The Perfect Weapon!

[______________Yeshua]

The perfect weapon

There has been a lot of talk lately about possible ways to improve the trade skills.
Many people have brought up the fact that Funcom claimed that players would not have to kill MOBs or NPCs to be a functioning member of the AO community. I can remember something on the box about being able to role-play as an ordinary citizen of Rubi-Ka. Well, as it stands, this is hardly the case. Everyone who plays has to kill in order to advance at reasonable pace. The game is heavily biased in favor of players who would prefer to kill. Any true pursuit of trade skills is a side note to the “main event”. This boxed in approach to role-playing is not only suffocating, but contrary to what was promised by Funcom as well. The concept of role-play needs to be broadened. Why have even 100 different professions, if ultimately we are all really just assassins. I want to be creative, constructive, connected. I want to fabricate the perfect weapon, and stamp my name on it, so everyone will know! I want to make armor that an enforcer would KILL for. I don’t want to grab a recipe book, and drudge around looking for parts to make a weapon that no one wants. The approach that Funcom has taken toward trade skills doesn’t do them justice. There is great potential, but they haven’t scraped the surface. Funcom has the ability and the framework to do something extraordinary with AO.

If we consider the way that implants are made, we can see the framework that I’m speaking of. There are a number of implants, and each has three (3) slots (faded, bright, and shinning). There are several different clusters that can go in each of these slots dependant upon the implant itself, and all of this is governed by a simple QL system. The resulting implant is modified by what is put into it. There is no “Recipe Book” for a “Shinning E=mc^ Head Implant”. Players are required to use their creativity and work through the problem to make something that is useful out of raw materials. In the same way, the processes for weapon, armor, robot, and clothing manufacture could be modified to allow for the same amount, if not even more freedom. Imagine being able to obtain a QL 100 rifle construction kit. It has 5 slots, because it’s a “big old riffle”, (the pistol kits only have 3 slots, shotguns have 4). You have several different parts that can be put into the slots, and each part modifies the attributes of the riffle in some way. Maybe you want longer range, so you put on a “high accuracy barrel” in the barrel slot. Perhaps, you want more power, so you slap in a “nano regulated high pressure compression chamber”. Each of the components have to be a certain QL, just like implants and clusters, but the finished product would be something more than any other RP game has ever provided. Players would no longer simply interact with the simulation; they would have the ability to actively change their world through the act of creation.

This level of interaction could be incorporated into all kinds of trade skill processes, and it would revolutionize the player’s experience. I envision an entire trade community dedicated to improving on weapons and armor designs. Clothing guilds that feed the growing fashion community. Engineers that actually engineer devices, instead of simply manufacturing them, according to specifications.

I am not a programmer, at least not in RL. However, I wouldn’t think that these ideas should be so hard to implement. Like I said, the frame is already there. Funcom just has to put some flesh on the bones. More “good” content is always desirable, and this level of interaction would make a lot of people very happy.

BTW, why not put me on payroll, I’d love to make real money for ideas like this...

[_______________Garzu]

I like this idea very much, but i would like maybe 15 spots to place in different weapon "clusters". You would have to choose between dmg and range, specials or range, specials or crits etc. And different clusters for what weapon skills is required.

Very good idea

[______________Yeshua]

More options are always better. I was just trying to go easy on old Funcom.

[__________WGMelchior]

I'd rather have as many slots as there are different parts.


Like, all kits requires a barrel.

Pistols would be limited to short barrels, and the barrel would affect crits, attack speed and such.

Shotguns would get longer range with longer barrels, but worse crits. Short barrels would create a 'sawn-off' effect, which makes the range worse, but if you get a nice crit it really HURTS.

Rifles would have their range increased, but their reload time lengthened with a long barrel. Shorter barrels (called carbines, I think) makes the gun easier to reload, but it's harder to shoot far.


All kits also requires some kind of ammunition magazine, and a propultion system for that kind of ammo.

If you want to use chemical damage, the system requires longer recharge times, and smaller magazine capacity.

Energy damage will yield a larger ammo pack and lesser recoil(recharge time).

Radiation damage requires heavy shielding, which would slow down the gun.


Also, items for specials should also be available, but the penalty for adding snipe to a rifle should be less than adding it to a pistol, for example.

