QB / EQB / P-rod / Staff-Pipe test (finally)

[Deng]

Finally got the testing done on these.
Thanks to all the Enforcers and meatshields on Rimor who had the patience to join in on the test.

The idea is to see how the weapons work in PVP as well as in PVM and to give some feedback to the ones wondering where to aim at higher levels.

I regret that I haven't been able to test out Slayer claw, Mantis scissors and other 1HE stuff, but I was forced to IPR these away to function in NW as a fighter. (believe me.. I've walked around with *no* parry/Nanoresist/riposte/nanoskills not maxed etc. for a while to keep wep skills at max)

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Queen Blade
This weapon requires level 161 and is at that time, aside from Pipe/staff the most powerful weapon you can use in botth PVM and PVP. The real power both PVM and PVP speaking is during the FoB period. Using a QB requires you to have a maximized Fast attack (which is easy to implant) and isn't too heavy on the nanoskills as you start capping TL5.
Damage goes from roughly 1900-5000 at an AR of 1600. Sugest you max implant Melee init and skip those evades in feet.

This weapon is aquirable from the Mantis queen in the Smugglers den. Takes a decent team with a CH'er to kill.

Enhanced Queen Blade
The Enhanced Queen blade is pretty simmilar to the QB. However, it's the strongest Melee PVP weapon at the moment. As with the QB, a Scope isn't needed as it's based on a *high* base damage. Some enforcers have wasted IP's on getting the ql 197 2HE buff. This is overkill IMO. The EQB comes close to hitting 1/1 during FOb period. Has 1.2 sec lower recharge than the QB and much higher maxdamage which makes it *deadly*. maxing your dimach and brawl is a good thing if you can afford it. This weapon requires Level 185. To get this, you need a Queen blade + a Diomondine Matrix Mesh aquired from the Diomondine Trainee (drops sometimes) or the Diomondine soldier (Drops every time) at "Fort" on doves in EFP.

Punishment Rod
This weapon is, as the QB and the EQB also slow and not crit reliant. Its base damage is much like the QB, but hits faster. It has Fast attack (compared to the Brawl/dimach on EQB/QB's) which reloads pretty slow. However as a first strike you can do over 10K damage in PVM with challenger running. Also a deadly wep during FoB/Rage but not challenging the EQB. would put it slightly above the normal QB. It is aquired from the "Obediency Enforcer", also in EFP. You need level 185 to equip.

Alloy staff / Pipe - Combo

This combination came as an answer to the Beams for Solitus I reckon and has proven to do a *lot* of damage in PVM, but is reliant on little reflect and crits in PVP. Both runnable as mission rewards and has no level requirement. This is a cheap, but good combo for anyone. In PVM, this is the most "exciting" weapon type as you have sneak and high speed. I used these with a 14% scope for some time and before the Critnerf in PVP, I even sunk some EOT'ers when I got critsneak in. Reccomended if you feel hitting every 7 second is booring. Should have a 8% VE or LLTS at least before equipping on TL5+ IMO.

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PVP testing.

EQB beats em all... as much as I love using the P-Rod, during the FoB, I have a low successrate against good pvp'ers with EQB. For NW fighting, towerfights, that is, I loved using Staff/pipe as it gave you an alpha when training through the towers. Versus the towers, EQB and Prod matched eachother pretty much in damage output.

tested out the QB/EQB/P-Rod/Staff-pipe outside Fob. The rod and the Eqb came out pretty even. with 3 testers doing 3 fights each, damage dealt by EQB was 234299 total and the P-Rod inflicted 232870 total with only rage running.. NOTE: Dimach not done with EQB. QB ended up with 194902. Pipe/staff numbers are missing, but I don't see it as a "huge" thing as the damage there is far less reliable than the qb/eqb/prod.

during FoB, Eqb did about 20-25% more damage than Prod and QB and the Staff/pipe ended up way behind. (if you don't crit-sneak.. whatcha gonna do? )
The Staff/pipe is awsome in big battles, but toe to toe, your opponent will eat you if he/she goes Full def on your alpha.

--------------

Some final thoughts.

