Engineers, Tradeskills and Traders.

[_____________Psilock]

I'd like to discuss some of the issues I have with the current setup for tradeskills on the Engineers and Traders as well as Engineer ideas.

The Engineer: My idea of the engineer in the world of Rubi-ka is that of a Techno-crat. That is... a genius with technology that, with using the technology at his disposal could make or achieve nearly anything. This would mean that the engineer much as he is now has nanos that only create either items(bots) or energy fields. This is perfectly in-line with the Eng.

But what I think is lacking is that the Engineer needs more trade skill defined abilities. Such as a greater variety of bots, weapons, armour for the eng that require their trade skills to use. The implementation of Tradeskill-weapons would be cool. Really, there are alot of tools and equipment that is extremely dangerous. Why wouldn't an Engineer use say a hand held version of a particle accelerator to punch holes in his enemies? Or some form of laser used to cut rock or hard metals? Or even small chemical devices that would be similiar to AoE grenades like nepalm etc. Now weapons like this would be based partly on Pistol, heavy weapons, grenades (low req eng skills) and primarily on mech eng, elec eng.

Introduction of weapons like this would further enhance the "feel" and atmosphere of an engineer not to mention reduce the Vektor ND clones that are going on.

One point I made was that new bots should be made available. These would be various versions of bots such as a ranged weapon bot variant of the melee bot we currently have. The info i've heard of the kamikazee bot sounds like a step in the right direction though.

The other issue I have is with Traders. Not exactly sure what the Funcom vision of this prof is but it seems mixed. Why the Trader has any trade skill at all is beyond me. Take a look at modern day "Traders", that is stock brokers and their ilk. Tell me what kind of RL Trader has knowledge about even auto mechanics let alone Quantum Physics. The AO version should be similiar IMO where the Trader is allowed access to special trade areas such as the upcoming black-market. But I think the best role for the trader would be to make them a hybrid NT/Soldier. They are pretty much on the mark now but enhancing HP and nano skills would go a long way. But at the cost of removing their trade skill nanos or giving them to the eng. Traders are like nano-vampires where they give and take items, skills and nanos at their whim and I don't really see how their being the best trade skill prof fits in.

[ouzzelle]

I couldn't have said it better, i'm not sure why the f*ck traders have those tradeskill buffs either.,

and like you said: I am clueless also as to the role of Traders in this game (xcept to kick everyones *ss in PvP),

every trader i've talked to has absolutly no interest in tradeskill related things in the first place, (xcept electriceng/and weaponSMT for those Low Light Scopes)

I think engys should get those tradeskill buffs.


As for the added content you were talking about:

That would ROCK, but would be greedy for us to ask for more, especially since we're getting new robots, and other classes sit around all gimped, pls don't get me wrong I WOULD LOVE to see some of you ideas come into affect Psilock,

*coughBUMPcough

[_____________Ahrimon]

I've been reading alot about how no one really knows what a trader is or why the wall street stock brockers should know how to buff quantum physics. I used to think that it was just a couple of people (no one inparticular mind you) that didn't know what the trader was. Well the more I read the more I think there are a lot of people out there that don't realize what the trader really is.

First off, just because they are called "Traders" don't compare them with todays wall street stock brokers. Heck it was only a couple hundred years ago that a trader was someone who traveled the land selling wares. AO isn't set in modern day times, so please don't compare the AO "Trader" with the modern day Trader.

What a Trader is, is as his name says, a Trader. He/She trades skills. He plunders it from a mob and trades it off to someone else. Or he can trade his own skills and give them to you.

That's why I think that traders should keep their trade skill buffs. Because that's what their class is all about.

Now if Traders get cheaper trade skills, ip wise, then that has got to change. Engineers should have the cheapest trade skills for our fields of expertise.

Ahrimon
------------------------------------------------
I'm not repetitive. I'm psychotic.

[_____________Psilock]

Ahrimon, I disagree with you. Funcom gave names as a descriptive indicatore of the profession. Their level titles do so further and one of which is "Salesman".

Aside from the name, you have basically reiterated my point about the trade skills. It makes no sense that a "Salesman" is better at engineering and trade skills than an "Engineer".

I could agree with you on the idea of Traders having the trade skill buff but only so long as they didn't have better trade skills than an eng.

[ouzzelle]

hmmm, i think this post is in need of....


BUMP!

We need more engy ideas , AND support from the engy community

ppl NEED to read, AND respond to this post, with intelligent solutions, and thoughts about the above topic,

it's rediculous that a class called Trader has better tradeskills than a class called Engineer...

Psilok i loved your description of the "Trader" class, and would love to see more ppl like you posting, about: What's the Role of an Engineer compared to a Trader?

DOH! i've gone and given myself an excuse to start a new thread ;D, oh well..

