MP Wishlist: Creation Bow

[Xtremtech]

Heya All,

I'm going to kick this one off with a wholesale theft of Autocrat/Seraph's idea mentioned in another thread:

Name Seraph's Fire [NODROP]
Description
This special bow is created through the solidification of matter by a skilled meta-physicist. The flaming bolts fired from this weapon are derived from incendiary semi-physical manifestations of the meta-physicist's anger. Thus no ammunition is needed however each shot drains the wielder of nano energy.
Type weapon
Slot left hand
QL 200
Value 1
Equip time 5 s
Attack time 6.5 s
Recharge time 1.0 s
Range 20 m
Init skill nano init
Clip none
Damage 95-485 (295) - fire ac
Defense skills
duck explosives 100

Attack skills:
time and space 80
bow 20

Requirements
time and space >= 1045
bow >= 705
fling shot >= 485
aimed shot >= 485

Effects:
modify self nanopool -80


And some questions to get discussion on its way:

• 1) Equip Time 5 seconds. Should this be faster?
  
  2) NanoC-Init as the init. Does this make sense? Should the bow not use Phys Init since the creation sticks use Melee Init. It's likely that we're going to have to dedicate some skill points to be able to get a decently damaging weapon and NanoC-Init is already in our core template.
  
  3) Damage 95-485 (295) - fire ac. How does this compare with other bows? Is the damage pitched so that it remains a secondary 'string in our bow' rather than overpowering our other main damage tools (Nukes/Pets). Keep in mind here - with just the required skills for casting we would have a 977 attack rating making the damage profile more like: 327-1669 (1015) leading to an average crit of 2685.
  
  4) Nanocost: 80 per shot. Would this be enough or too much? What sort of relationship should the nanocost have to the damage done?
  
  5) Specials: Fling and Aimed Shot. Is two specials too much? What sort of recharge time would we want to see on the specials? What sort of damage range would these specials do? How would this affect the overall damage profile?
  
  6) Nano Line or one off. Should this be a one off for high level MPs? Or should there be a range of 4 bows (as for the 1HB/2HB creations)? What would the stats of the other 3 look like?
  
  7) No buff qualities. Would we want to have some buff built into the bow? Would we want the bow to buff nano-pool/nanocost at lower QLs and do less damage - then higher damage at higher levels but much smaller buffs?

Just trying to kick off the discussion.

X

[Raiko]

Ok, my thoughts on what you have here :

2. NanoC Init. as the init
Hehe, thats so cheeky - cant see it happening myself. It would have to fall in with the other bows I think and use phys init. Similarly duck explosives as a defense skill... hehe, dodge ranged would be more reasonable.

3. Damage.
I think you have the damage on the generous side too, especially since its fire ac. 95-295 would be more like it I think.

4. Nano Cost.
80 sounds about right to me, 100 tops.

5. Specials.
Again with the cheek

Maybe fling. Maybe.

6. Nano line.
I guess a line would be best. Id love it if getting the nano crystal for this was part of a quest similar in nature to the fixer quest, but with a MP twist naturally.

7. Buff qualities.
Unless the damage was toned down considerably Id say not. Perhaps a minor nano cost penalty?

[Xtremtech]

The idea of balancing damage out with a negative buff: a nanocost penalty hadn't occured to me. What does everybody else think?

As to the specials: Looking at existing bows, it's certainly the case that there are two main types of specials:

1) Aimed Shot and Fling Shot

2) Aimed Shot only

There's also a couple of somewhat exotic bows that have more specials. I suspect the appropriate selection for a single special would be Aimed Shot rather than Fling.

I'm of the opinion that the damage might be somewhat high too, especially given the NanoC-Init dependence suggested. Perhaps a slightly faster attack time and phys init basis would be enough? We should probably also keep in mind that since we have no clip, we'd get a speed benefit from not having to reload.