Observing, discussing and experiencing the different weapons made me think some. EoT is out of date it seems. beaten by 3 new slaughter weps, more enforcers climb the title-ladder day by day. Many former *lousy* pvp'ers have become awsome with an EQB killing even the more experienced pvp'ers due to an enourmous ammount of damage. It's good to see Enfs've gotten some change and all, but (I'm really sorry to say so) in my opinion, the EQB is a *tad* too strong.

Talked to some peeps using it on Rimor and some on Atlanteean (walk around there sometimes with my fixer to bug the crap out of enfs if I need another opinion) and those I know have little pvp experience from previous days that ended up with great titles after EQB told me "I'm cancelling account if they nerf EQB".
(just pointing out that I'm not the man to quit-threat as I don't work for FC. I just test the crap out of every thing from time to time) :P

A lot of people have buried the Beam totally. I don't think you should do that too quickly. it's still a nasty wep... took a few missions with it, and during FoB (QL 148), buffed with TTS and MoP, I did 1/1 hits only wearing TIM scope (Link here ).

aaaanyhow.. that's my thoughts so far on these weapons and some info for you who haven't gotten it all clear yet.

Dengy

[infrared]

what about other weapons that people commonly use?

Beams, Hammers, Katanas. I see alot of enforcers doing just well with these in PvP and PvM.

You dont need a unique to deal alot of damage, and you dont need a unique to win a PvP battle.

[Deng]

Absolutely no need for that

But this test was supposed to aim at the special weps and include one common (pipe staff in this case) to compare to these. A little introduction to some peeps that haven't gotten to the levels of using 'em yet or are insecure if they should go for it or not.

I'm a huge fan of Beam/Katanas myself, but we all can get our hands of these or have tried them allready.

Dengy

[_______________Shodu]

Thanks for a good report, made me think that i'll stick to the alloy/pipe combo until 165 then go for QB and later EQB.

[blackmaneD]

Just a note about the future: QB/EQB/PR are meant to be slow weapons, and not able to get anywhere near 1/1. Sometime in the future (not the near future, however), these weapons will get some limitations placed on them as to how fast they can get.

If you are planning on building your character about being able to get these weapons anywhere near 1/1, don't. They will still be excellent weapons, but not as obscenely powerful as they get at 1/1.

[infrared]

no need for what? that wasnt a flame and i wasnt trying to put your report down.

[____________Bigmongo]

ok so a nerf will come to the EQB, QB and P-Rod. now we got the answer for that... Well its a nerf that maybe not are done to the weaps but maybe to FoB, As the weapons work as intended without FoB...

And Deng the QB and EQB has the same recharge, It was the *old QB that had the long recharge...

Edit: *Old QB not Hold QB =)

[Deng]

heheheh

you wrote:

"You dont need a unique to deal alot of damage, and you dont need a unique to win a PvP battle."

I agreed with typing "No need for that"

little misunderstanding there bud. I ment to express that I agree with you there


Dengy


PS thanks for the info Blackmane. DOes this mean that the Rod and the QB will be more "close" overall in dmg?

[Deng]

Ahh.. thanks for the correction Bigmongo

[infrared]

oh i see what ya mean deng, sorry for the misunderstanding

[____________Ejeckted]

Originally posted by Deng
The EQB comes close to hitting 1/1 during FOb period.

You sure?
with the new 1/3rd init rule after 1200?

the QB/EQB has a 4.0 attack and 7.2 recharge.

assuming -0.25 off each side for 100%AGG
that's 3.75 attack and 6.95 recharge

then assume 600init = 1 sec off attack and -2 second off recharge
add 1200 init
that's 1.75/2.95

after 1200,
600 init would = @ -0.33 off attack and -0.66 off recharge

so with 1800 init
the QB would be hitting at 1.42/2.29

and with 2400 init
the QB would be hitting at 1.09/1.63



now.. I'm not saying that 2400 init is completely impossible
but we do have to ask how realistic it is to judge this weapon
at 2400 init..


FoB lasts @30 sec and can only be used every 2 1/2 minutes.
What about the the other 4/5ths of the time?

Rage lasts 40ish seconds and chaincasting it for any extended
period of time (perhaps matters less in PvP) is IMO impracticle
for low-nanopool / high-nanocost enforcers. That's debatable,
but for long fights with new uber mobs. . I don't know. .