[______________Yeshua]

This could open the trade skill community wide. Funcom just needs to recognize the potential and act on it. Hell, maybe they could even ask us players for direct input. I'd be more than happy to help develop these systems, as I'm sure many players like WGMelchior would as well.

The outcome could be nothing other than "SWEET"

[_________machievelli]

Yeshua,

Good points. What you envision has been done in DIABLO II.

I can't understand why "second" generation games simply do not implement the ideas that came before them.

Funcom has this weird vision where they reject all of the other games benefits and pit falls.

I don't get it.

Some don't believe an idea is a good one if it isn't their own.

Blah........

Trade skills - weapon improvements - they can be simply implemented..... it's not that hard.

Unfortunately, when I read these boards, I realize that it is sad that the people playing these games don't invent them.... then we might have something really great.......

-Mach

[___________Damion666]

bump...... wicked idea... and make doing stuff like making weapons and implants give more xp... like 1 cluster put into an implant gives the same ammount of xp a mob of the same lvl would

[_________MikeWeather]

1 cluster the same as killing 1 mob? That would make tradeskills a quicker way to get xp than hunting. Everyone would just run missions for cash and implant parts, then go buy what they need and construst implants to get insane exp. I agree there should probably be an increase in the xp you get for tradeskills, but that is a bit extreme.

Though Nano Programers would probably stop asing for donations

[_______________Axist]

when i started this game i was pretty exited about the tradeskills, but it didnt take alot of time to realize it wasnt usable.

the potential is hughe. But several things ust change in order to get it work so ppl can make a living purely by doing tradeskils, and not do a single kill to level. For example the shopsystem. It must be easier to sell the items you make than the horrible shopchannel. To let ppl be able to function as shops for example. or make shops where ppl can put theyr items for sale would make it much better. We have tradeskills for diffrent professions, such as Doctor, Engineer, Trader, Nano Tech's maybe more - Maybe a appartment for Trading with sections for each type of tradeskills could be implemented. They could put in some extra stuff in the already new made Tradeappartments in shops instead maybe.

All tradeskills should be improved, more weapons, more stims for the doctor to make. The Nano Crystal making is almost good enough, if Ppl that looted discs had a market in town to sell them to. (Traders that see buisness in buying them from warriors out in the huntinggrounds fighitng) But then it *must* be easier to sell them. As said the shopchannel is horrible, since ppl have to meet, and your product get spammed by alot of other products.

in example if you have 20 nano crystals to sell, it would be lot easier to sell by standing in a shop and be able to function as a shop, so several ppl can just check what you have before they maybe have to buy it from the vendor machine instead.

the potential is hughe in tradeskills, and i see the new trade section in shops as the first step to better times for ppl that love to make things. now bugfixing, more items to make and better way to sell/shop must be made. I hope funcom follows up on the work they started.

[______________Yeshua]

I realize that it is a bit early in the "process" to talk about visuals, but here's a thought. Most In game items have a pre-fabricated image that is used when the item is worn. I was just thinking that it may be cool to make the new weapons look like the spare parts that they're made from. This way, when you walk around wielding your weapon, everyone would know that it was a custom job. Like I said, it's just food for thought, but I'd hate to have my "Red Rider Super Cooled Air Rifle" mistaken for some lousy "Lovemaker".

Obviously, visuals would take more to stamp out, and may not be included as part of the initial patch that could introduce the weapon creation enhancements. We'd probably be stuck with generic template visuals. Maybe we could atleast have a slot which gives us a choice as to which visual we'd like to use for our kit. This would of course be governed by the type of kit (pistol, riffle, shotgun).

Hmm..

Anyone have any input on what to do about melee and edged weapons construction. I imagine it could be made about the same. Though conceptually the considerations would be entirely different. My mouth is watering....

[________________LRRH]

Melee weapons would be much simpler, for starters, and would probably be more tool-oriented than your firearms example.

For instance:

Joe wants to make a sword. The absolute basic requirements are a blade and a hilt; that's two pieces, and all you have to do is fit them together and make sure they stay that way.

So Joe goes to the trade department of his local store, and starts rifling through the terminals. He picks up a Nano-Alloy Blade (x4 layers), and a Self-Moulding Plain Hilt (no crossguard).