Taking Urshu's suggestions I've reduced damage somewhat (but not as far as Urshu suggested). I've also adjusted speeds to take into account the init change producing:

Equip time: 5 s
Attack time: 4.5 s
Recharge time: 2.5 s
Range: 20 m
Init skill: Phys Init
Clip: none
Damage: 95-395 (295) - fire ac
Defense skills Dodge Ranged 100

Attack skills:
time and space 80
bow 20

Requirements to Wear
bow >= 705
aimed shot >= 485

Effects:
modify self nanopool -80


This would give an overall damage profile with AR based upon the required skills for casting of: 327-1360 (1015). Given a Phys Init of 750, which would be a reasonable one for a high level bow MP, the speed should be around 3.25/1.0 which seems reasonable.

Putting this through the AntiG Caclulator based on Target AC 3000 and full agg with a 15% crit chance I get the following result:

• Your critical hit will be 1360 points.
  Your normal hits will maybe vary between 327 and 1360 points.
  Over 10 seconds you would maybe do an average of 2304 points of damage. (2.13 normal, 0.38 critical hits)

It doesn't look too over- or underpowered to me. What does everybody else think?

X

[______________KALZEN]

Great idea love it, one question can a non nanomage mp say like me a trox get to 1045 T&S? im not at home so have not had the time to work it out . But great idea as is the Summon Armor. Keep up the good work folks.

[Xtremtech]

I think a trox could get this bow.

I remember a while back the Profs team asked whether all professions could self cast all of their nanos by level 200. The question wasn't - given a normal set of implants - it was just: could an MP theoretically cast all of the nanos by level 200.

I asked the question here and seem to remember that the answer came back as a yes - which would mean that Asmodian at 1037 BM/MC/TS would have been self castable by an Atrox MP (including using item buffs). I didn't do the calculation myself though.

Since you ask though a level 200 Trox MP with maxed abilities and fully imped TS can reach 913 TS unbuffed. Add expertise, mochams and Odins and you're waaaay over the requirement.

X

[talornin]

Might be an idea to have the bow drain HP instead of Nano. since the projectiles are made from the body. Not much, but enough that once in a while one woul have to get healed.

Talornin

[Alpherah]

Wouldnt suit the Nanomage breed very much if it drained hp...

Maybe 2 versions of a creation bow.. one that drained Nano(Nanomage/opifex maybe), and one that drains HP (for atrox/Solitus) ?

[Xtremtech]

Wouldnt suit the Nanomage breed very much if it drained hp...

Having died a few times in a huge group at the Obediency Instructor camp last night (how does a lil ole nano MP like me get agg in a group of mega damage dealers even when not using mindquake so as not to taunt with debuffs.....? ), I can safely say that an HP drain would not be a good idea for us nanomages.

Still I'm not sure about Poison's idea either. Personally, I tend to the idea that the Nanomage should be the prime breed for the MP and that new MP nanos should favour that breed if possible. At the same time I can see that already existing Atrox and Solitus MPs shouldn't be left out.

Still - both solitus and atrox get benefits of their own in larger hitpoints, better damage from normal weapons (due to higher abilities in Str, Agi and Sta for example) and better armour through much of their life. Atroxes get exclusive access to certain weapons too... It's part of the choice of those that went for a non-recommended breed that they accept nanopool limitations in trade for these other benefits.... and as others often point out when extolling the virtues of Solitus in particular - their nanopool isn't very much smaller than a nanomage's.

In addition of course, all breeds still have the excellent nanocost reduction buffs which together with a good CPU upgrade would reduce the cost considerably.

I think I'd be more open to a slight drop in the nanocost in order to better things for Sol/Trox MPs (but not much) than to a separate range of bows.

X

[______________KALZEN]

that i will be able to cast this bow as a trox but i am still a low lvl character, so are you putting forward lower ql versions of this bow as well, as all the other creation weps come in differant ql's
it would be nice if this did to. Also i do not like the suggestion that it takes hp to use it, i never like anything that would take hp to use, but useing a certain amout of nano for every shot seems agood idea for all MP races, nanomages have a more nano than sol or Trox but i still have lots so no prob, plus useing hp to use would be like having a Dot on u which would only aid whoever u are fighting.

