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Thread: Friday with Means - May 22nd, 2009

  1. #181
    No, Open Source does -not- mean more exploits. Typically in the FOSS world, an exploit is usually fixed as quickly as it is found and fixes are usually available before any "malpractice" is carried out.

    The benefit of having lots of developers available. By contrast, fixes come from Microsoft more slowly, although things are much better in that respect than they used to be.

    If anything, security through obscurity is practiced in the notion that closed source = more secure due to not being able to see the source.
    Member of Spartans
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    Quote Originally Posted by randomalpha View Post
    in the end soldier is not Op or even near from that never was never will be just for the record only keepers are the ones before soldiers on the nerfest list
    Genius at work.

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Ayria View Post
    The question I'm getting at is, if there was a market that really competed with Linux (Unix w/e) but that cost money would people go for it? Or is it because it's a free toy that they can customize?
    Definitely yes I would go for it.

    I own legal copies (as in I paid Microsoft money for them, no hacks, no downloading, no getting around serials) of Vista Ultimate, Vista Home Premium, Windows XP Home, and just about every desktop version of Windows - excepting Win2k - before that.

    I even have the Vista copies installed on both my laptop and my desktop, but I still find myself almost exclusively using Kubuntu (Linux).

    That Kubuntu is freely available to download - totally legal at that - is simply another merit.

    To be honest the only place where Windows excels over Kubuntu is gaming compatibility - in my case, the Wine'd install of AO on my Linux performs better/faster/smoother than the regular install on Windows! No clue why, it just does. Maybe my PC sucks.
    Lupusceleri L220/30/70 Agent -- Advisor of Spartans -- equip endgame AR setup endgame def setup <3 Azs wearer of Cheree's pants
    Arrowsmith -- Arafellin -- Alphacenta -- Aesculapias -- Wolfseye -- Lysdexic


    TL5 enf twink: im out those MPs are to overpowered

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  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Lupusceleri View Post
    To be honest the only place where Windows excels over Kubuntu is gaming compatibility - in my case, the Wine'd install of AO on my Linux performs better/faster/smoother than the regular install on Windows! No clue why, it just does. Maybe my PC sucks.
    The way Linux manages IO is often more efficient to how Windows does. If memory serves, with wine/cedega, more load is spread across cores if you have more than one, as well.

    One thing I noticed between Windows and Linux, is no door lag, -ever-, under Linux, on the same hardware.
    Member of Spartans
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    Quote Originally Posted by randomalpha View Post
    in the end soldier is not Op or even near from that never was never will be just for the record only keepers are the ones before soldiers on the nerfest list
    Genius at work.

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Hacre View Post
    The way Linux manages IO is often more efficient to how Windows does. If memory serves, with wine/cedega, more load is spread across cores if you have more than one, as well.
    That's one thing I've never understood about Windows. This PC has two cores, but the only program that ever uses is Cinema4d (3d rendering program like 3d Max etc). Well okay so things like AO aren't programmed to use them, that's understandable. But why can't the OS (Windows) spread the load out? I get issues running some games because 1 core is overloaded and the other is sitting there doing **** all.
    Enter the Information Age
    Proc Descriptions

    Hunt, and be hunted: The Hunting Grounds | Alien Tower Field :Aliens, that really invade!
    Pet argo management: Servants Protection | Expand the Notum Silo :Make it worthwhile


    Rimor
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    Leara - 220|25|62 (Omni Doctor)
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    Means: "We have done way dumber things than this..."

  5. #185
    The words "You'll only ever need 640k conventional memory" come to mind.

    Like Lupusceleri, I would definitely buy/pay for Linux solutions, because usually they are better products/faster/more stable than windows stuff. Speaking of which I own a commercial/licensed copy of CrossOver which is basically a commercial wine/cedega-like solution. that also happens to support macos/osX. Dunno if anyone has tested AoC on that? I haven't tried but it might work.

