Itemization balance: Weapons

[Genie]

I was going to wait with posting this untill I had finsihed it, but since it seems I will never finish it, Ill just post the unfinished thoughts and bits now.

Maybe I'll get some inspiration to make some example weapons and to fine tune it later on.

Summary:

1. Divide all weapon types into size categories.
2. Speed, damage and special limitations for each size category.
3. Weapon specials.
4. Energy weapon template.
5. Heavy weapons template.
6. Attack rating and damage.

[Genie]

Small weapons: Pistol, SMG

A small weapon is fast and have the option of being dual wielded with another small weapon. Damage is low, and it is limited to the "weaker" specials. Because of their speed they're ideal for defensive setups

Medium weapons: SMG, MG, Shotgun, Rifle, Assault rifle

A medium weapon is somewhat slower and cannot be dual wielded with another weapon. It is the ultimate mediocre weapon, ideal for support professions that suplement damage with other abilities. They are also very good weapons for starting characters.

Large weapons: MG, Shotgun, Rifle, Assault rifle, Grenade launcher, Flamethrower

A large weapon is slow, but it was good damage and it can have any kind of special. Large weapons are the natural choice for power houses who rely only on weapon damage. Since they are slow, large weapons are best for aggressive setups.

Huge weapons: MG, Rifle, Assault rifle, Grenade launcher, Rocket launcher, Flamethrower, Cannon

A huge weapon is the ultimate in destructive power. They are the slowest weapons around, but they are also the ones that cause the most damage. They can have any kind of special, and with the heavy weapons template also have procs that cause additional havoc.

[Genie]

The size category of a weapon set limits of speed, damage and available specials. It can never exceed these limitations without sliding into the next size category. Generally we can say that a medium weapon does more damage than a small weapon, and a large does more than a medium, and so forth.

Small.
Speed: 1/1
Damage (kinetic): 150/s
Damage (energy): +25/s
Available specials: Fling Shot, Short Burst
Notes: Can be dual wielded

Medium.
Speed: 1.5/1.5
Damage (kinetic): 200/s
Damage (energy): +25/s
Available specials: Fling Shot, Slug Shot, Short Burst, Semi Automatic, Snipe Shot
Notes: Some medium weapons can be dual wielded with a small weapon, but in that case the MR of the medium weapon must be met

Large.
Speed: 2/2
Damage (kinetic): 300/s
Damage (energy): +25/s
Available specials: Fling Shot, Slug Shot, Flak Shot, Short Burst, Long Burst, Semi Automatic, Full Automatic, Snipe Shot, Aimed Shot

Huge.
Speed: 3/3
Damage (kinetic): 350/s
Damage (energy): +25/s
Damage (HW): +25/s
Available specials: Fling Shot, Slug Shot, Flak Shot, Short Burst, Long Burst, Semi Automatic, Full Automatic, Snipe Shot, Aimed Shot

PS: The numbers represented in the categories are just example values to give you an idea of how templates will work.

[Genie]

At present, all weapon specials are instant. With this change, weapon specials will have an attack and recharge, much like perk specials have today. They also block eachother so that you cannot execute another special while one is already executing. Special execution can be halted by movement, just like normal attacks are.

Normal attack.
Speed: 1/1
Description: A normal attack takes 2 seconds total time to execute.

Fling Shot.
Speed: 0/1
Recharge cap: 4 seconds
Recharge formula: 15 - Fling skill/100
Description: This special uses the fling skill. A fast shot with instant execution.

Slug Shot.
Speed: 1/1
Recharge cap: 8 seconds
Recharge formula: tba
Notes: Guaranteed critical. Only available for shotguns and grenade launchers.
Description: This special uses the fling skill. A massive slug is fired from the shotgun or grenade launcher. A hit is an automatic critical.

Flak Shot.
Speed: 1/2
Recharge cap: 14 seconds
Recharge formula: tba
Notes: Guaranteed critical. Min hit 1. Max hit 3. Fling skill decides hits. Only available for shotguns and grenade launchers.
Description: This special uses the fling skill. A flak shot that can spread into up to three fragments. The amount of fling skill determines the number of fragments. The fragments must make individual to hit checks. Each fragment is an automatic critical if it hits.