He digs through his toolbag and snags his Molecule Shaver, and uses it on the blade; the edge of the blade is now only a couple of molecules wide, super-sharp. It'll do more damage and move swifter this way, but require a bit more skill to use.

Next, he uses some Self-Replicating Energy Mites and injects them into the hilt; this "activates" the hilt, allowing it to mould its shape to whatever hand wields it. This too improves performance, and will help offset the molecule shaving he did to the blade.

So Joe's looking at his two pieces, and considering if he wants to do anything special with the weapon. Right now it's just a plain blade, and it'll cut, but is not too hard to deal with. So back to the terminals he goes.

Considering the selection, our weaponsmith picks up a container of Sunfire(TM) gel, and, in combination with his Alloy Injecter, applies it to the blade. The alloy is now permanently altered to such an extent that it can never be undone; when it bites into an opponant, a thousand degrees of heat will burn through it and into the target.

Finally, Joe applies some standard Nano Glue to the blade, slips it into the hilt, and activates it with a multi-purpose Nanomite Activator, bringing the glue to "life" and making the two pieces join together until the stars themselves die.

----

So there's one. Blunts probably wouldn't be too terribly different. And we would still need terminals that we could sell to that other people could buy from. ;)

[Docgalaad]

You wrote:

"I can remember something on the box about being able to role-play as an ordinary citizen of Rubi-Ka. Well, as it stands, this is hardly the case. Everyone who plays has to kill in order to advance at reasonable pace. "

If i read the box text, it's not mentionned of possibility to evolve your character without leveling. But we can play like a citizen.
I dont understand your complaint... Play like a citizen is not compatible with playing a fighter. Play social or play fighter. The game volontarily prevent the player to not evolve without kill any mobs. Because, to be a citizen, is not an evolving matter. Just to be lazy.

Even in UO we have to kill a mob to be a blacksmith or a bowcraftman. Would you really level without play the combat mode of this game ? So, you dont accept the FC concept that makes this product a Combat RPG. It's not Sim City.

When we give you a hand, you want the arm.


But i'm a diplomat. So, if you really want a changement and FC give us this opportunity. I'll be happy to roleplay with you in a social way of evolving.

[______________Yeshua]

But it doesn't seem to have much to do with making weapons. So, I'll just disregard most of what you said. However, as far as being lazy... Playing the game from a tradesman's perspective is not lazy at all. It takes more planning and fore thought than running into a room full of mobs and opening fire. I enjoy an occasional hunt, but I hate feeling as though that is the only way to advance my character. It gets tired quick, as I'm sure you'd agree, but then, I don't know you, and I don't want to be presumptuous. So, if all you want to do is go out and kill things, go right ahead. I won't say one word against it, but please return the favor.

Thanks for your input LRRH. Your suggestions sound promising.

[__________ChrisF0001]

Originally posted by Gilgalaad
Even in UO we have to kill a mob to be a blacksmith or a bowcraftman. Would you really level without play the combat mode of this game ?

Since when was this the case? In UO it's perfectly possible to be a blacksmith without ever entering combat mode. Just start your character as a miner / tinker / blacksmith. Mine your own ore, smelt it into ingots, tinker your own tools when they wear out, and train up your blacksmith skill with the metal you've made. If you pick the right starting city, you need never even leave the guard zone, let alone wield a weapon.

Many people do indeed play like this, and actually like doing it... And I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be possible to be a non-combat character in AO as well. It's not as if allowing people to gain money and experience by building items would stop other people from fighting monsters.

[_____________Photeus]

there would be some problems that would need to be ironed out...