    CrossOver Linux has a cool thing that on their website, you can pay/donate/vote for the next thing to add support to. Like outlook 2007 or Age of Conan/Anarchy Online

    No I do not work for them

    Personally though I'm hesitant to use/pay for any closed source stuff, especially on my open-source boxen. I would rather install closed/virus-ridden/insecure software on my closed/virus-ridden/insecure OS *hint hint*.

    too much excellent software distributed with source is underpriced at the moment. source gives me the security, peace of mind, turnaround times for bugfixes and improvements, and flexibility in customisations that I require.
    Shadow Ops
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  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Ayria View Post
    That's one thing I've never understood about Windows. This PC has two cores, but the only program that ever uses is Cinema4d (3d rendering program like 3d Max etc). Well okay so things like AO aren't programmed to use them, that's understandable. But why can't the OS (Windows) spread the load out? I get issues running some games because 1 core is overloaded and the other is sitting there doing **** all.
    Primer and also this are necessary reading to appreciate why you can't just divide an arbitrary task amongst two processors.

    (Yes I've read them.)


    If you can't be bothered, try Wikipedia here and here (you might want to read the additional topics available on the latter reference.

    If you still can't be bothered, it should suffice to say that running a program is quite unlike plowing a field, which could be considered a task easily divisible between two workers of similar capacity.

    Finally, your other core is still doing important stuff and is making the core your preferred software is running on perform better due to the "primary" core not having to do context switching for all those applications and many operating system level calls that are running anyway, whatever you do. The speedup gained there is not as insignificant as you'd think.

    Edit: And Ozzy for crying out loud, give it a rest with the FOSS preaching already... The advantages of that approach are dependant on context and you should know that too. You're starting to sound like RMS in disguise (come to think of it, the avatar bears an alarming similarity).
    Last edited by eroz_c; May 24th, 2009 at 21:28:57.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siahanor View Post
    Complaining about the realism of height changing mechanics in a game that has people who can channel their anger to make huge killer meatballs.

  7. #187
    I can't say for certain really what my PC is doing, I'm not savvy enough to read the info that it's provided. (My computer not the Wiki)

    CPU: 58% 93% Maximum Frequency

    Anyone know what the hell that means?

    Edit: Alright, I've concluded to blame my RAM which is sitting at 90% most of the time.
    Last edited by Ayria; May 24th, 2009 at 22:01:45.
    Enter the Information Age
    Proc Descriptions

    Hunt, and be hunted: The Hunting Grounds | Alien Tower Field :Aliens, that really invade!
    Pet argo management: Servants Protection | Expand the Notum Silo :Make it worthwhile


    Rimor
    Tesgri - 220|17|58 (Omni Agent)
    Leara - 220|25|62 (Omni Doctor)
    Ponygirl - 220|25|56 (Omni Bureaucrat)
    Means: "We have done way dumber things than this..."

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Ayria View Post
    That's one thing I've never understood about Windows. This PC has two cores, but the only program that ever uses is Cinema4d (3d rendering program like 3d Max etc). Well okay so things like AO aren't programmed to use them, that's understandable. But why can't the OS (Windows) spread the load out? I get issues running some games because 1 core is overloaded and the other is sitting there doing **** all.
    Simply put, because it doesn't work like that.
    Applications that don't take advantage of multiple cores can't magically be turned in applications that do by the OS.
    If you want to know the why and how, do some research
    Formerly Vhab.
    Once upon a time ruled a server. And then sold out. Sorry.

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Hacre View Post
    No, Open Source does -not- mean more exploits. Typically in the FOSS world, an exploit is usually fixed as quickly as it is found [by a white hat] and fixes are hopefully available before any "malpractice" is carried out.
    fixed that for you.

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  10. #190

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Hacre View Post
    The way Linux manages IO is often more efficient to how Windows does. If memory serves, with wine/cedega, more load is spread across cores if you have more than one, as well.

    One thing I noticed between Windows and Linux, is no door lag, -ever-, under Linux, on the same hardware.
    Single core AMD64 3000+, years old. Socket939 tho.
    Lupusceleri L220/30/70 Agent -- Advisor of Spartans -- equip endgame AR setup endgame def setup <3 Azs wearer of Cheree's pants
    Arrowsmith -- Arafellin -- Alphacenta -- Aesculapias -- Wolfseye -- Lysdexic


    TL5 enf twink: im out those MPs are to overpowered

    crattey: The Balance Discussion forum. Where common sense goes to die.

