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Thread: Attention Devs - Low Lvl AI City Raid Issue

  1. #1

    Attention Devs - Low Lvl AI City Raid Issue

    Alright, I've been doing high level city raids for years. I decided recently that to help low level members in my org I'd roll a 60MA and lead lowbie city raids for some fun.

    Here is the team we TRIED it with.

    60MA (I have four 220 toons and I have played a lowbie MA before)
    58Doc (who has two 220 toons, one 220 is a doc, he is a casual player)
    60Crat (has a 220 toon, casual player)
    59Keeper (has a 150 toon and other alts, serious player)

    So we got a main healer, a support healing, decent Damage Dealing all around and a calmer. NONE are twinked, two are casual players.

    We managed the first wave, then the second wave came and as we were finishing the last 2 aliens the next wave came, then as we were trying to finish that wave the next came. It appeared to be non stop action, and I realized why it seemed that way.

    We were all getting seriously nano drained. Without nano, healers... can't heal, MA specials which require nano, can't be used so it took longer to kill aliens which in the end meant having to deal with wave after wave and there was more aliens that we could handle. We tried a few times but after a while my orgmates got frustrated and did not want to go back.

    What was meant to be a fun time, became a frustrating experience. Now when you hear your orgmates on teamspeak tell you how they feel... it gets you to think harder. Should this be happening?

    As one of the oldest vets in the game, I'd say the answer is no, it shouldn't.

    City Raids are one of the things an org does together, and that should include casual players who are not twinked.

    I have a plan to twink my lvl 60 MA however I can't ask or expect casual players in my org to go that extra step to enjoy a part of the game that other players at higher levels take part in.

    All the years of running lvl 220 city raids, and I had no idea this aspect of the AI expansion was unbalanced.

    I'm unsure if the amount of nano draining was a bug, or if it was "as intended" for low levels to face a challenge. Let me tell you I can solo a City Raid on any of my 220 characters, and I think most vets looking for Leadbots do this just as easily. So how is it that a group of 4 players which are familiar with high level city raids got slaughtered on their lowbies?

    Now imagine how NEW players who decide they like the game enough to pay a monthly subscription would feel if they went through the same experience?

    We four have been around a while, and because we have higher level toons we can just switch and do other stuff. However that doesn't take away from the fact that we now are less likely to be able to enjoy city raids with orgmates who are low level.

    Oh and as a sidenote, we had been doing Lost Eden missions in APF this week with the same characters listed above and that was fun, yet the same (well at least visually) aliens demolished us at our own city.

    This may not be a priority fix, but I feel this needs to be rebalanced since it's something that I think affects low level (daily missions, boss loot drops, axp, etc), regular and casual players alike.

    I would appreciate any feedback from the Community regarding this as well. Is this something that happens often?

    Sincerely

    Windguaerd
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  2. #2
    4 people in the org all lv 60 and none twinked is the problem. that's hacker + 4 aliens. if crat doesn't use his cc tools properly you'll probably fail. lowbies have nano problems. i'm certain any of those 4 would have 0 problems soloing a city raid at 60. next time kick one or two of the members present from the org and try again. you'll have less aliens to deal with, this increasing your chances of success (you can reinvite to org after the raid). without aoe taunts to keep aggro off doc/me (to give you time to use sitdown kits) you'll have trouble killing everything in time. another option is to kill off one or two aliens BEFORE the hacker. each wave comes two minutes after the hacker dies. so if you don't have enough dd killing the hacker first will mean the next wave comes before you're ready for it (i used to 2man city raids on doc/fixer and i had trouble with dd on 260 hackers if my fixer wasn't contributing)

    hope this helps ^_^

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by CuisinartBlade View Post
    4 people in the org all lv 60 and none twinked is the problem
    That right there is an issue. Twinking is not something that should be required to do a city raid. None of us had crappy gear on, we had all our nanos for our level (except keeper heal aura), decent armor and weapons.

    Twinking should be an option, not a requirement for a raid. One thing is a challenge, another an impossible fight.

    Yeah, your strategy may work, however new players who are learning the game, would get slaughtered and most likely assume they have no shot at winning.

    I feel FC has catered to the high level players who are likely their larger amount of paying customers and leaving any low level content/experience as a low priority.

    More feedback is welcomed, and a word from a Dev that worked/works on AI content would be welcomed as well.
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  4. #4
    Hmmm... I read the OP. And, I have an opinion on this.

