You are ONLY wanted for your HE and Calms.

[________Garzu-perman]

Yes, being away from the NT profession and starting at lvl 1 with a fixer, gives me alot of perspective on the NT.

First of all, you are not wanted for damage at all, MAs outdmg you and they can do some healing. Anyway, if you do more dmg than a prof, like a fixer, its very slightly, I often outdmg the NTs (dont see many NTs though), a few NTs though, who are twinked, do ok dmg, but its so little difference that noone wants you for it.

Today when we needed one mroe for our team, I saw an NT lfg, I told team that I was going to invite him, but at the same time, they had seen a crat about same lvl as the NT, and was wondering if I couldnt pick him instead.... Cause I started to argue that the NT had calms, but so do crats and then they said the Crat had a pet to tank, so I had to pull the HE out, and they finally agreed after some hard discussions.

Anyway, where are the NTs hiding these days? I always try to find one to team with, jsut for the support of you guys, but its hard to find, even harder than a doc...

If FC doesnt boost your dmg by a HUGE amount, your profession is worthless. Its really HE that is anything to speak of about the NT, only unique thing you got.

[Hajkster]

Sad part is that well the higher lvl nts get the better they get.. but at lower lvls they basicly sux =( Well now adays.. (was better long time ago)

[Naraya]

Ya...they really gotta do something about nuke damage or at least ease up on the dark shade of blue on one or two of the weapons. I'm already outpunching all of my fast nukes. I can even outpunch the mid/mid ones when I crit...lol.

We have the cheapest nano skills....yet..

We have the most expensive weapon skills...

We have the most expensive defense skills...

We have the most expensive life skills....

....and our damage as it stands is supposed to balance this?

[______________Squick]

So do you believe what you actually type, or just presume no one is going to check up on you?

Originally posted by Naraya
We have the most expensive weapon skills...

No you do not, MP gets that title, and the doc has the same offensive costs as you, here are the two cheapest attack skills:

- NT -

Pistol - 16
Grenade - 24

- MP -

Pistol - 24
2he - 25

- Doctor -
Pistol - 16
1hb - 24

We have the most expensive defense skills...

No you do not, Engineer gets that title, and the doc has the same defensive costs as you:

- NT -
Evade - 32
Dodge - 24

- Engineer -
Evade - 40
Dodge - 25

- Doc -
Evade - 32
Dodge - 24

We have the most expensive life skills....

Nope, NT, MP, Crat, and Engineer all have the same costing Body Dev skill.


NTs may need a tweak when it comes to damage, but I have heard people claiming stuff like what you said, and then using that to justify increasing the damage of nukes by up to 400% across the board... Yeah...

What do you think the designers at Funcom would do if they saw a totally uninformed post like yours? Do you think they would sit down and do any more research after they see you do not check your own research? Doubtfull... They will just chalk it up to, "Well, he was wrong about this, why would he be right about anything else?" If you want the NT class helped, don't post uninformed posts.

Squick

[________Billy Talent]

Is that the reason I have been stuck at 196 for 2 weeks?

[_______________Creep]

As far as I can tell, Squick is correct about the IP costs. Naraya is correct about one thing though, NTs have the most expensive skill in the game: Full Auto at a whopping 50. I think we get the 2nd most expensive as well: AR at 45.

Initially, I was quite surprised to see Metas with those high weapon's costs. However, they also have 8 point costs for Evade and Dodge (although, 12 for duck for some reason) which I guess makes up for this in a small way.

Eng's have a 15 in pistol. I think Eng's have been somewhat hard done by in terms of weaponry because they're next two cheapest weapon's skills are heavy weapons and grenade (both at 20), when there aren't that many of those in the game atm.

I guess the idea here is that both metas and engis have an innate weapon - their pets. Same for crats as well. So, the weapon's skills are more expensive to balance this out.

Docs have cheap pistol (16), but most other weaponry skills sit higher, although shotgun is 24. Evades are the same as NTs.