Short Burst.
Speed: 1/2
Recharge cap: 8 seconds
Recharge formula: 8 + Max(0, Burst Cycle/100 - Burst Skill/25)
Bullets cap: 3.
Bullets formula: 3
Description: This special uses the burst skill. All bullets must make a to hit check, and if one bullet misses, then all subsequent bullets also misses. Hits in a burst cannot crit.

Long Burst.
Speed: 1/2
Recharge cap: 12 seconds
Recharge formula: 12 + Max(0, Burst Cycle/100 - Burst Skill/25)
Bullets cap: 3/6
Bullets formula: 3 + Max(6, Burst Skill/400)
Description: This special uses the burst skill. All bullets must make a to hit check, and if one bullet misses, then all subsequent bullets also misses. Hits in a burst cannot crit. The amount of burst skill determines the number of bullets.

Semi Automatic.
Speed: 1/3
Recharge cap: 16 seconds
Recharge formula: tba
Bullets cap: 3/10
Bullets formula:
Notes: Forces reload. Min bullet 3. MaxBullet 10. Full Auto skill decides bullets.
Description: This special uses the full auto skill. All bullets must make a to hit check, and if one bullet misses, then all subsequent bullets also misses. Hits in an automatic cannot crit. The amount of full auto skill determines the number of bullets.

Full Automatic.
Speed: 1/3
Recharge cap: 20 seconds
Recharge formula: 20 + Max(0, Full Auto Delay/100 - FA skill/25)
Bullets cap: 5/20
Bullets formula:
Notes: Forces reload. Min bullet 5. MaxBullet 20. Full Auto skill decides bullets.
Description: This special uses the full auto skill. All bullets must make a to hit check, and if one bullet misses, then all subsequent bullets also misses. Hits in an automatic cannot crit. The amount of full auto skill determines the number of bullets.

Snipe Shot.
Speed: 2/1
Recharge cap: 14 seconds
Recharge formula: tba
Multiplier cap: 1/7
Multiplier formula:
Notes: Attack 0 from hiding. Min multiplier 1. Max multiplier 7. Aimed Shot skill decides multiplier.
Description: This special uses the aimed shot skill. The snipe shot is an automatic hit that ignores AC and always hits for maximum damage, augmented by a multiplier. The multiplier is determined by your aimed shot skill divided by 150. The minimum multiplier for the snipe shot is 1.

Aimed Shot.
Speed: 3/1
Recharge cap: 20 seconds
Recharge formula: 40 - (3 x AS skill/100)
Multiplier cap: 3/14
Multiplier formula: 3 + Max(14, AS skill/150)
Notes: Attack 0 from hiding. Min multiplier 3. Max multiplier 14. Aimed Shot skill decides multiplier.
Description: This special uses the aimed shot skill. The aimed shot is an automatic hit that ignores AC and always hits for maximum damage, augmented by a multiplier. The multiplier is determined by your aimed shot skill divided by 150. The minimum multiplier for the aimed shot is 3.

[Genie]

Energy weapon is a template that can be applied to any weapon to make it an energy weapon. Energy weapons do more damage than kinetic weapons, but they also require the energy weapon skill to equip. AR calculations will still only use the original weapon skill, in other words no 66% Assault Rifle, 33% Energy Weapon.

A weapon is kinetic (projectile/melee) by default, and can have these damage types: projectile/melee, chemical, poison, radiation.

With the energy weapon template, the weapon becomes an energy weapon and can have these damage types: energy, fire, cold, radiation.

This system will make energy weapons usable to all professions regardless of their prefeered weapon.

[Genie]

Heavy weapons is a template that can be applied to a huge weapon to make it a heavy weapon. Heavy weapons do more damage and is slower than the huge weapon base, but they also require the heavy weapons skill to equip. AR calculations will still only use the original weapon skill. The heavy weapon template can stack with the energy weapon template.