    Before I twinked out my first MA, I was aware that the "method" to do this was to buy a lot of cru, and raid until your fingers hurt.

    Back in 2006 I wasn't that expereinced, and, it took me a while to figure out how to raid well. In fact, I wasn't able to solo a raid for some time.

    That meant there were a few failures. I didn't let it stop me. I learned that I needed NR1, and disharmony made it easier. I also learned that using my init debuff perks immediately after UWOS ran out could mean that I wouldn't get nuked once on an wave.

    My point is, I think cuisinart makes a very valid point. Sometimes, you need to shift your strategy a bit in order for success. Yes, alphaing a 260 hacker is important at 220, BUT, a level 65 hacker is not going to nuke nearly as hard comparatively than a high level one, so, it may be that you need to kill ankari's first (ankari's nuke nano) to relieve pressure on your lowby doc.

    Regardless of twinking or not, it's fairly clear at most level ranges that when you have a doc in your raid that you do need to supplement your force with more DD. Whether or not this is an intended drawback of having a doc or not is beyond the scope of the OP, BUT, what it could mean is that you may be able to play at higher AGG to draw more mob agg, and also do more damage.

    Seems to me that if the method you tried didn't work with the team that attempted it, it may require re-thinking strategy foremost.

    If a newby or two do a raid together, what are the chances that they'll "know" to kill the hacker first? maybe they don't/won't, and have more success. Hows that for ironic?

  5. #5
    You seem to have missed the real issue here (which was brought up a few times already). It's not the low level characters attempting the raid not being heavy twinks, which shouldn't be mandatory to be able enjoy any content offered by the game at any level, as opposed to what many players think/expect.

    The problem is the non-(properly)scaling nanodrain which at low levels effectively shuts down nano use completely for the whole team, while at high level isn't noticeable at all. Imagine doing a TL7 city raid where every member of the team is under constant NSD the entire time: no crowd control, no reflects, no refreshing short term buffs, no nukes, no healing, no nothing.
    I'm curious how would you fare on a TL7 raid under those circmstances.
    Last edited by Honorbound; Apr 29th, 2011 at 08:55:16.

    "All things point to that they didn't play to win, but for the game itself and to play well. ... Later in their evolution, they forgot all about playing and having fun. When their corrupted minds only cared for what new ways they could gain power, there was no room for the simple things in life."
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Honorbound View Post
    You seem to have missed the real issue here (which was brought up a few times already). It's not the low level characters attempting the raid not being heavy twinks, which shouldn't be mandatory to be able enjoy any content offered by the game at any level, as opposed to what many players think/expect.

    The problem is the non-(properly)scaling nanodrain which at low levels effectively shuts down nano use completely for the whole team, while at high level isn't noticeable at all. Imagine doing a TL7 city raid where every member of the team is under constant NSD the entire time: no crowd control, no reflects, no refreshing short term buffs, no nukes, no healing, no nothing.
    I'm curious how would you fare on a TL7 raid under those circmstances.
    Exactly!

    Also Honor, love the quotes in your sig.

    Let's keep this discussion going. I wonder if this problem is also happening in lvl 100 city raids.
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  7. #7
    I've never noticed a problem with lowbie AI raids (although all my toons have been twinked). I used to solo level 60 raids on my old level 25 enforcer, and afk solo them on my 76 MP :/
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  8. #8
    Seems the issue is damage as ppl have pointed out.
    Im sure you already know that the next wave comes exactly 2 minutes after the hacker'uri dies, so if you lack damage to wipe out the other aliens before the next wave comes, then just take out some of the adds before killing the hacker'uri. Ofc if doing this might be best to fill CC up 100% to avoid missing out on the general.

    Var
    Varsbot
    Variable004

  9. #9
    lol just twink bro
    Shuzzy bureacrat

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by reids View Post
    I used to solo level 60 raids on my old level 25 enforcer, and afk solo them on my 76 MP :/
    Please elaborate further. How were you soloing level 60 city raids on level 25 or level 76 toons?

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  11. #11
    I know some members of my org have brought this up before. It all started when we decided to do a full team org raid of all of our lowbies.

    We had my 60 crat (decently twinked and able to solo raids easily), my brother's MA (better gear than my crat, solos raids easily), an Advy (decently geared), another Advy (decently geared), and an Enfo (new player, fairly good gear for a new player, but nothing great).