It's strange though. Doc's and NTs have similar attack and defense skill costs. But, most players would expect a doc to win in PvP. Why is this? Because there are other factors in play. Ie, doc heals.

And to be honest, IP costs become practically irrelevant at later levels. You can max all the important skills (nano skills, treatment, body dev, nano pool, speed, etc...) plus all evades and a gun of your choice and still have some change for other skills such as B&E or something.

Creala,

183 NT RK2.

[________________Xira]

IMHO NT's suck.

You do ok damage. That's all. that's it. You are 'just another damage source' and not a very good one at that. If I want damage, I ask for a solider or a MA.

IMO NT's suck. Nothing humble about it.

[______________Squick]

IMO it is not the NT class that totally sucks... It is the combination of the NT class, and most NTs not having a clue how to play...

I have grouped with a level 140 NT that had two leets for weapons... Here is where I knew problems were going to start...

He had no clue there was a general +12 int buff.

He was taking 30 sec to a full minute to mez adds, never remezzing if they broke the mez.

He was doing 1300 damage to mobs every 30 seconds or so.

*I* was doing more damage then he was... A significant amount more, and I am a doctor...

Then on the other hand, I have grouped with a very good NT that I became friends with... At level 130 he would mez mobs usually before they got a second hit on anyone, and he would keep a hawk's eye on them, and the second they broke that mez, he would remez the mob. While he was mezzing he would still be shooting the main mob with his v3 for 300-600 a shot, and then when he was not mezzing he would alternate in a nuke that did 2500ish damage every few seconds.

It was a struggle for him not to constantly have aggro... But when he would get aggro that could not be released, he would calm the main mob and then recast layers on himself to give time for the tank to regain aggro.

He was the model of a good player. I would pick him over any other non-necessary class (tank/doc) any day of the week.

Now if a designer came and asked me what was wrong with NTs, I would tell him to go watch that guy play, and then decide what would happen if all of his nukes were increased in power 400%.

He would be soloing QL200 missions at level 120 at a blindingly fast pace.

NTs are not the best profession at what they should be, "glass cannon" characters... Very frail, but more powerfull then anyone else. But people that don't like to group with NTs have been grouping with bad NTs...

I would say a good barometer is what HE they use... The good NT in this case was casting Boundless Humidity at level 135, the bad NT was casting Superior at level 140.

Squick

[_____________Biocide]

I hardly ever have problems getting into a group.
I usually have people send me tells when I walk into Newland.
They usually dont need me calming anymore, although I will.

I give out HE, but again, most of the time, it does not make much diff, I can buff them HE without being in the group.

I can maintain aggro during a good part of the kills if I want. And I do a very good percentage of the overall dmg.

[hhj]

Originally posted by Squick

I would say a good barometer is what HE they use... The good NT in this case was casting Boundless Humidity at level 135, the bad NT was casting Superior at level 140.

Squick

I dont wont to sound rude but you havent played a NT to high levels and dont know anything about the real downsides (besides the things "you belive to have seen")... And this topic has been discussed many times on the board and a lot of things have been backed up with numbers. Please keep your expertise of a class you dont iven know well for yourself.

Ps. Biocide out of curiosity what level is your NT?

[uburoi]

I'm on Squicks's side on this one. I see lots of high lvl N00bs

Vergil OT NT

[hhj]

Originally posted by Vergil
I'm on Squicks's side on this one. I see lots of high lvl N00bs

Vergil OT NT

Thats the side effect of the pre-crit nerf

I miss the old times...

[_________Irrellavent]

pffft

[_____________Biocide]

[i]

Ps. Biocide out of curiosity what level is your NT? [/B]

I am currently lvl 166.

BTW Vergil, I see high lvl noobs in all professions.

[Obstructed]

I'd like to give Naraya a little credit here. The professions that Squick compared us to have MUCH better defenses that he (in his infinite wisdom) over looked. The three pet classes have pets to hide behind, for their entire lives. Then Engi gets great AC buffs and the MP gets a heal pet. And Docs are the best healers in the game. We may have the same cost for body dev, but you got some massive buffs to increase yours.