[Xtremtech]

If everybody's reasonably OK with the description above, I'll do some work later today to extend the range down the QLs to make a range of 4 creation bows like we have for the other creation weapons.

Question here: Do we want damage to drop as the QL goes down and maybe a nano based benefit or too to come in? Nano benefits are probably generally of more use at the lower levels than weapons damage.

If so - which benefits?

X

[______________KALZEN]

Well i would like to have a ncu benefit from these bows that is prob my main problem at the moment, and im sure im not alone at low lvls.

Also a Hp increase on the lowest bows might help the lower nanomages somewhat.

A nano skill buff would always be welcome.

And i also asume that FC will req lower damage on lower ql ones
like on every other wep choice.

[Xtremtech]

I've been a bit busy sorting out some stuff on the professionals board and haven't got round to extending the line down today. I'm pretty tired as is and don't hink I'll get to it. Anyone should feel free to suggest there own extensions.

Wallis, yup the damage would come down at lower QLs anyway. The thing is... it would have to come down even more if the bows got buffs added to them. You don't get something for nothing in this game!

My overall feeling is that the bow should be designed as a plain damage dealer in all QLs and not get buff benefits. The 1HB and 2HB creations already have buff benefits and the idea of adding a ranged weapon to the MP toolset is that one can stand back and do damage with it. If we want buff benefits at lower levels we can simply wield the 1HB/2HB ones from range and get the benefits.

On the whole then, my vote would got to extending the range down without debuffs but maintaining a decent damage level. This way, MPs at a lower level would have a choice between 1HB/2HB for buffs and Bow for decent damage at range.

X

[____________Mindfire]

1) I think the equip time of 5 seconds would be fine... it's not like we'd be taking it off and putting other things on for specials... that's a soldiers job, let them do it.

2) NanoC-Init I think would be good, especially since we're shooting nano at the mobs instead of normal arrows. The bow would pretty much be acting as a catalyst between our nano and the mobs. Like casting nukes from an item. So I think NanoC-Init would work.

3) The damage looks good, especially when you factor in the boost with a higher AR.

4) The nano cost per shot might be just a teensy bit low... I mean at level 100 you have what... 3000+ nano? 80 per shot would give a level 100 person 37.5 shots, from a ql 180+ bow, from a bow of a comparable level you'd get even more. At level 180+ you'd have over 6000 nanopool. That would be over 70 shots without having to "reload." But then again we have other things to use nano on so maybe 80 would be a good amount. Factor in pet buffs, nukes, NSD/CoC. Yeah ok 80 looks reasonable.

5) Specials.... maybe just aimed shot if we have to have one. Wouldn't really be useful in PvM (unless you wanted to boost concealment) but in PvP I could see it's usefulness. How many MP's would be interested in dumping IP into a dark blue special skill that would only be used in special situations? Maybe not include a special attack on the lower versions of the bow?

6) I think there should definately be a nano line for this. Just one summoned bow with a high level req doesn't strike me as a good idea... especially since most MP's will never advance a character far enough to use the thing.

7) I don't think there should be any kind of extra buffs attached to the bows... these are meant to be weapons so we can do extra damage, right? We have plenty of buffs, we need damage. I wouldn't want to sacrifice damage dealing capabilities for that.



OK, now I have a couple of questions about this....

1) Will our nano reducers have any effect on how much "ammo" each shot would take? Like if we had Mocham's Neural Interface Web running, would each shot take 61 nano instead of 80?

2) If we had a Humidity Extractor running, we'd never run out of "ammo." Boundless HE recharges 191 nano every 15 seconds. the attack speed on the bow is 5.6 with a 1.0 second recharge. 500-600 init = a 1 second reducuction, right? at 1200 init we'd be at 3.6/1.0 per shot. One shot every 4.6 seconds, (assuming MNIW would work as normal) 61 nano per shot. in 15 seconds that would give 3 shots, totalling 183 nano. Then the HE ticks off and we get 191 back. So at higher levels where MP's choose not to even bother with their pets, they could throw on this bow and just go nonstop until the HE runs out. Is that right?