And it's hard to argue that those who implant for
melee-init or seek out rare melee-init+ items
don't deserve to benefit.

It's really only with these massively slow weapons
that one can take full advantage of an extreme
initive strategy. Remember that meleeinit clusters
cost you evade clusters. Tough choices are good.
Making high meleeinit obsolete leaves little to decide.


Those who remember me (including Blackmane?),
know that I was rallying for a QB fix longest and loudest.
I used a QB exclusively since before the fix to the weapon or inits
or Enf edge buffs. (2HE my whole life)
So I'm attached to this weapon.

And, no, the last thing I wanted was for every enforcer
on the planet to be using one. It's the new Support Beam
and that annoys me a little. I would love it if every weapon
in the game was available to everyone, and they all did
about the same damage as eachother, with skill level primarily
affecting damage output, and the choice of what to wield
was up to the players personal choice/style
rather than letting the stats make the decision for you.

But I'm trying to be the voice of reason here
and maybe advise people who like this weapon
not to spread exagerations about QB Enfs
running around with a constant 2400 init.

Because for 2 minutes out of every 2 and a half minutes,
(4/5ths of the time) they simply cannot.

And when rage is down or they have to choose
not to run it due to needing nanopool for
mongo/challenger/whatever ..
then it's back to well under 1200.

for reference,
I think I'm about 900 without Rage and FoB at lvl170 IIRC,
and best I can get for that limited 30 seconds is @1800+.



I'm as afraid of FCs nerfbat as everyone else,
but what's the worst they can do?
Put it back to the way it was when I was first using it?

Actually.. maybe that's not a bad idea.
Rather than totally screw up the init system even more
(third effectiveness post 1200 is arbitrary and cheap fix imho)
just make the QB a bit slower again without changing damage.
This would nerf total damage over time but would not
eliminate the strategy of maximizing inititives.

[______________Molgan]

/me sings

We shall overcome!

[futonpimp]

bleeeeeeeeeeeeh





is there any talk about ga4 fixers in PVP ??? hello i cannot hit them...??



is there any talk about complete heal for docs in PVP ?? hello 1/1 for 20 seconds just means they hafta cast ch a 2nd time and then land palsy on you and you might as well sit down the rest of the fight. ????


is there any talk about the new tl6 Hell Spinner upgraded gun ?? hello they throw up tms and enf's can't touch them and the dmg from that gun kicks your arse back to reclaim so damn fast. 5k Full auto almost every time from that gun.



oh and ma's are still #1 in damage in PVM ...by FAR ...



oh now lets talk about traders who can put your EQB at 25% of its ability ?? OH THATS FAIR ??



wait wait ...agents can FP trader nerf your weapon and then cast total concentration and kill anyone


bah


QUIT GIVING US STUFF AND THEN NERFING IT. we build are characters around these weapons we use the last of our IPR points. if we have no ipr points left we might as well delete the character and start a new one ... is that what your intentions are ??


</flame>

[Thyrra]

good post as always deng.

i think it could provide a little bit more warning about scumbug's point that most of the time you don't have fob running. while most people that use fob should know this, it seems that too many people ( and trolls ) are under the impression that fob runs near 100% of the time.

Originally posted by blackmane
Just a note about the future: QB/EQB/PR are meant to be slow weapons, and not able to get anywhere near 1/1. Sometime in the future (not the near future, however), these weapons will get some limitations placed on them as to how fast they can get.

If you are planning on building your character about being able to get these weapons anywhere near 1/1, don't. They will still be excellent weapons, but not as obscenely powerful as they get at 1/1.

by limitations are you talking about putting a speed cap on the weapon itself so it can't go faster than a certain limit?

back when you first changed these weapons i assumed they'd still have a slow attack/recharge cycle but be worth using because of the great damage, similarly to hammers being worth using at low levels. the fixes to how inits work seem to have unbalanced things and all of a sudden people were doing really great damage; great for them, but i was personally put off when these weapons became the new default weapons at high levels instead of having the diversity we asked for and i think you tried to provide.

people have recently been reporting that they are faster with true katanas than with hammers at the same init. is there something wrong with one of those weapons or are people just 'seeing what they want to see'?