So IP counting aside, that's where we stand. Lest we mention MA's who out damage us AND have heals.

And well played cahracters vs. "EverNewbs"? Well, someone who has been playing a long time and put some seriouse thought into being better is going to end up being better.

But here's my problem. A well played Doc out damages a horribly played NT, and sometimes a decently played NT. I would like to think that I am a well played NT. I team with 2 docs, frequently, that do _almost_ as much dmg as I do. As in I hold agro off them about 55% of the time. There is a very narrow margin there. I think that due to their far superior heals I should have far superior dmg. We carry similar guns, but I have nukes too and my nukes don't shoot fast enough to get in "far superior dmg" over the course or a 10 second fight. Especially if they are crit whores.


this has all been said before, yada yada yada....


thanx Squick for comming in and posting your theories on the innner thoughts of FC developers. I'm sure we have all learned and grown from that experience. I feel bigger already, I hope my girlfriend notices BTW, the rest of us don't consider the ql of the HE as a barometer of an NT's effectiveness, mostly only Docs do. And I've been using Superior HE for 40 lvls (I am 150 now) and I don't upgrade cuase I really don't value the current HEs that we have now. I would rather pump IP into defensive skills and/or not waste the time to go hunting for a crystal that I don't really need, cuase I have calms and nano pool treatment centers poor docs... alwasy getting the crappy HE from Anko....

[________Billy Talent]

Originally posted by Squick
IMO it is not the NT class that totally sucks... It is the combination of the NT class, and most NTs not having a clue how to play...

I have grouped with a level 140 NT that had two leets for weapons... Here is where I knew problems were going to start...

He had no clue there was a general +12 int buff.

He was taking 30 sec to a full minute to mez adds, never remezzing if they broke the mez.

He was doing 1300 damage to mobs every 30 seconds or so.

*I* was doing more damage then he was... A significant amount more, and I am a doctor...

Then on the other hand, I have grouped with a very good NT that I became friends with... At level 130 he would mez mobs usually before they got a second hit on anyone, and he would keep a hawk's eye on them, and the second they broke that mez, he would remez the mob. While he was mezzing he would still be shooting the main mob with his v3 for 300-600 a shot, and then when he was not mezzing he would alternate in a nuke that did 2500ish damage every few seconds.

It was a struggle for him not to constantly have aggro... But when he would get aggro that could not be released, he would calm the main mob and then recast layers on himself to give time for the tank to regain aggro.

He was the model of a good player. I would pick him over any other non-necessary class (tank/doc) any day of the week.

Now if a designer came and asked me what was wrong with NTs, I would tell him to go watch that guy play, and then decide what would happen if all of his nukes were increased in power 400%.

He would be soloing QL200 missions at level 120 at a blindingly fast pace.

NTs are not the best profession at what they should be, "glass cannon" characters... Very frail, but more powerfull then anyone else. But people that don't like to group with NTs have been grouping with bad NTs...

I would say a good barometer is what HE they use... The good NT in this case was casting Boundless Humidity at level 135, the bad NT was casting Superior at level 140.

Squick

While this may be true for some NTs, it is “not” true for me. I have played since day one as a NT. I have been around for all the bugs, all the headaches, and all the flaws NTs have had and still have. I have been playing my NT so much, I really don’t have any high secondary characters like other players do. I played the day this damn game launched. During that time I quit for 2 months because I was tired of the gimpyness. Anyway, what I can tell you is that we DO need help. You will have hot headed players who will insist that we don’t, but these are the same players who don’t PvP much and really don’t experience that much pain. The only exception to this would be Gunnandahalf. Yes he has a high title, yes he knows how to PvP, but he really don’t feel the nanomages flaws, he has NS2(rare) and he usually only PvPs when he knows he will win.He never fights professions that own. (smart)

For PvM, yeah we are not great but we really don’t fill in a distinctive role. We can calm, but our calm is mainly for personal use. For example, crats are better at calming because their calm is a AOE. So all they have to do is press a button and bam all mobs in the area are calmed. A NT has to pin point it’s target and hope it doesn’t resist. Squick, what you forgot to mention is that it is not all on the NT when a calm doesn’t work. Keep in mind there isn’t the letter “I” in team. The whole team contributes to a calm. For example, did the whole team agree on one target? Is there a member shooting at a mob a NT is trying to calm? How high is the mobs resistance? Are reflect shields uncalming the mobs? Is a Doc running a DoT that also uncalms a mob. Is the NT getting bombarded by hits that they really can’t focus on calming?