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by solssss View Post
    pie
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    That is a lot of Pi, have a nice dinner solssss

    Kind Regards
    Ariensky
    Humankind can not gain anything, without first giving something in return.
    To obtain; something of equal value must be lost.
    That is the 1st law of equivalent exchange


    Rubi-Ka needs: a nickel statue of an astronaut pointing at the sky
    With the description / plate saying:
    When the stars burn out and I find I lack the strength to continue...one of YOU wil pick up the flag and carry it forward.
    This really isn't a corporate product anymore...it belongs to all of us. Where it goes it up to us.

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by eroz_c View Post
    ...
    Edit: And Ozzy for crying out loud, give it a rest with the FOSS preaching already... The advantages of that approach are dependant on context and you should know that too. You're starting to sound like RMS in disguise (come to think of it, the avatar bears an alarming similarity).
    Hahaha shh don't blow my cover
    Shadow Ops
    Everything that we see is a shadow cast by that which we do not see.
    They'll say we're disturbing the peace, but there is no peace. What really bothers them is that we are disturbing the war.
    Tired of little elves with bows? Fed up with spell-flinging goblins? Bored to death by the solitary world of linear games? Despair not. Freedom is on its way, and its name is Anarchy Online.
    Web: http://www.shadowops-online.org | Twitter: @ShadowOpsOnline | AO: Milestones & History


  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by Ayria View Post
    I can't say for certain really what my PC is doing, I'm not savvy enough to read the info that it's provided. (My computer not the Wiki)

    CPU: 58% 93% Maximum Frequency

    Anyone know what the hell that means?

    Edit: Alright, I've concluded to blame my RAM which is sitting at 90% most of the time.
    Having enough RAM to effectively run a system is a major boost. I run with 8 gb (overkill, but hey ) and no pagefile for Windows. Means no harddisk swapping, ever, meaning all the stuff my harddrive does is either reading and loading straight into RAM, or being written to from the RAM, meaning it gets the most possible performance out of the harddrive.

    Also, windows does indeed spread things out over multiple cores. You'll easily notice this if you for example start up a game and do a virus scan at the same time, for example. As long as the game doesn't require a lot of reading from the same drive you're scanning, you'll see no loss of framerate in most games.
    Thor Mastablasta Hammersmith - Level 220, AI 30, LE 70 Clan Atrox Nano Technician - Setup
    The Red Brotherhood

    I'm a Nano-Technician, don't ever expect me to fight unbuffed, alone or fair.

    Means: about f'ing time :P
    Satenia: heresy <3
    Znore: Mastablasta <3
    Kinkstaah: I have agro from many mobs ;(
    Madarab: we are aoe class, we are supose to use pistols
    Marxgorm: the NT toolset does not fit into my raiding tactics

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Oldskool_Ozzy View Post
    eg: If FC see said they would be releasing parts up for development to the community, I would personally have at least 20-30 (unconfirmed) friends and colleagues that would JUMP on spare code time to work on an open product. Thats sounds like its 2-3x the size of the AoC dev team and thats just ME. then the rest of ao oldtimers on the forums + the community at large...

    AoC has a dev team of around 150 people [source: FC Q1 financials, 2009]: if that is purely in-house, its a major issue right there.

    The major problem with any MMO development, that you see again and again and again isn't lack of people on a project, but lack of cohesive & organised project management, and most importantly, disciplined and realistic management, most importantly, not driven by the wrong parts of a company. I can cite at least five examples of MMO companies getting this wrong, and paying the price. AoC apparently suffered from it as well, or so we hear.

    You really don't want to get into the realms of everyone wanting to add their tiny amount of content, and the headache of tying it all together... especially if each and every one of them has a different "vision" for the product.
    Last edited by Kaitlain; May 25th, 2009 at 09:25:19.

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by Lupusceleri View Post
    Single core AMD64 3000+, years old. Socket939 tho.
    I used to have this CPU, and I wouldn't run vista with it.
    Though, thats simply cause Vista seems to use more juice, and I found juice was an issue with my ol 3000+.

    IMO, upgrade the PC, then any OS will run superbly on it. In which case, you can just look at all the pretty stuff and go ooh! ooh! and then laugh at people who cry over unix/linux/windows differences while you sip martinis and drive ferraris.
    I'm casting "Physical Dominance" on you as a kind of kinky thing
    ... also quite proud of being suspended from Lemmingnet.. for... not slacking?
    GOOD ONE.

    Don't be lonely anymore.