3) Another item on the MP Wishlist is Summoned Body Armor. This armor could divert some damage from life to nano. How would these interact? I fear that with all the new idea's being thrown around and new ways for nanomages to get better usage from their huge nanopool, that other MP's with lower nanopools (solitus/atrox) might want something to increase their nanopool as it is already small. Then they'll either get a larger nanopool and make nanomages completely obsolete, or they won't get it and they'll hate nanomages forever and there will be a huge civil war between the "meta" (nanomage)MPs and the "physical" (solitus/atrox)MPs in which all of our collective emotional energies will combine and create a huge demon manifestation thing that will destroy the planet!!! So anyways, how will the new items that emphasize nanopool usage interact?

4) How about increasing the range on that thing a little? Not really too important, I just like to be as far away as possible.

[Xtremtech]

maybe just aimed shot if we have to have one. Wouldn't really be useful in PvM (unless you wanted to boost concealment) but in PvP I could see it's usefulness.

Having picked up a bow as part of my MA stuff - I can verify that Aimed Shot does work quite well in PvM. It's a skill you learn to get the AS off without sneaking (yes you can do it without sneaking) and so you don't need to raise Concealment to make it work.

With regard to nanoreducers I'd be happy enough to see the nanocost per shot go up to 100 and allow the nano-reducers to have an effect.

2) If we had a Humidity Extractor running, we'd never run out of "ammo."

If that was all that we were doing with our nano yup. But, as you point out, we'll be nuking and cursing and Evoking and debuffing (PvP) etc too, so in the long run the HE will really be supporting all of our nano usage including the bow's part of it.

X

[Autocratt]

Wow, Xtremtech good thread (Geez I never check the boards on weekends and boom! I see this, LOL)

I want everyone to consider a few things. In PvP the general trend is to fight on full defense. So looking at a 4.5/2.5 base ROF on phys init would suck pretty bad at 0% agg/def. (Damn this is worse than Hunter/Sniper Crossbow ROF and they do 1-630(260) - poison AC!) There is no TIM scope equivalent for phys init. And a 2.5 recharge means your special would be pretty damn slow to refresh. This might wind up worse than a Manex December which FC designed to do 1-750(100) with 3.5/3.5 ROF, LOL! So either the ROF should be faster or it does even more damage. Agreed?

Digging into my notes, I based Seraph's Fire on the Premium Reet-Tech Junior Urban Crossbow BUT BEFORE 14.6 changed it to this:
http://64.106.154.149/showitem.asp?AOID=125061

The funny thing is that now, the new Premium Reet-Tech Junior Urban Crossbow is even closer to Seraph's Fire LOL. After 14.6 it became a 2 skill wep which does MORE damage; 5-450 (350) Projectile AC. And there is the PvP crit nerf.

Frankly, if we got a Creation version of the Premium Reet-Tech Junior Urban Crossbow unchanged except for the TS/Bow 80/20 Attack Skills, Fire damage and phys init I might be still playing my MP now!

But there are other things to consider. Take the MA whom for FC changed bows to phys init to allow rooted MA's to use bows but not have to invest in another skill. Or even the Premium Reet-Tech Junior Urban Crossbow which was changed to rifle/bow while retaining ranged init so agents don't have to lose their rifle skill or change their init skills. Hmmmmm, why should we need to invest in another init skill either?

So that is why I advocated nano init as an innovative way to handle this issue. Or, in the very least, keep our creation bows MELEE INIT so you can still use the Creation weps (thinking one day we might actually get useful Creation weps like a 2HE one, etc. Sorry Xtrem, I know you use MA but we gotta think ahead!)

With nano init, yes it is possible to get us down to 1/1 ROF with a QL 200 Recompiler on 0% agg/def. Thus why I chose 6.5 Attack Rate, at 1200 nano init we get it down to 1/1. And I want something different like Fire damage and nano ammo to make it... well cool to use. (Yes, I think nanoreducers should also reduce the cost of the bow's ammo.)