Next time you bash NTs for sucky calming keep these things in mind. Another thing, just because Player A is using leets and Player B is using a X-3 it doesn’t classify them as a newb. Leets play no role in calming as well as a X-3 rifle. Just because player A doesn’t use boundless and Player B does it doesn’t classify them as a newb. Maybe player B is a alt with 100mil credits, while Player A doesn’t gip people by charging people millions for ql 1 items.


I am 196 and my lvl 200 is why over due. I should have been lvl 200 back when Gun and Kink turned 200, but why rush? Will lvl 200 help me take out a RM Bully? Not really, I will be as gimped as lvl 196. So I really don’t focus on power lvling. I do solo a lot and I can tell you I hate it. I do PvP a lot and I can tell you I hate it. Yes I will moan until a clear role is placed for us.

Vegan's analysis on our role - The secondary calmer, secondary nano programmer, secondary dmg dealer with the crappiest defense.

[Shandrahs]

Originally posted by Vegan
Yes I will moan until a clear role is placed for us.

Amen to that!!!

[________Garzu-perman]

Of course NTs can get teams, you got friends too... if not, then its just to fill the team.

I know this, its always like that when we invite NTs, I always ask them a couple of questions about calms and aggro to see if they are any good NTs.

A good NT knows the drill about calming when getting aggro, a good NT will get alot of aggro, not becuase of the damage, but becuase nukes, no matter which (could be ice flechette) pulls alot of aggro.

Getting aggro does not mean you are doing alot of damage.

Its been a few cool NTs, such as Armageodon, Azdalen and a few others that I would call good, the circumstances taken into the consideration. (seem to be cool rl ppl too).


But fact is that NTs is not wanted for anything except calms and HE, if you think its your damage, you are living on a lie.

If the team needs a calmer, they will always prefer the crat, he got xp buff too, and motivational speeches, unless ppl like me convince them we really need HE in the team.

[______________Squick]

Originally posted by Vegan


For PvM, yeah we are not great but we really don’t fill in a distinctive role. We can calm, but our calm is mainly for personal use. For example, crats are better at calming because their calm is a AOE. So all they have to do is press a button and bam all mobs in the area are calmed. A NT has to pin point it’s target and hope it doesn’t resist. Squick, what you forgot to mention is that it is not all on the NT when a calm doesn’t work. Keep in mind there isn’t the letter “I” in team. The whole team contributes to a calm. For example, did the whole team agree on one target? Is there a member shooting at a mob a NT is trying to calm? How high is the mobs resistance? Are reflect shields uncalming the mobs? Is a Doc running a DoT that also uncalms a mob. Is the NT getting bombarded by hits that they really can’t focus on calming?

Next time you bash NTs for sucky calming keep these things in mind. Another thing, just because Player A is using leets and Player B is using a X-3 it doesn’t classify them as a newb. Leets play no role in calming as well as a X-3 rifle. Just because player A doesn’t use boundless and Player B does it doesn’t classify them as a newb. Maybe player B is a alt with 100mil credits, while Player A doesn’t gip people by charging people millions for ql 1 items.

In both cases the teams were perfect, no one ever attacked any mobs the tank did not, all reflect shields/damage shields/bracers were taken off as requested. (by me)

The "bad" NT had to be asked FIVE times for a buff until finally the tank stopped and told the NT everyone was calling for him to buff people. The "bad NT" also did not know about the +12 int buff, I am not joking about that, he asked if anyone had an int buff, he only needed 8 points, we told him there was none other then the general buff, he asked what we were talking about. His nukes were lower then the "good NT," you can tell when a mob is calmed. It got so bad that the adv was doing the majority of calming second mobs because the NT would not.