A heavy weapon template gives the huge weapon a proc. Examples of heavy weapon procs are stuns, snares, roots, init debuffs, defense debuffs, dots, etc.

This system will make heavy weapons usable to any wielder of huge weapons.

[Genie]

Attack rating will no longer increase the damage of the weapon used. A weapon with a damage range 50-250 will always do damage between that range + add damage. A higher attack rating will however make it more likely to score a hit in the high end of the range rather than the low end.

This will make it a lot easier to balance the damage potential of a character. Since damage does not scale with skill, you need only take into account the maximum damage potential of the weapon in question + all add damage available to find out how much damage a charcter will do with a specific weapon.

Allthough skill will not increase damage beyond the max of the weapon, we could have a system that says a higher skill that necesarry to equip the weapon will result in more hits in the upper damage range, while a lesser skill will results in more hits in the lower damage range.

[Genie]

We need to calculate the max damage per hit for a weapon with specials, so that the total amount does not exceed the allowed maximum dps. Here are some short terms to make the formula easier:

srt = special recharge time
set = special execution time
sdm = special damage multiplier
mdps = maximum allowed dps of weapon
mdph = maximum damage per hit

Example for large weapon with fling, long burst and full automatic:

srt = 4, 12, 20
set = 1, 3, 4
sdm = 1, 6, 20
mdps = 300

Find out the minimum time you need to execute all specials in a even number. This is a little tricky. For the example above you need to take into account all 3 specials.

It takes 20 seconds to recharge an fa, during which time you can do 1.67 bursts and 5 fling. So we need to find the multiplier of 20 that gives us a whole number. So we reduce the fraction 20/12 as much as possible and come up with 5/3. 3 x 20 = 60s. In 60 secs you get the following specials:

3 fa (60/20) takes 12s to execute
5 bursts (60/12) takes 15s to execute
15 fling (60/4) takes 15s to execute

So we sum up the execution time of all specials possible in 60 seconds. The remainding time is left over for normal attacks. So we get:

42 seconds total special execution (15 flings at 1s each + 5 bursts at 3s each + 3 fa at 4s each)
18 seconds normal attack time (9 normal attacks)

Finally we calculate the maximum damage per hit for the weapon to keep it within the allowed max dps limit. First we need to find out how many hits the weapon does during the 60s. Specials are just a collection of hits, so its not that hard to figure out. We get:

9 normal hits (1 hit every 2 sec)
15 fling hits (1 hit per fling)
30 burst hits (6 hits per brust)
60 fa hits (20 hits per fa)

The formula for determining the max damage per hit for a weapon is:

mdph = mdps x total time / number of hits

So we just fill in the variables from our example and get:

mdph = 300 x 60 / 114 = 157

For our example large weapon this means it can have a damage range from 1 - 157 (the min damage is not important here) to stay within the limit of 300 dps set for large weapons.

Lets reverse engineer it. We assume that every shot and every special will do the maximum allowed damage.

9 normal hits: 1413
15 flings: 2355
5 bursts: 4710
3 fas: 9420

total of: 17898 in 60s

damage per hit: 17898/60 = 298.3

[Gatester]

First

Overall I like a lot of what you presented, the last part about damage calculations was a bit much to read right now though. The specials are good, I like that you cannot do 3 or 4 weapon specials simultaneously which neither made sense nor was balanced given the speed of the damage. I believe your energy weapons, however, should be given some beam-type special alternatives, rather than utilizing specials appropriate for standard ammunition.

Two suggestion I could offer involve accuracy for one and sustained and cumulative damage for the other. As for accuracy, a no-crit special that always hits similar to fling shot. For sustained damage a low recharge special that begins with low damage but increases with damage each time it is used on the same target. If it had a 10 second recharge cap, lets say after the 5th consecutive hit it would be doing 2x regular damage every 10 seconds.

I would also try to include flamethrowers and cannons in your heavy weapons list, mostly due to being fan favorites. Flamethrowers could do low damage but proc cumulative DoT damage, being good for high accuracy builds against evaders. Cannons could have a large variety of damage modules.