Do I think the damage in Seraph's Fire is too much? Yes or no depending on what ROF or specials refresh we can achieve. Considering the alternative weapons - Urban Crossbow, Manex, MCS, etc. Seraph's Fire as is is competitive.

But let's see what else is worthwhile. Aimed Shot vs. Fling Shot - Aimed Shot by a mile, if we can only have one special. High normal, high crit, high minimum, high ROF, high special refresh? Well as FC has demonstrated, they will tolerate all these types: Ithaca, Manex, MCS, etc. for PvP and anything goes for PvM. A high ROF will drain our nano quickly. A MCS like 3.0/1.0 wep should allow us to have a wep with 2 specials.

As for a line of Creation Bows, I think maybe broadening out by damage type would be interesting:

Zylina's Retort - Cold AC
Xtremtech's Fist - Melee AC
p0is0n's Dart - well duh, Poison AC

(/me chuckles)

So Xtrem and MP's I think we better think this one very carefully through.

P.S. Since this bow is firing bolts of fire, I think Burst is a viable special too. Look at the soldier's Division 9: 2.6/1.4 ROF, 2 attack skills, 1-460 (250) -- Energy AC, Burst special, plus bonuses. A Creation Bow like that is good for me!

[Echoside]

I believe that mp's should be the master of summons. It only makes sense that we could summon more than just sticks and shields(and of course pets). And I love this idea of summon bow alot, you guys did some good research on this. I just hope we get to see it ingame in my lifetime.

[Xtremtech]

Hey Seraph,

We need to face up to a few facts. There's a reason why FC gives us such expensive weapons skills. They are of the opinion that with our attack pets (meatball in particular) and our nukes we have a pretty good damage profile already. With the addition of the evocation with an AMS buff that raises damage and speed of hit in addition to the quoted damage buff - they're not entirely wrong here. We can do really good consistent damage over time.

We can say right now that the attack pet pathing is so attrocious that it should be left out of the equation - but if they introduce high damage bows now and pet pathing gets reasonably fixed down the line - then we'd be overpowered but they wouldn't be able to take the bows out of the game. They aren't going to put something in the game based on an issue that they are planning to fix. They would spend the resource time first on fixing the issue - then look at new items.

Additionally, FC designed this game so that the hostile nano-casting and weapons bars interact with each other to an extent. You can't chain-nuke and use a weapon at full speed at the same time. FC will not be introducing a weapon for the MPs that is prioritised over our nukes/casting. Our core damage should come from our nukes and pets and only be supplemented by weapons damage not replaced by weapons damage.

Basically, FC are not going to put an MP weapon into the game that will significantly increase our damage ouput compared to what we can achieve with normal weapons now. And if we want to pick up normal weapons to add damage, then FC have decided to make it extremely costly in terms of IP points in order to discourage it and to ensure that we don't become a primary weapons user rather than a primary nuker/pet user.

Having said all that then:

1) FC are highly unlikely to go for NanoC-Init as a weapons speed. It's a green skill and they just won't let us use it to add weapons damage.

2) FC are highly unlikely to let us exceed the sorts of damage patterns that we can presently get with secondary weapons based on dark blue skills because they really want us to prioritise nukes and pets over any secondary damage.

3) Since we are already getting a considerable increase in attack rating via the 80%TS/20% Bow attack skills - our damage multiplier is going to be considerably higher than for other weapons we might pick up and so will our hit success rate. So we need to be careful about making the damage too high.

So to do a comparison:

If I take a 5-450(350) bow and plug in phys init of 750 and Attack Rating of 800 (which we can now reasonably achieve) and the 4.5/2.5 speed that Urshu suggested then on the AntiG calculator at 100 aggdef I'd get an average: 2351 damage every 10 seconds. (1881 at 50 aggdef)

If I do the same with an init of 1200 and Attack Rating of 1000 (both easily reached with NanoC-Init and 80%TS attack skills) I'd get an average: 3377 damage every 10 seconds. (2582 at 50 aggdef)

It's almost half as much again!

Taking the stats for an existing bow and then making it NanoC-Init based, 0 clip and 80%TS attack rating and giving it a speed that we get to 1/1 at full def is just simply asking for too much of a good thing I fear.