BTW: in response to Psilok's description of the Trader

I completely agree with you that Traders should be able to plunder/divest, and give their skills to other's, XCEPT tradeskills
it's out of character, and besides, they don't need those buffs anyway. ENGINEERS DO!, and frankly i'm sick of telling a friend i can make his Mausser Chem for him, but oops i need to find a trader for Meastro's... sooo i end up spending my tip on getting buffed so i can make the friggin thing=what i end up with=about 50k less than when i started, a headache, 1k more xp (woohooo, that's NOTHIN at lvl 136), but at least i've got a happy friend....

[MrBunny]

You mean engineers aren't those people from the battelbots show?

[____________Ejeckted]

engineers are a pet class with suplemental tradeskills.

traders are the primary tradeskill class.

that's why i rolled one and have played him since release day,
patiently waiting for useful (and profitable) tradeskills.

i did not start a trader to be a wrangling buff machine.

i did not start a trader to PvP,
and anyone designing a PvP trader will not have the IP
left over to be successful at tradeskills.

i'm happy we're finally going to be able to RP traders
by having our own 'wholesale shops' from which we
can hopefully obtain components and resell goods
that other players cannot.

right now, an enforcer is as good at RPing a trader
(selling stuff on the shop channel) as any trader.
that needs to change.

i want to be able to build weapons, customize weapons,
craft armor, and design other devices that other people
will purchase at a profit. that is the definition of a trader.

to say that a trader is designed to be some sort of soldier is silly,
even if many players now are creating combat-debuffers
due to the lack of any worthwhile traderskills and the lack
of any other way to level / raise skills than thru combat.

all it takes to figure out which is the intended tradeskill class
is to look in the nano booths at the general store,
if it took you this long to figure that out then im afraid it's a
"tough noogies" situation.

engineers get nanos that create robots.
traders get tradeskill buffs.

i would like to see engineers get a wider vairety of robots tho.
perhpas this 'kamikazee bot' will be a good start.
and then maybe a way to set up temporary stationary
side-alligned gun-turrets like those found in outposts?
and then, at high cost, juggernaughts

[_________KrazyKanuck]

Well scumbag i have to disagree with your opinion and it looks like you do to. You say you want to have a shop to be able to sell your stuff

i'm happy we're finally going to be able to RP traders
by having our own 'wholesale shops' from which we
can hopefully obtain components and resell goods
that other players cannot.

but then you say you want to be able to build stuff instead.

i want to be able to build weapons, customize weapons,
craft armor, and design other devices that other people
will purchase at a profit. that is the definition of a trader.

your TRADEr=TRADEskills equation is horrible at best. Sorry but i haven't seen a salesmen who has amazing techical knowledge in awhile. there may be some out there but that used car salesmen down the street?? gimme a break.

To think that ENGINEERs don't the the mech and electrical ENGINEERing buffs is just bass ackwards at best. Traders having tradeskills buffs is one of the worst thought out parts of the game. Engies build design and build stuff thats the way its always been and thats the way it will always be.

Fellow Engies, I think we should start a petition for us to get the tradeskill buffs.

*edit*one more thing in response to the second quote there. Building and designing devices that other people will purchase at a profit has never been the definition of a trader and never will. traders buy stuff from other people and sell it at a profit to other people. sounds like you got your people all screwed up.

[_________KrazyKanuck]

and one more thing. If i am a engineer who can create this massive bot so complex a trader couldn't even attempt it why would the trader be able to make the a simple gun where this engineer with this mastery of the technical junk can't???

makes no sense at all.

[ouzzelle]

yo guys, please keep it light,plllleeeessseee? i don't want this to turn into a burnfest.

True Engineers are good at Making Robot's, BUT the robot's just a nano, we cast it, we right click on shell, we get bot.....,

hehe i agree Scumbag that engy's should have more variety of bot's, and FC is making that effort.. kinda (the second bot is ql 140.. i'm lvl 136, this bot will be a couple lvl's lower than the one i can self cast now , and the patch isn't even scheduled for release yet),

anyways, Smooth posted a reply to my post on the trader forum's, basically the idea is, give both proffs the buffs, BUT in a different way, (this is where i promote my idea )

Nano Crystal Summon Grease Monkey Jump Suit MK1-10

Stats
+UBER mecheng
+UBER electriceng
+UBER complit
+UBER etc....

i'm really into this topic, so i started that post on the Trader boards to see what they thought about this whole thing

Go check it out

[____________Ejeckted]

well, RP aside,

nothing changes the fact that Traders, and only Traders,
have had the only tradeskill buffs since Day1.

that alone proves which class is supposed to be the 'best' at tradeskills.

but since traders and engineers both have green tradeskills,
it ultimately wont make much difference if that's where you
want to spend IP. tradeskills are easy to raise for both professions,
and both can reach the max cap.

personally, i think Traders got the buffs just because they
are a more IP-intensive profession. (basically every single
other skill, besides aqua shotgun, is blue)

[__________WGMelchior]

We will be building (as in putting together things) the kamikaze bots, using mechanical engineering and such.