[Phione]

Originally posted by Scumbug

and with 2400 init
the QB would be hitting at 1.09/1.63

I'm not sure how close it is to 1/1, but no more than 200 ms off, recharge is surely faster than 1.63 with FoB.

Also, Deng said something about 1600 AR ... isn't the AR still bugged ? Add All Off. items add twice as much AR as they should, only visual bugg though. Mighty Challenger to Behemoth adds 252 All Off., but visually it adds 504 to your AR. So if your planning on doing calculations using 1400 AR would be more accurate

I don't mind getting nerfed a bit, EQB at 1/1 is just crazy, and even without flurry, it's still an excellent weapon.

[_________BoltGrinder]

Cant hit a GA4 fixer? Are you on crack?

Ive got a good amount of GA4 fixer kills in tower battles and arena.

Docs arent hard either with EQB if you interrupt a CH they are dead, period.

[Phione]

I don't have much troubles with GAIV anymore, though I still rarely hit, guess you need some luck to beat them :P

Docs I usually fight full def (until an init debuff lands, which doesn't happen all that often at full def). At some random time I Flurrry and go full agg, brawl when their hp goes below 40% (if it stuns, they're dead), if you go dimach up, 90% of all docs will CH too late If you can't kill them because "they CH-ed too late", there's still a very good chance of beating a doc because "they ran out of nano", depends if they and you have nano cost reducers and/or HE, both very important in long fights.

[____________Ejeckted]

Originally posted by Phione


I'm not sure how close it is to 1/1, but no more than 200 ms off, recharge is surely faster than 1.63 with FoB.

if you take issue with the math,
then go ahead and show me where I went wrong.

in the meantime, at Full AGG with 2400 init
using all current init theory/formula
the QB/EQB will hit pretty damn close to 1.09/1.63

(I did round the 0.33333333333... and 0.666666666...
that would be associated with 1/3rd init efect post 1200)

And I also am still skeptical of the -0.25 at full AGG idea.
Maybe someone has proven this without a doubt,
but if it's more people with stopwatches then.. bleh.


besides, at 170 I currently can't get anywhere near 2400 inits.
Is it even possible? Maybe with a Shadowrift Shrine buff.. heh

I don't mind getting nerfed a bit, EQB at 1/1 is just crazy, and even without flurry, it's still an excellent weapon.

It's HOW they nerf it that'll determine how mad we all get.
If it must be nerfed, then I would beg for only a reduction
in base speed and not an arbitrary hard cap for this weapon
that doesnt apply to anything else. We all should be playing
by the same rules here. I do not want to see our choice of
implanting inits vs other stuff made obsolete by an arbitrary
hard cap. A hard cap would make melee init implants
and any other melee init increasing items worthless.

[Phione]

Originally posted by Scumbug

in the meantime, at Full AGG with 2400 init
using all current init theory/formula
the QB/EQB will hit pretty damn close to 1.09/1.63

Not true at all, the formulas aren't official information provided by FC, it's just assumptions made by players, that's where you went wrong. I will do testing later, but I can tell that my EQB hits for at LEAST 1.2/1.2 with 2200 inits.

Edit: Test results :P

6 hits in 14 seconds, 9 hits in 21 seconds

= 2.33s for one full attack.

Now if attack was 1s, recharge would be 1.3s. Visually, the attack and recharge are as fast as eachother, so I think 1.166s/1.166s is pretty close to the speed I hit at at 2200 inits (my FoB is a bit out of date :P).

[__________BrutalThug]

Originally posted by Scumbug


Those who remember me (including Blackmane?),
know that I was rallying for a QB fix longest and loudest.
I used a QB exclusively since before the fix to the weapon or inits
or Enf edge buffs. (2HE my whole life)
So I'm attached to this weapon.

I remember , you were soo gimp in that graft armor and white silk gloves =) (no offense )

Problem is , they created a monster.. a huge havoc wrecking EQB wielding clone army, I dont understand why they make 1 weapon that powerfull. ( i dont have it yet.. hehe now i might never lol )
And making new weapons, when they should balance the old ones first , make the Wind katana's drop, I dont get that either...

I have yet to see someone "not mentaly ill" use an improved slank ...