Im a trader and have just made the patented -
"ewbahshottie 20k"! ql100...

high min dmg, high max dmg
rad/chem dmg type
delay of 1.00
stick a quick recharge burst if you want (or not its up to you!)
1 handed with a low req multi wield

ok so its a bit exaggerated but the above scenario is relatively feasible.... dont get me wrong i absolutely love the idea of being able to build your own weaps in this way but funcom would have to figure out how to balance it out (penalties for dmg type or something)... Im just saying it sounds like a major amount of work. We have problems with class balancing as it is without Funcom getting their fingers into weapon balancing as well :S

give it a week and ol' Funners will unleash the Nerf-a-Tron 4000 on us once again

[______________Yeshua]

I agree that player fabricated weapons will have to retain reasonable wielding requirements. This is easily alleviated by raising or lowering wielding requirements according to the QL of the kit. However, there should be some advantage to making weapons as well. In other words, a weapon of a certain QL may do 100 damage with a 200 crit, if the same weapon was player made at the same QL it would do a little more damage and the wield requirements would stay the same or maybe decrease slightly. This is how treatment labs and stims currently function. When a Doc makes a treatment lab the reqs for use are lower, and the healing is higher.

The idea is to have a community of trades people who focus mainly on weapons and other good manufacture. Balance should not be an extremely large issue, mainly due to the fact that these weapons will only be available when people make them. They won't be mass produced, atleast not on the scale that generic weapons are. It will be a special occasion to find someone with a "manufactured" weapon. Basically, this is a more realistic vision of Rubi-Ka. Just like on earth, not everyone here uses a "Desert Eagle" some use ".38 special", still others may choose to use an "Ithica". All of the mentioned weapons have numerous variations and customizations. There would just be a larger variety of weapons to choose from. You could even commision a weapons smith to build a weapon to your specs. Guilds could have entire sections devoted to trade skills, and produce high quality weapons for use in team PvP combat.

Ultimately, this game never has and never will be balanced, but I don't think that weapons manufacture will tilt the scale in either direction. Only so many people will be able to attain one, and not everyone that attains one will use it to over power others in PvP. What it would do, is present a viable option for those who prefer to create and trade items, rather than participating in mindless killing. And more options are always better.

[______________Kalris]

it would be more effective if there were a few standard designs for each weapon type each design with 2-4 open slots that could be fitted with scope(except pistols) triple pulse enabler(except shotgun) cooling system(faster fire rate) a propulsion device(determines damage type and ammo) longer/shorter barrel(range and damage)... ect ect, but some sort of customization needs to be added some gun types could not use certain upgrades and the few open slots the better base damage for the weapon

[_____________Makarov]

Ohhh folks please keep on talking because that what you say are the MAIN reason why i bought AO.
And reading this makes me to forget all FUBARenes of todays trade skills.

oohhhhh Custom weapons !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Or Robots which you make in old way by trade skills.
Or Customizing of weapons

So make me a bit happy today ( been whitout NET for a week now, i dont count Work) keep on talking!

[Graxxus]

I think the best way to incorporate a more standardized weapon construction template would be to incorporate a setup similar to implant construction. Each QL of a weapon kit would have a set of base statistics for the final product and would require a certain amount of additions to be added to it(slots). Each addition to be added would consist of trade skill items pre-constructed before adding to the kit. Recipes would be available for these additions. Each of these additions would have modifiers on them that would alter the base statistics for that weapon kit's main abilities. Once all of the additions have been placed into the weapon kit the final weapon would be created.

Examples of additions
Weapon kit
Base attributes
Range
Attack Rate
Recharge Rate
min-max(crit bonus)
1. Barrel (barrel or enhanced barrel)
2. Free slot
3. Damage Type
4. Cooling system
5. Scope (greatly modifies max damage)
6. Free slot

Increases attack rate
1. Self-Repairing Ultra-XSkill To Assemble: Weapon Smt

2. Notum Enriched Nano Paste - 1x LayerSkill To Assemble: Nano Progra

Increases Max Damage(free slot)
1. Notum Alloy Strengthened RibsSkill To Assemble: Mech. Engi

Increases Min Damage(free slot)
1. Nano PylonSkill To Assemble: Mech. Engi


Cooling System

Increases Max damage (only one per weapon):

1. Primitive Freon Bag Cooling SystemSkill To Assemble: Weapon Smt

2. Notum Enriched Nano Paste - 2x LayerSkill To Assemble: Nano Progra

Increases Attack rate (only one per weapon):
1. Hyper Carbo-Ceramic Cooling SystemSkill To Assemble: Weapon Smt