[____________Ejeckted]

thanks to Ozzy here's the profession description link:
(felt it should be reposted in this thread)

http://www.anarchy-online.com/conten...e/professions/

"The Trader specialises in tradeskills and obtaining goods at the lowest possible prices. They also "trade" in skills, transferring them eithe from themselves to a target, or from the target onto themselves for a short period in time."

"The Engineer is the practical builder of hardware in a world where technology is dominant. They specialise in robot pets and electronics, but are also able to handle a certain amount of nano technology."

[__________WGMelchior]

So. judging from those descriptions, and the general 'feel' of the professions...


I think everyone, me including, is making a big misstake in trying to figure out whether engineers or traders should be the masters of tradeskills, because both should.

Engineers should be better at the technical parts, that requires a lot of thinking. This means that we should be best at electrical engineering and quantum forcefields.

The traders are more into mechanical things, and creating items to sell. Thus, mechanical engineering and weapon smithing should be their thing.


Does this sound okay, or am I totally wrong?

[Laszarus70]

Scumbug,

Posting those 2 descriptions from the AO site is misleading, because those are just synopsis's of the class. Try clicking on the name and follow it to the detailed background for the Engineer and Trader.

You'll find the following, which is interestingly enough, the very first sentence in the description:

The Engineer is the master of construction, both by conventional means and through the use of nano programs

Ho ho ho! "Master of construction". Need this be any clearer? "Both through conventional means and ... nano programs". Again, that seems awfully clear to me.

Further down you'll find the following bullets:

STRONG FIELDS

Trade skills
Nano formula skills


Now for the trader. The detailed overview doesn't mention tradeskills at all! However, they are listed in the bulleted "strong fields" just like the Engie, as follows:

STRONG FIELDS

Trade skills
Nano formula skills

Based on the description listed in the detailed section for each profession, there's no reason why Traders should be the only one's with tradeskill buffs.

Btw, even if FC did just give the apprentice, journeyman and maestro line to the Engineer as well, I can't imagine anyone would use it anyways. At least not all the way up to maestro level.

[____________Ejeckted]

oh? ya wanna RP do ya?

then explain to me why engineers can build robots
and the tradeskill specialists, traders, cant?

traders excell at all the same skills,
so they should be able to build a robot just as easily.

it's a balance issue.
we get tradeskills buff to make up for
*every other skill being blue*

you get to build robots. we get tradeskill buffs.

if you get tradeskill buffs, i want to be able to build a robot.

[_____________Psilock]

Scumbug, your analogy doesn't make sense.

Eng get bots while traders get the "Trader" nanos that swap health, skill and armour. That is the differance between profs nanos.

You have to admit that the idea of a "Trader" or "Salesman" being an apprentice or being better at Engineering than an ENGINEER is stupid. Admit it.

[____________Ejeckted]

regardless of the profession-name controversy,
only one profession has had tradeskill buffs since day 1, Traders.
jealous engineers will just have to deal with it.

engineers get nice bright green nanoskills for your bots.

traders get blue nanoskills . . blue everything . .
to make up it we get tradeskill buffs.

that's just the way the way the game is balanced.

if you were primarily interested in tradeskills over pets,
you should have rolled a trader.

forgive me for not being excited about giving my teammates
my health or giving my teammates my AC or giving my teammates
my skills and wrangling every twink . . woot. fun.

give give give give . . what do i get in return?
i get to be better at tradeskills.

i have been on these boards since release pushing for
tradeskill improvements and making suggestions and
fighting for a profitable player-based economy and that's
all my trader cares about.

quite frankly i think pet classes in AO have it way too easy.
a Demon or Slayerdroid can easily whip an equal level Enforcer.
Engineers recently got the best grid/teleport nano in the game.
(that should have gone to fixers) now you want Trader buffs too?
allow me to say "pfft!"

[_____________Nakomis]

Okay Scumbag, lemme get this straight.

Engineers get:
Green nano lines for their pets
A nano, that admittedly should have gone to fixers, and IS the best teleport nano (mind you however that it was obviously an afterthought)

Traders get:
ALL the money in game (don't tell me wrangles aren't profitable. if they aren't, i want my 500k back from that trader)
ALL the PvP titles. How many traders that PvP do u know that don't have titles? Not many from my observations. Traders are VERY overpowered in PvP.
ALL the tradeskill buffs. Tradeskills are green for you as well.


Looks a little unbalanced to me.

We aren't asking for the tradeskill buffs to be taken away from you. I'm not anyways. All we want is a tradeskill buff of our own. Hell, I don't think anyone would mind if they were self only.

Oh, and as far as our new bots? The Kamikaze bots? Yeah, we gotta build them. Wanna buff me real quick so I can make a decent one?

PatK9: The best PvP and the best momeymakers in game should not share the same profession.

Now please kindly get off our boards.


Catch ya planetside

[Laszarus70]

Originally posted by Scumbug

...only one profession has had tradeskill buffs since day 1, Traders.

Engineer only nano: Philosopher's Stone.

Guess Traders aren't the only ones that have had trade skill buffs since day 1, huh?