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Thread: A future Game Dev's take on the state of AO and Shadowlands

  1. #1

    A future Game Dev's take on the state of AO and Shadowlands

    I can't figure out where I should be posting this, so it goes here.

    One, who am I to be handing out advice? Well, basically, a college student attending one of the few universities specializing in the design and implementation of video games. I have spoken with many people who have been developing games for the last four to thirty years, and have a fairly good grasp of game design theories and practices. I have played EverQuest, Asheron's Call, Dark Age of Camelot, and of course Anarchy Online. Devs, no, I'm not in your league of experience, but I believe I have perspectives that you lack. And as for the players who might want to argue about this, keep in mind that I'm probably speaking from the position of knowing more than you do.

    Now, the first major issue I will address here is the lack of communication and "PR" that FunCom has with its players. This is, remarkably, understandable if you realize that, to most developers, the game goes to a publisher who handles all that "marketing" stuff. Games are developed in a vacuum. That's the way this business is run.

    Except when you're developing an MMORPG.

    Let's face it: How many customers does AO have? I will hazard a guess of 50,000. This is based on no external knowledge, just a simple shot in the dark. Now, assume one tenth of these people browse the boards, and that one tenth of those post thoughts on every issue. That means that FC has constant and continual feedback from 500 people. My guess would be that you need one PR rep to 50 posters to keep track of this. FunCom employs (to my knowledge) two. On patch day, assume that half of those who browse the boards will post. This means that there are TWO THOUSAND, FIVE HUNDRED people who WILL make at least one post in this environment, and you will thus need 50 people employed to sort through the traffic on these days. Funcom employs....two. No wonder Customer Relations with Funcom is percieved to be so bad, they are chronically understaffed.

    Solution: More people must be hired.

    Now, you're saying that this is impossible when you're developing an expansion. Well, let's take a look at that, then.

    I've just gotten in from the thread about level requirements. Essentially, what the dev team has said is that, because of new items in the expansion, there is a need for level requirements to be in place until this comes out, so that all nano-programs will work "as intended" based on those rules. Now, this is bad design. It commits several sins, not the least of which is punishing the player. Similiarly, numerically the skill requirements simply make no sense and cannot be currentlybe achieved by a player under any circumstances in some cases. In a normal game, this might not be noticed for a long time, and even if it is cheating can always be used to acquire the "forbidden" item and use it. In AO, this cannot be allowed, so the item is, in effect, worthless.

    Another thing about the expansion that I've read is that, when in Expansion territory, nanoprograms will either not work as they did originally or will simply fail to work at all. This is bad design because it punishes the player for learning how to play the game. I can guarantee you that when someone walks into the Shadowlands for the first time and finds out their nukes do half damage there because they don't have the special "Shadowlands" nukes, they will get disgusted, log off, quit, and either return their copy of Shadowlands or shove it into the nearest furnace.

    The individuals responsible for this decision should be sacked. And viola, with the rates designers are paid you can probably afford to hire more CS personnel to handle these boards and provide feedback. Furthermore, since Shadowlands will likely be irrepreably broken with these "enhancements" removed, as should be done post-haste, you can probably save on development costs and release the new zones much more quickly, probably attracting new customers to the game. Focus on Shadowlands CONTENT, not the game-tweaking, and you will have a good expansion. Do otherwise, and I think you will doom Anarchy Online to the ignominity of being the first MMORPG to shut the doors forever.

  2. #2
    Your post is one assumption after another. First you assume you have more perspective then they do, well all you can really get away with saying is.. that you have a different perspective perhaps.

    More staff? I disagree there too. Funcom has enough staff, plenty of ARKS, GM's, Directors etc to handle the current situations. Any forum needs no more then 2 moderators.

    Tonight there was major server issues but it seems to have been handled quite nicely, and you cant blame FUNCOM for issues that are quite possibly out of their control.

    Pretty much I didnt find your post a rant, but defintely redundant, and kinda pointless. Funcom have heard it all before.

  3. #3
    Thats a very nice view on AO... What school are you attending? :P
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  4. #4

    nyum nyum nyum... that crack tastes GOOD

    HAH! I just happen to go to a university that is very technology-oriented too, and guess what? I'm just as intelligent (or unintelligent) as anyone else on these boards. Why? I'm not in the biz. I haven't worked ten or so years on games. All I know is what I see and read in the papers.

    MOVING OVER TO YOUR MOST GASEOUS POST!