2. Notum Enriched Nano Paste - 2x LayerSkill To Assemble: Nano Progra

Greatly Increases Attack rate, Decreases Max damage (only one per weapon):
1. Nano-Interfaced Cooling SystemSkill To Assemble: Weapon Smt:
Special attacks(free slot)

Enable Aimed shot(free slot)
Modifier
Reduction in max damage:
1. Runtime Critical Area AnalyzerSkill To Assemble: Weapon Smt

2. Notum-enriched nano paste - 2x LayerSkill To Assemble: Nano Progra


Enable Burst(free slot)
Modifier
Reduction in min damage:
1. Tripple Pulse EnablerSkill To Assemble: Weapon Smt

2. Notum-enriched nano paste - 2x LayerSkill To Assemble: Nano Progra


Enable Fling(free slot)
Modifier
Reduction in max damage:
1. Rapid-Reload-And-Fire GyroSkill To Assemble: Weapon Smt

2. Notum-enriched nano paste - 2x LayerSkill To Assemble: Nano Progra


Enable Full Auto(free slot)
Modifier
Reduction in range:
1. Gyro Stabalizing UnitSkill To Assemble: Weapon Smt

2. Notum-enriched nano paste - 2x LayerSkill To Assemble: Nano Progra






Damage type additions (specific AC)

Enables Imp/Proj AC (only one per weapon):

1. Explosion Propulsion Containment ChamberSkill To Assemble: Mech. Engi

2. Nano PylonSkill To Assemble: Mech. Engi

3. Notum Enriched Nano Paste - 1x LayerSkill To Assemble: Nano Progra



Enables Energy AC (only one per weapon)
Modifier
Increases Min Damage:
1. Explosion Propulsion Containment ChamberSkill To Assemble: Mech. Engi

2. Nano PylonSkill To Assemble: Mech. Engi

3. Energy Pack InterfaceSkill To Assemble: Elec. Engi

4. Notum Enriched Nano Paste - 1x LayerSkill To Assemble: Nano Progra

Increases Energy Max Damage (only one per weapon):
1. Energy Conduction RackSkill To Assemble: Quantum FT

2.Notum Enriched Nano Paste - 2x LayerSkill To Assemble: Nano Progra



Enables Fire AC (only one per weapon)
Modifier
Decreases Min Damage:
1. Compression Chamber for ChemicalsSkill To Assemble: Weapon Smt

2. Nano PylonSkill To Assemble: Mech. Engi

3. Plasma Streamer Interface NozleSkill To Assemble: Chemistry

4. Notum Enriched Nano Paste - 1x LayerSkill To Assemble: Nano Progra

[______________Yeshua]

Your post is a little cryptic, Graxxus, but I think you're saying the same thing I'm saying, lots of interesting ideas. Maybe you could repost and explain what your specific examples mean...

I will point out that the idea is to do away with "recipes", as they limit the player’s ability to "create". Obviously, creativity will always be stunted, regardless of how open they make the process, because we're not actually working at the component level, but the modular level. Furthermore, there are a finite number of modules that can be simulated, as any game is ultimately finite.

Perhaps part of the problem lies in the descriptions of items and their various uses. I have a friend on RK-1 named "Fractaloon". He spends a lot of time tinkering with trade skills. One day he showed me some "Liquid Explosives" or "Liquid Fuel" he had made by taking flamethrower fuel and using a screwdriver on it. He said that he just stumbled onto it. The descriptions of items should indicate whether the item can or cannot be modified or combined, and it should be clear as to what the item is. Alternatively, there could be a "Book of Knowledge" available in shops for Trades People to purchase, which contains additional information about all game items. A trades Person could take this raw data and make inferences about the possible uses of the items and how to properly combine them, rather than relying on a recipe.

This added freedom would allow for a better and more in-depth gaming experience. So, I support the idea of a "slot oriented" approach to most trade skills, but I think that any use of pre-formatted recipes is too limiting, and is really indicative of a lazy approach to trade skills all together. The difference between a good simulation and a bad simulation is freedom of choice. It requires a more open approach to programming to create the open trade skill environment that we are all pushing for. Yet, the capabilities to provide this level of game play seem to exist within the framework of AO. We just need the development team to recognize this, and act on it. There are still ~3.5 years left in this game. In that time I'd like to see Funcom do something revolutionary!