    Now the raid has become 6 aliens + hacker. Nobody had nano. Aliens would show up and instantly wipe our nanopools, even when I snared them at 30+ meters. I'm dead serious about that. Once we got onto the ship, it was the same story, and it eventually wiped us. All of us, and I do mean all of us, were out of nano almost the entire ship raid.
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  12. #12
    AO is too hard.. better nerf all content
    You hit Tarasque with nanobots for 18280 points of melee damage.
    First shade with Blades of Boltar
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by SultryVoltron View Post
    I know some members of my org have brought this up before. It all started when we decided to do a full team org raid of all of our lowbies.

    We had my 60 crat (decently twinked and able to solo raids easily), my brother's MA (better gear than my crat, solos raids easily), an Advy (decently geared), another Advy (decently geared), and an Enfo (new player, fairly good gear for a new player, but nothing great).
    I was the MA, geared for damage, not pure evades and was the most frustrating raid of my life. Stopped lowbie raiding soon after this because of the nano drain. It's something fairly new because I used to be able to afk solo raids and don't remember the nano drain happening like ... a year ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Esssch View Post
    I think you're wrong. I think AO is the most balanced MOBA out there.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Otansaanpas View Post
    AO is too hard.. better nerf all content
    Come on, if you are just going to be negative, take it elsewhere.
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Otansaanpas View Post
    AO is too hard.. better nerf all content
    qft
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    Quote Originally Posted by Otansaanpas View Post
    AO is too hard.. better nerf all content

  16. #16
    LEAVE CITY RAIDS THE WAY THEY ARE. DONT YOU DARE TO CHANGE A THING.


    Cos if you destroy Otansaanpas bot farm, he will rage quit and take his 15 accounts with him forcing the game to shutdown. Srly. The man has worked hard all these years to develop his business and now you damn commies want to take over and get everything for free?


    Also, the new playfield should drop a ****load of absurdly high max damage weapons and some 1000+ nanoresist items in the first 2 weeks. Then remove them from the drop table (but not nerfed ofc). People who have been playing the game for decades absolutly must have the game turned into a cakewalk or they will quit and the internet will end.
    Gustatus similis pullus.

  17. #17
    I notice you did not have much reflects (unless you forgot to tell about OBs).

    One minimum requirement when doing aliens is some sort of reflects.
    Else, they do too much dmg, even for a decent doc with good supply of nano.

    Also, Variable has a very important point:
    If u kill hacker first, then there's only two minutes left to kill adds!
    ...and with 4 adds, you simply need more damage ie. more (outside) people in team.


    BTW:
    If you think low level AI raids are unbalanced, then gather a team of 174s.
    Even twinked, you will have your hands full.
    Proud Member of The Roots ----- Neut 4 Ever!! ----- Oh, btw: Here's The Story of Stuff & the Most Terrifying Video You'll Ever See.
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  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Lusos101 View Post
    Also, the new playfield..
    Holy derail, Batman!

    anyway, i cant really remember how my crat performed at low levels but it wasnt anything magical.
    Docs dd really depends from bad to none if you use temporal chalise or not,
    and keepers are not much better leaving MA pretty much the only dd you had.

    i really see this as a group composition issue and not as faulty game mechanics.

    that said, i dont think this game should require twinking for leveling content, but rather getting right players and proffs. crat and keepers server no purpose there for other than small dd.
    You hit Tarasque with nanobots for 18280 points of melee damage.
    First shade with Blades of Boltar
    ---
    How much is enough?
    Member of Halinallet!

  19. #19
    You can't expect to defeat a content without being well equipped.

    You're just being lazy, tell your org mates to twink, or help them twink.

    Neleb robe, 130ish imps, 100 ish miy's armor should be enough really.

  20. #20
    /facepalm

    Looks like this place is full of people permanently stuck in write only mode.

    "All things point to that they didn't play to win, but for the game itself and to play well. ... Later in their evolution, they forgot all about playing and having fun. When their corrupted minds only cared for what new ways they could gain power, there was no room for the simple things in life."
    - One Who Will Always Listen
    "Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
    - Librarian Isador Aikos, W40k: Dawn of War
    "If you want to make enemies... try to change something."
    - Adam Jensen, Deus Ex: Human Revolution

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