    -Emiko has it almost right when it comes to the number of PR on these here boards. We do need more, but I would say more in the region of 6 or eight, not fifty. At that, two shouldn't be on the boards, but rather putting up articles on what the developers are doing. I would argue that one of FC's fatal PR flaws hasn't been the number of people, but that they have been running this game like Willy Wonka's. MMORPGs differ in that the players are as active as the developer in creating the world--it becomes difficult to create a coherent world when one hand (the players) doesn't know what the other (the devolopers) is doing, which can only lead to frustration. Furthermore, I doubt that FC can even afford 47 more people with a MMORPG that is as small as AO.

    -Level requirements? Eh, everybody knows they suck. Why complain more?

    -How the nanoprogams work depends on whether it's absolute or not. If the NPs are unpredictable, as in one minute you're doing huge damage, next they ain't workin', then they're adding in a real element of danger. Whereas, if they just don't work in some places, it would really blow.

    -Yeah, ditto with the content. We need more content!

    -While I'm blabbing, check out this article at Gamespot. Interesting opinon on balancing.

  5. #5

  6. #6
    A very short thing to add... Although having a larger amount of PR peeps could be good you must think that every PR person will out themselves in a different way which will and can cause many clashes. "But the other PR guy abc said so and you are telling me this is different. BS! I hate funcom".

    Everquest itself has only 1 PR person posting in forums to my knowledge (AbsorEQ is the nick) and the only reason they can respond to player requests fast is cause they patch every week at least once and can add content which is not the case in AO...

    Also as you know Funcom had to drop several of their workers to probably jump over a possible economic chrisis...I would hate to see em go bankrupt just to give every 50 poster a PR person

    PS: o well wasnt that short after all
    Marodeur
    Vampire of the Shadow Ops
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  7. #7

    Arrow

    Devs, no, I'm not in your league of experience, but I believe I have perspectives that you lack. And as for the players who might want to argue about this, keep in mind that I'm probably speaking from the position of knowing more than you do.
    You certainly have the appropriate people skills for the job.
    Schu , Hylle and f a m i l y

    "I'm trying to see things from your point of view, but I can't get my head that far up my a***"

  8. #8

    Arrow

    The issue with nanoprograms etc and Shadowlands... the Shadowlands are a *different* reality - why should things work the same there?

    If Shadowlands was just the same old thing but with different graphics I'd feel a bit cheated really.
    "Do not try and catch the hamster... that's impossible. Instead only try to realize the truth... There is no hamster, only a deadbeat rollerat..."

    [Social] Means: I don't think we removed any bosses because of bad pathing...there wouldnt be any left if we did :P

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  9. #9
    While I agree there is problem with dev/player communications, your model doesn't scale. Adding more PR folks will make it more likely we'll have inconsistent statements, will add to the cost of running the game and may not be noticeably useful. You should be trying to reach more than just the 10% of the player base that reads the boards.

    Admittedly many other models currently in use aren't great either (one or two community folks for the whole game) but I think those other games are doing much better than AO is. In many games (AO, DAoC, etc.), shortly after release there are too many posts for the PR folks to keep up with. That does not seem to be the case here.

    Currently, in AO, the PR folks seem to be aware of most of the big issues that are brought up. The organization of these boards (*lots* of small, directed forums) and the existence of the professionals program make their lives easier. We as players may not see as many responses as we'd like, but I submit it's not because of a lack of PR people. If you look at the pace at which the game changes (very slow), I think you'll see a similar pace of PR responses. If the game were to change more quickly (bug fixes, content, enhancements, etc.) then the need for PR would be greater.
    Norton - 158 Clan Martial Artist, RK1

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  10. #10

    Re: A future Game Dev's take on the state of AO and Shadowlands

    Originally posted by Lily Inverse
    And as for the players who might want to argue about this, keep in mind that I'm probably speaking from the position of knowing more than you do.
    You assume alot, my brotha. I've worked in the field for over 7 years myself. I know one other guy on this board (or at least he's currently playing- I don't know that he actually posts here) who's had a very nice run in games with Valve and... Ritual...? I think it was Ritual.

    Not that it matters- anyone can have a good idea, or a worthwhile suggestion. You just have to be interested. Anyone on this board could have something meaningful to say.

    But, having started out with a nice sweeping insult, you immediately plunge into business advice. You're not a business major. You said so yourself. Now I'm certain there are many people here speaking from the position of knowing more than you do on *that* subject, junior.
    Last edited by Blue Cat; Sep 16th, 2002 at 23:23:55.
    k- This message has been reviewed by intrusive goons searching for "evil-doers".

  11. #11
    Funny really to see a self-proclaimed programmer spout business and marketing advice.

    Hmm, now, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't programmers supposed to talk about, you know, things like game design? Maybe?

    I'm a programmer myself, but I haven't got much to say about the way AO and most MMORPG's work - they all work, to an extent. They all have their problems, but they're also all fun to play.