If you run into a level 150 doc that has QL50 armor on, two leets, no evades, heals of 400 a shot, and then starts to complain about how docs can not solo and how gimped they are, are you going to say, "yeah, I can see, docs have bad heals, can not do damage, so they must be gimped, lets make them heal for four times more?" No, because that would mean I can heal for 4,500 a shot, a bit unbalancing ehh? Well that is just like people saying NTs suck based on grouping with NTs that do suck, then asking for their damage to be increased four fold.

This thread was started by someone saying NTs are only wanted in groups for their HE and Calms. I am saying that a well played NT, twinked or not, I don't care, by level 140 you can calm your way though QL200 missions and money should not be a problem, is a better addition to teams then another doctor or a secondary damage dealer like a fixer. So for everyone that thinks I am trying to be the end-all know it all of NTs, I am not, I am telling NTs what non-NTs think of them.

Now if you look back at the last two replies I made, I did say that NTs are not all right and all ok, I envision the NT to be the glass-cannon character, able to deal significantly more damage then anyone else, but dies quickly. In my opinion it would be a step backwards to give the NT more defensive nanos instead of damage boosting abilities...

For example, instead of Enfraams, which sucks anyways, I would have figured a nano that doubled all damage you take, but in return doubled your damage output would have been more inline with the idea of the NT.

But if everyone thought NTs were total gimps you would never see them, roughly 75% of my teams have a NT in them. Before 14.4 about 5% of my teams would have an adv or fixer. I have not grouped with a trader since 14.4 except for one time when it was a guild-group at a dungeon.

So instead of aggervating yourselves thinking you are total gimps and unable to play until FC drops this major fix everyone thinks is coming, take a different look at things, you are still wanted in teams.

Squick

[________Garzu-perman]

Originally posted by Squick
So do you believe what you actually type, or just presume no one is going to check up on you?


No you do not, MP gets that title, and the doc has the same offensive costs as you, here are the two cheapest attack skills:

- NT -

Pistol - 16
Grenade - 24

- MP -

Pistol - 24
2he - 25

- Doctor -
Pistol - 16
1hb - 24

Oi, MP has more expensive, so that means alot I guess, you obviously didnt get the point then...

Originally posted by Squick
No you do not, Engineer gets that title, and the doc has the same defensive costs as you:

- NT -
Evade - 32
Dodge - 24

- Engineer -
Evade - 40
Dodge - 25

- Doc -
Evade - 32
Dodge - 24

Oh, shoot, 2nd worst again, damn NTs, you liars.

Originally posted by Squick

Nope, NT, MP, Crat, and Engineer all have the same costing Body Dev skill.

Can you please explain how Naraya said wrong here? NTs DO have the most expensive life skills. No one has more expensive = the most expensive.


All in all its 2 second worst, and 1 worst, damn man, you truely proved her wrong didnt you?

For the rest of us, who got Narayas post and understood what she was trying to say, we move on, and dont bother with stupid picking and trolling liek Squick attempts to do.

Originally posted by Squick
NTs may need a tweak when it comes to damage, but I have heard people claiming stuff like what you said, and then using that to justify increasing the damage of nukes by up to 400% across the board... Yeah...

What do you think the designers at Funcom would do if they saw a totally uninformed post like yours? Do you think they would sit down and do any more research after they see you do not check your own research? Doubtfull... They will just chalk it up to, "Well, he was wrong about this, why would he be right about anything else?" If you want the NT class helped, don't post uninformed posts.

Squick

Oh, listen, we got a 42 NT here. Its funny how you "pick" narayas post to pieces... cause you managed to find that ONE other profession actually had worse defenses, another prof worse weapon skills.


Anyways, you numbers are wrong, the highest possible base ip cost of any skill is 25.... So you thought you could pull that out of your ass with no one checking up on you?

Get your own facts straight.