The attack rating change is also interesting. Rather than increasing the damage range you suggest having a higher attack rating increasing the chances of hitting for more damage on the existing damage range. I think this would be a better system in the long run but there could be problems with it as well. The MBS caps may still be necessary in some fashion to prevent 1-1000 range weapons from being cappable.

My last point will be that the medium weapons could be duel-wieldable but only equippable in the right hand slot. This would apply to certain weapons only and could be made profession specific as well, in order to allow for a soldier to hold a shotgun in one hand with a pistol in the other. Including a "light-shotgun" might be a good idea as well.

[Genie]

Explanation of terms used.

srt = special recharge time
set = special execution time
sdm = special damage multiplier
mdps = maximum allowed dps of weapon
mdph = maximum damage per hit


Small weapon with fling.

srt = 4
set = 1
sdm = 1
mdps = 150

total time: 8s (4s gives 1.5 normal attacks, and we need whole numbers)

6s normal attack time (3 normal attacks) with 3 normal hits (1 hit every 2s)
2s special execution time (2 flings at 1s) with 2 fling hits (1 hit per fling)

mdph = 150 x 8 / 5 = 240

Damage range: 1-240


Small weapon with short burst.

srt = 8
set = 3
sdm = 3
mdps = 150

total time: 16s (8s gives 2.5 normal attacks, and we need whole numbers)

10s normal attack time (5 normal attacks) with 5 normal hits
6s special execution time (2 bursts at 3s) with 6 burst hits

mdph = 150 x 16 / 11 = 218

Damage range: 1-218

Medium energy weapon with short burst and snipe shot.

srt = 8, 14
set = 3, 3
sdm = 3, 7
mdps = 225

total time: 112s (14/8 fraction can be reduced to 7/4, but this gives us 11.5 normal attacks)

14 bursts (112/8) takes 42s to execute
8 as (112/14) takes 24s to execute

46s normal attack time (23 normal attacks) with 23 normal hits
66s special execution time (14 bursts at 3s and 8 as at 3s) with 42 burst hits and 56 as hits

mdph = 225 x 112 / 121 = 208

Damage range: 1-208

[drainbamage]

So you did all this rebalance work but you left in the stupid multiplier attacks?

[Genie]

Overall I like a lot of what you presented, the last part about damage calculations was a bit much to read right now though.

The damage calculation part is my attempt at finding how much damage per second a weapon does including all specials. If we limit any small weapon to max 150 dps, there has to be a way to calculate what the max damage of small weapons can be, even when it has fling or burst.

The specials are good, I like that you cannot do 3 or 4 weapon specials simultaneously which neither made sense nor was balanced given the speed of the damage. I believe your energy weapons, however, should be given some beam-type special alternatives, rather than utilizing specials appropriate for standard ammunition.

Thats a good idea The specials I listed are just examples of how it can be done. Why does burst always have to be burst, when the same mechanics can be used for lots of different specials depending on the gun? Energy weapon specific specials and heavy weapon specific specials, or even weapon type specific specials can be made using these same mechanics.

My point was to introduce more variation in specials using the mechanics that already exists. Like long burst is a more powerful version of the burst we have today, and semi automatic is a weaker version of full automatic. They still use burst and FA mechanics.

I would also try to include flamethrowers and cannons in your heavy weapons list, mostly due to being fan favorites. Flamethrowers could do low damage but proc cumulative DoT damage, being good for high accuracy builds against evaders. Cannons could have a large variety of damage modules.

Ill add them

These are only templates for size categories, not actual weapons, and can hopefully give content developers a guide to making weapons, so that they dont exceed the limits set for them. Makes it a lot easier to balance using templates than individual weapons.

But yeah, flamethrowers, cannons, etc would be typical heavy weapons. I hope to be able to make some example weapons using these templates, and list them here.

The attack rating change is also interesting. Rather than increasing the damage range you suggest having a higher attack rating increasing the chances of hitting for more damage on the existing damage range. I think this would be a better system in the long run but there could be problems with it as well. The MBS caps may still be necessary in some fashion to prevent 1-1000 range weapons from being cappable.