I'm honestly not asking for phys init because I'm an MA user (though it would obvioiusly benefit me ). I'm asking for phys init because that's the init that bows have in this game now. Plain and simple.

Putting the proposal above - 95-395(295) and 4.5/2.5 into the AntiG calculator based on 1000 AR (cos of 80%TS) and 750 init (based on phys init) then we'd get an average: 2729 damage per 10 seconds. (2183 at 50 aggdef)

This is comparable to the sort of damage we might expect to get out of a decent normal bow and because of the extra attack rating we'd probably get a slightly better hit rate against higher level mobs with good evades.

Doesn't this sound OK to you without being too overpowering?

X

[Autocratt]

Valid points Xtrem, however the key question is would I ever want to use this wep for PvP. Ask Psiraven for a more experienced answer but I think it would be no as listed. An X-3/Caterwaul rifle buffed with UA, a MCS relying on Burst refreshes alone, Manex December, a v3 with Extreme Prejudice/Pistol mastery & expertise (yes they all stack for +180), Ithaca or even Creation nanoreducers are better options IMHO. Frankly a Junior Urban crossbow with TIM scope and UA is better at 2.5/2.3 ROF and 2 specials. (I believe Pistol grants us the highest AMS even over Creations.)

Remember, if you don't have a high attack rating then you rely on fast recharging specials (used to be crits too but that is gone.) Besides bad pet pathing our pets are worthless in NW with all the rooting and I definitely do not want to see my Demon charmed!

Basically I don't want us to do an FC, you know make something that no one winds up using

Here's suggestion, go for a normal like bow with Phys Init, Aimed Shot 4.0/2.0 ROF and does 1-630(260) Fire AC just like the KIWD Sniper Crossbow stats but with at least a clip of 12 or use no clip with nano ammo.

[Skebet]

I am not an expert at all on weapon mechanics, but I did want to qualitatively endorse Seraph's point of view here. The key question *has* to be: does this new weapon provide a *compelling* reason to switch? If the answer is no, then there is no point beyond providing a "cool" cosmetic alternative.

X, you seem to think that FC will not give us a creation weapon that increases our damage output. If that is true, then what's the point? As Seraph points out, why would we bother wasting our time on a new weapon that no one will use?

To me, at least, this is only worth doing if it does, in fact, increase our damage output. Sitting around waiting for the mythical pathing fix does not seem like an option. I am just starting to understand how futile high level MPs can feel not only in pvp but also in high level pvm.

thanks for the hard work, all

amis

[Xtremtech]

Seraph,

I see the point... but.... (you knew that was coming didn't you?) Sorry for the long post guys but I feel very strongly about this and it's very impotant to the overall discussion.

There'll always be a better weapon. There always is.

Since we're never going to be given a "Bootleg Beamers and Bolts" nano that conjures up a ranged weapon from a selection that changes over time, then we're unlikely to see an MP creation weapon that is the best choice. Here's how it works:

• 6 months ago you'd have been asking for a high critting weapon. MPs used to do wild damage with shotties and everybody had one.
  
  Then a few months ago a few things got changed and then it was AlphaStrike weapons with loads of specials.
  
  Some still hung onto crit weapons but then the scopes were nerfed and the crits have just been nerfed....
  
  Who knows... maybe with the engineer specials buffs it'll soon become good basic damage weapons with a good speed... there was a phase back there just after shotties went out of vogue that good base damage weapons were the rage...
  
  Or maybe down the line they'll make specials damage depend upon the level of skill in the special... then weapons with 3 or 4 specials will become incredibly expensive for MPs to wield and we'd be stuck with creation weapons that didn't do damage worth squat unless we pumped IP into 3 or 4 of the most expensive weapons skills in our template...
  
  Whatever happens in the future you know that any creation line of weapons will not be changed and altered to fit the new craze and there's be screams and cries of "we want light blue specials for our creation bows... why have you made this MP tool cast from an MP nano so useless?".
  
