dimach reflect that quality.

[Xenotric]

agreed, although some proffesions have had this luxury with certain weapons that really pwn and no one else can use. i shouldn't have to make a list, although it would cover ranged weapons more than melee, me thinks.

Thats to keep them out of the sticky hands of the soldier! You can't leave anything lieing around without them grabbing it and trying it out I swear ¬_¬

just because you dont have buffs and support for a weapon doesn't mean you can't use it, just means you can't use it well, but I do think sword/shield would work well with keepers (as long as something was done to make it sword shield and not just dual weilding swords ala advy)

As for dimach, I have never ever in the 8 years of playing this game seen why it has such a long lock out time.

Its never done such WOW damage that I've felt "Omg that needs to be only used once per gaming session or else I'll massacare everything!"

For those that use it as a special damage attack it should be more along the lines of a normal special attack (ranging from say 3 minutes down to say 30-40 seconds?) and the keepers heal one to be either say 10 minutes, or have the heal nerfed and set to about 1-2 minutes.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

bump for reading first post.

HM line needs changes. AAD buff is good, condence line and rearrange perk opening levels please.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

bump.

The perk line needs to switch the level where the AAD on self action is opened, and mark of vengeance.

Also make mark of vengeance do -AAD on target.

Condense the line please as well.

Keepers at TL5 have -3 perks to play with. Would be nice to have a couple more to at least max out 2 lines.

[Heresiarch]

McNugget I agree partially with you, OK maybe you need an additional perk on your noob keeper, thats fine. But your suggestion is way too drastic and changes the perk-line to an unrecognizable state - just because of a lousy boring tier level, come move on and level up.

So no - the changes suggested in this thread are too drastic IMO - I do not vouch for this.

~edit~

bump on dimach timer lowered!1

[Hacre]

About dimach:

Keeper dimach has always been a heal and I say it should remain as such. What it really needs is a serious lowering of recharge time (to what MAs have for instance). I've never considered keepers as an alphaing profession but rather a hard-to-kill tough as nails - kind of thing. Make dimach reflect that quality.

Absolutely agree. Keeper Dimach should at least have a recharge of 30 minutes to fall in line with everyone else's, if not more like the MA one.

The amount it heals for is fine.

My main concern with Keeper changes, is what about weapons for the Keeper? With Parry/Riposte becoming useful again, it's likely that Keepers will need a decent non Brawl sword as brawl is dark blue, one hell of an IP sink and having Dimach/Brawl/Parry/Riposte maxed isn't something a Keeper is going to have IP for, considering things like IP cost in Run Speed, Nano Resist, Treatment etc etc.

[Heresiarch]

FIX: Give us green brawl xD

[Dysfunction]

Absolutely agree. Keeper Dimach should at least have a recharge of 30 minutes to fall in line with everyone else's, if not more like the MA one.

The amount it heals for is fine.

My main concern with Keeper changes, is what about weapons for the Keeper? With Parry/Riposte becoming useful again, it's likely that Keepers will need a decent non Brawl sword as brawl is dark blue, one hell of an IP sink and having Dimach/Brawl/Parry/Riposte maxed isn't something a Keeper is going to have IP for, considering things like IP cost in Run Speed, Nano Resist, Treatment etc etc.

I have everything worth IP'n and can self all nanos, have full alpha symbs etc etc. Basically everything aside from AS and I have 2.1mil IP to use. If you use your IP effectively and use it sparingly you'll have a ton left over. I have enough right now to max out 3 lines and still have 800k left over I believe

[Manaas]

I have everything worth IP'n and can self all nanos, have full alpha symbs etc etc. Basically everything aside from AS and I have 2.1mil IP to use. If you use your IP effectively and use it sparingly you'll have a ton left over. I have enough right now to max out 3 lines and still have 800k left over I believe

trox has the least ip expenditure for keepers. Not the same for soli/opi.

[Hacre]

I have everything worth IP'n and can self all nanos, have full alpha symbs etc etc. Basically everything aside from AS and I have 2.1mil IP to use. If you use your IP effectively and use it sparingly you'll have a ton left over. I have enough right now to max out 3 lines and still have 800k left over I believe

trox has the least ip expenditure for keepers. Not the same for soli/opi.

What Romaas said. Soli spends a crapton more IP just on base abilities.

Off the top of my head, Hacre has all base abils maxed, treatment maxed, all evades and NR maxed, the nanoskills needed to cast nanos maxed (so all except MM/MC), runspeed maxed, dimach maxed, brawl maxed, fast attack maxed I -think-, 2he maxed obviously, body dev maxed and the rest of my IP got sucked up in first aid to be able to use the alb anti root/snare/blind stims, which I still had to use a custom left hand with first aid in for.

If I'm missing an obvious line Keepers should max then go ahead and assume I have it maxed.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

At 170 I have brawl, dim and SO maxed, all base stats maxed, but with reseting SO and base stats I'll have no problem maxing riposte+parry

As for the guy saying level my keeper: soz mate,he's been one of 2 twinked keepers on RK2 for pvp since 2007, so, he's not going anywhere. Baalshem isn't that active though, (I don't consider exploit toons to be twinked)

All my fight is for TL5. I don't know anything about TL7, and I don't pretend to.

But I know TL5 inside out. I know which profs I can beat 1-1, which ones I can beat in a duel, what specials kill me and what profs I don't stand a chance against.

[Hacre]

At 170 I have brawl, dim and SO maxed, all base stats maxed, but with reseting SO and base stats I'll have no problem maxing riposte+parry

As for the guy saying level my keeper: soz mate,he's been one of 2 twinked keepers on RK2 for pvp since 2007, so, he's not going anywhere. Baalshem isn't that active though, (I don't consider exploit toons to be twinked)

All my fight is for TL5. I don't know anything about TL7, and I don't pretend to.

But I know TL5 inside out. I know which profs I can beat 1-1, which ones I can beat in a duel, what specials kill me and what profs I don't stand a chance against.

And? Grats? You know the limits of a profession that when all is said and done, is very limited at TL5 because your strengths come from perks, perks which you just do not have at TL5?

What you do and don't have maxed has absolutely no bearing on what Keepers have IP for at TL7.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

And? Grats? You know the limits of a profession that when all is said and done, is very limited at TL5 because your strengths come from perks, perks which you just do not have at TL5?

What you do and don't have maxed has absolutely no bearing on what Keepers have IP for at TL7.

??? agree.

Those are two totally different arguments.

And yes, bolded is my problem EXACTLY. The strength of keepers at TL7 is in perks, which at TL5 we don't have. The percievable balance of keepers at TL7 is completely lost at Tl5.

Which is why I've been so vocal. TL5 keepers are badly nerfed. I'm just trying to restore some of their capacity. I'm eagerly awaiting parry fix, but, honestly, I don't think it will be enough. Thats why I'm really pushing for the HM line overhaul.

Many keepers agree that the perk lines need an overhaul, I'm expressing hwo I think it needs to be done.

About IP at 220? I have no idea. I have no 220 keeper. I have a 170 keeper.