Yes. I have been thinking for some time now that damage in this game is severly overloaded, and with the balancing we have a chance to control it. I feel it would be much easier to control damage if skill dont add to it. Then you're just left with damage of the weapon (which in turn is limited by the template) and any add dmg buff or item, which should be easy to calculate.

My hope is that the dps limits for each size category, and the damage calculation will prevent 1-1000 ranges. The other hope is that if the rebalance can get damage down enough, we wont need caps, pvp damage, mobs with insane health, etc. As a bonus armor suddenly becomes a viable defense again

My last point will be that the medium weapons could be duel-wieldable but only equippable in the right hand slot. This would apply to certain weapons only and could be made profession specific as well, in order to allow for a soldier to hold a shotgun in one hand with a pistol in the other. Including a "light-shotgun" might be a good idea as well.

Thats a brilliant idea I was thinking that dual wielding just small weapons would not be enough for the gun professions, I just couldnt think of a good way to implement it.

Ill add this, and to make sure it cant be missused there should be a rule that says that when you dual a small weapon with a medium one, then the MR req of the larger size category (aka the medium) must be met. This way MR for medium/small combos can be very high (only viable for soldiers, adv, fixers, etc), while small/small combos can have medium MR reqs.

[Otansaanpas]

what about damage reduction?

-Armor: new formula needed (percentual?)
-Reflects: ?
-Shield: ?

[Gatester]

I think variations in the attack times would be necessary as well after reading it, which may also alter damage output of the weapons given adjustments of the aggdef bar and increases/decreases in initiatives.

What would be good is, rather than giving a base 1/1, 2/2, 3/3 attack and recharge speed that you do something like:

3/3 at a total of 6 attack time with variations of up to 4.5/1 or 1/4.5 with a total of 5.5 attack time.

I cannot remember which one was affected by initiatives more, but what I am trying for is a balance on the weapons that gives a technical choice for players. It might work out to where a total attack time for x/1 or 1/x should be higher instead.

I do not think weapon specials should be dependant on weapon attack and recharges however, as that system is probably one of the biggest limiting factors on weapon choices. It will make the system more complicated but I think weapon rates of speed should be one of the more complex factors in weapon choice.

[Genie]

I do not think weapon specials should be dependant on weapon attack and recharges however, as that system is probably one of the biggest limiting factors on weapon choices. It will make the system more complicated but I think weapon rates of speed should be one of the more complex factors in weapon choice.

Yes I agree. Weapon attack/recharge should not be a part of special recharge calculations. That way its much easier to control individual special recharge times regardless of fast or slow weapons.

[Genie]

I think variations in the attack times would be necessary as well after reading it, which may also alter damage output of the weapons given adjustments of the aggdef bar and increases/decreases in initiatives.

The idea is that you should not be able to get maximum dps out of your weapon unless you are willing to spend necesarry ip in init and/or set the aggdef bar towards aggressive.

If you use a small weapon, which is 1/1, you can be defensive, and still get maximum dps. The trade off is that small weapons do less damage than huge ones.

If you use a huge weapon, which is 3/3, you have to be aggressive to be able to get the maximum dps. You will do more damage than a small weapon user, but your defense will suffer.

Conclusion is that if you want to dish out damage, you must also be prepared to take it. If you want to dodge every attack, you cant expect to do much damage either.

Problem is that with todays system, high init skill can ruin that way of thinking. It should not be possible to use the heaviest weapon at maximum dps and still be defensive. Maybe we should just remove init skills from the game completely, and let aggdef bar alone control your init?

[Shareida]

One flaw with this is, that weapon damage is capped at 13000.

[Genie]

One flaw with this is, that weapon damage is capped at 13000

With controlled damage, and specials that dont crit, Im hoping that caps will be obsolete. If the templates limits damage so that it is impossible to reach these caps, then there will be no need for them.

[edmaster3]

I like all this cause you came up with a plan and put your heart and knowledge into it to help make ao better. I couldn't read all of it, I got tired just trying to get to the bottom of the page, Just kidding it was good.

[lainbr]

Hmmmm, one word: Bow?