  And let's say that this super-crossbow of Seraph's is built... unless it outdamages a Manex or an X3 - then the MPs that focus so highly on weapons damage will still be running around in one of those - or whatever next months uber-weapon is.

Now there are also many MPs out there still who do things the way FC thinks it should be done. We concentrate on our pets damage and on our nukes damage. In PvP we concentrate on our debuffs and stuns and nuking. Read back through the Notum Wars sticky thread and you'll find that most posters there felt that this should be their role - attack pet on tower, heal on a tank, debuff, stun and nuke - and that they add a little extra damage too with their weapons....

The weapon is and should remain a secondary or even tertiary tool for us. Yes there will always be MPs who go to the hassle of strapping on a big gun, spending the IP and blasting away. More power to them I say... it's amazing what you can get out of the MP template.... but I'm not about to advocate building a big gun into the core MP toolset!

Take the thing I mentioned above of ending up with cries of "we want light blue specials for our creation bows... ".

We already have this often enough for the 1HB and 2HB creations and some even want light blue melee init too. We're not going to get this. If we did we'd become a weapons class and the whole profession would have to be re-defined.

For these creations to be well implemented they should rely upon the cheapest of our skills. They should give us the chance of doing reasonable secondary damage with a truly MP weapon. They should be ranged to fit with the most common MP playstyle. They should allow us a reasonable Attack Rating so that they hit reasonably often.

They don't need to be (nor should they be) the best weapons option available for the MP. They just need to be good enough that you don't feel silly using them. They need to be good enough that they add to our pet and nuke damage and don't overpower them or become more important than them. We've already bowed a little to the pressure by adding Aimed Shot.... adding another special or two would just land us in trouble down the line.

Besides bad pet pathing our pets are worthless in NW with all the rooting and I definitely do not want to see my Demon charmed!

So we fix pet pathing, buy/find the root breaking nanos and concentrate some of our time making our primary MP damage tools worthwhile etc... Roots/Mezzes/fears etc all got level checks recently and their casters are complaining that it's hard to land them on level 200 mobs. The Caco is also level 200.

Dealing with this and working out the best way to play with the pets is the core part of what being an MP is.

It's really not acceptable to say: Look our main MP tools aren't too effective - let's drop them all and ask for things not in our toolset that are as good as everyboy else's. If you ever get to the point where you're picking up a big high damage weapon because you've given up on your pets/nukes... then the pets/nukes need fixing... not your weapons skills.

X, you seem to think that FC will not give us a creation weapon that increases our damage output. If that is true, then what's the point? As Seraph points out, why would we bother wasting our time on a new weapon that no one will use?

No that isn't true. Our present damage output from our MP specific tools would be from the 1HB creations and 2HB creations which in terms of damage over time do 1/10th or less damage than the bow suggested above. In addition, they are melee weapons which is not a style that many MPs choose to play at all.

We're asking for good consistent comparable damage here. If I took the Professional Pow Bow QL180 and plugged 800 AR and 750 init into it - I get 2597 damage every 10 seconds. This is what an MP could just about achieve right now. It's 130 less damage per second than we got from the above calculation for the proposed bow. The Pow Bow is a perfectly good weapon used by many players, yet out proposed Creation Bow would beat it in our hands. Add to this that we'd hit more often due to our higher attack rating and we have a winner.

MP's may need more damage in PvP, but the way to go there would be more likely to be through higher QL nukes at the top of the line (already in the wishlist) or through adding damage to the attack pet which we recently got with the evocations. If we want to make the evocations more effective in mass PvP we ask for a pet targetting hotkey or the buff to autocast on the pet or that the AMS buff be rolled into an instill type buff - we don't say "Ahhh forget the pet let's ask for a good gun".

MP's may need more of a role in mass PvP... but this should be through better debuffs, a mez pet that mezzes and has an init debuff (wishlist thread running), a stun that includes a damage component (coming soon to a wishlist near you), an Area of Effect debuff or an area effect buff, a heal pet that heals the team (wishlist thread running) or whatever it may be that can be done in our core toolset.

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