    I'm more interested in having fun

  12. #12
    Originally posted by Xitami
    Funny really to see a self-proclaimed programmer spout business and marketing advice.

    Hmm, now, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't programmers supposed to talk about, you know, things like game design? Maybe?

    I'm a programmer myself, but I haven't got much to say about the way AO and most MMORPG's work - they all work, to an extent. They all have their problems, but they're also all fun to play.

    I'm more interested in having fun

    Amen Brotha.

    If you are going to give advice email Funcom Lily.
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  13. #13
    Anyone who starts off a statement saying they are smarter then anyone here, just proves they are not.

    I have been watching these boards for quite awhile and think the devs do a pretty good job. They seem to respond to real items of concern, not just rants.

    I have watched AO get better and better since I started in August 2001. So FC must be doing something right.
    Hemicrusher

    My Current Armor Setup Nail Armor Baby!

    Stupidity Should Be Painful

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  14. #14

    Talking Re: A future Game Dev's take on the state of AO and Shadowlands

    Originally posted by Lily Inverse
    Well, basically, a college student attending one of the few universities specializing in the design and implementation of video games.
    Boy have you got a reality check in store you!!!

    It it doesnt matter that what you say after the quote may
    or may not be true.It doesnt matter that the Devs may agree with you,the marketing dept. may agree with you.the PR guys
    may agree with you.If the CFO tells the CEO that only 2 guys are needed then thats all your going to get.

    You see(and you'll find this out)that the guys upstairs are playing a different game and its got nothing to do with guns,or mobs or nanos or implants or any of that stuff,but everything to do with money.

    It's sad but true,and the sooner you realize it the easier it will be on you when you get out in the real world.

  15. #15

    So Far So Good

    Granted I have not had the unfortunate circumstance of lost/missing items or dealt with a bug causeing a massive xp loss...

    However having played since last Nov. or so I have had nothing but a speedy response from Arks/GM and FunCom e-mail support...they cant' always solve my problems but work very hard to try and figure a solution each and everytime, with a positive attitude to boot even in face of failure....

    Forum admin repsonds to my Private messages and Dev's read my posts......sounds to me like everythings workin out pretty darn well

    Keep on Keepin' on Guys!!
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  16. #16

    Re: A future Game Dev's take on the state of AO and Shadowlands

    Originally posted by Lily Inverse
    And as for the players who might want to argue about this, keep in mind that I'm probably speaking from the position of knowing more than you do.
    r u bozo?
    Skebet Omni lvl 181 MP

  17. #17
    I think that the only thing that is REALLY wrong with AO is the communication between Funcom and the customers. They are to slow and to vague. They dont make a REAL effort to let people know what is happening. Take the full IPR thing. One thread in community corner. A very under read forum. Messages on the Login page tend to get overlooked by most people as well. What they need is a global message of the day. Every time you login you get a message from funcom eg. Today is the last day for full ipr.

    well those are my thoughts. cant be bothered to try and clarify or expound upon those, as I have RL work to do would much rather be playing AO, bugs and poor customer communication included.
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  18. #18
    Hmmm...

    Here's my take on Lily's post. After reading it, I think her concern boils down to a business decision, which is, who generates the "requirements" for the game (or any game for that matter). Is it the Architect or Producer of the game, or is it the consumer? I would guess that the Architect drives the requirements now, with an eye always on community feedback for useful ideas. But, the main driver here not what the consumer necessarily is asking for. This, of course, would make sense.

    It appears to me that Lily makes the case to use the forums as a "requirements farm" via moderators that will analyze and filter various ideas back into Funcom. Funcom would then discuss the ideas to categorize them by several classifications (type of change, difficulty, scope, test requirements) to formulate a quick and dirty business case for the more useful ideas. I think Lily belives this is how Funcom should operate...?

    So, my question is, what is the business model that Funcom uses to come up with new enhancements, content ideas, etc.? How is community input utilized, filtered, implemented? To what degree? A brief overview of the process involved, and perhaps an example, would be very interesting to read.

    I don't have time to be a back seat driver, I'm just an information junkie.



    Thoughts?
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  19. #19
    you sound like one of those management type people that care only about the what THEY think is the best for everyone.

    Funcom obviously has reason for doing things a certain way. But don't try to undermind everyone else by stating that you know more than most.

    From they way you protray yourself good luck getting a job as an Developer, and if you're planning on starting your own company cause you sound like the management type (Annoying business catch phrases, poor sense of team work and the ability to undermind others) good luck you will need it when it comes to employee morale.

  20. #20

    Talking

    Ah does anyone know where the mens room is in here?
    Bad Fixer
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