  17. #197
    I was wondering regarding The dreamworld engine ... sins it have speedtree buildt in it ... will we see an upgrade on that part to speedtree 5 and maybe build in speedtree Grass if it aint in there already? I know that Steve Streeting and his slaves at Knot have buildt in those things in the Ogre engine. However i think they charge for that part of the commersial engine of Orge3D.

    For those that have no idea what i am talking about ... and maybe would like to know... can visit www.speedtree.com
    Florentino"Marlark" Suitt
    Master of the Universe of The Asylum

    [Genesis] Marlark: First rule of Genesis, Blame canada for anything and everything with other words blame Rotender.
    [Tsunameh]: i just bought this acct on ebay and you're only friend on the friendslist. There's no creds, could i get some plx?
    [Genesis] Marlark: **** HAPPEN WHEN YOU PARTY NAKED!!!!!!
    [Nipntuck]: what org r u in

    Originally Posted by "Thetweek" : yeah well its a big thing to do marlark is like god :> so hard to go against him hehe

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitlain View Post
    AoC has a dev team of around 150 people [source: FC Q1 financials, 2009]: if that is purely in-house, its a major issue right there.

    The major problem with any MMO development, that you see again and again and again isn't lack of people on a project, but lack of cohesive & organised project management, and most importantly, disciplined and realistic management, most importantly, not driven by the wrong parts of a company. I can cite at least five examples of MMO companies getting this wrong, and paying the price. AoC apparently suffered from it as well, or so we hear.

    You really don't want to get into the realms of everyone wanting to add their tiny amount of content, and the headache of tying it all together... especially if each and every one of them has a different "vision" for the product.
    Thanks Kaitlain.

    Good points. So what you are saying is let FC work on the underlying structure and communication to server, db/items/content, security, game mechanics, etc wrap it up in a closed-source, encrypted, cross platform lib with limited (restricting) graphical implementation (ie so players with access to source can't see through walls, arbitrarily change models), and only open only the rest of the graphic work/gui/etc up to the community to write their own ogre/dream/new wizbang implementations for them?

    Is that even possible?
    Shadow Ops
    Everything that we see is a shadow cast by that which we do not see.
    They'll say we're disturbing the peace, but there is no peace. What really bothers them is that we are disturbing the war.
    Tired of little elves with bows? Fed up with spell-flinging goblins? Bored to death by the solitary world of linear games? Despair not. Freedom is on its way, and its name is Anarchy Online.
    Web: http://www.shadowops-online.org | Twitter: @ShadowOpsOnline | AO: Milestones & History


  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by K1nkstaah View Post
    I used to have this CPU, and I wouldn't run vista with it.
    Though, thats simply cause Vista seems to use more juice, and I found juice was an issue with my ol 3000+.

    IMO, upgrade the PC, then any OS will run superbly on it. In which case, you can just look at all the pretty stuff and go ooh! ooh! and then laugh at people who cry over unix/linux/windows differences while you sip martinis and drive ferraris.
    I'm going to upgrade the PC, as a whole, when the new graphics engine for AO comes out. So I'm certain that I meet the requirements to run the game, and run it smooth. Also blahblah about hardware/software conflicts, like current AO engine doesn't like ATI videocards.

    Until then, I can bear the gimpy PC.

    I use linux for different reasons than just performance btw, also gotta love the desktop switching and how you can install programs with the most exotic uses in a minute, using package managers like Synaptic or Adept.
    Lupusceleri L220/30/70 Agent -- Advisor of Spartans -- equip endgame AR setup endgame def setup <3 Azs wearer of Cheree's pants
    Arrowsmith -- Arafellin -- Alphacenta -- Aesculapias -- Wolfseye -- Lysdexic


    TL5 enf twink: im out those MPs are to overpowered

    crattey: The Balance Discussion forum. Where common sense goes to die.

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by Oldskool_Ozzy View Post

    Is that even possible?
    Not even close to being advisable



    [edit: precise for clarity's sake]

    If you can get this amount of plagiarism past a major publisher, by a single person, then there's no way on earth to police third party content for being legit. Plus, AO already has an engine license they can use, and probably people in the same building who've already encountered the problems they face, and have custom made additions to the engine anyhow.

    The real problem will probably come in about 3-5 months time:

    Means: Hey, Erling, we're almost done with the tweaks to the AO build.
    Erling: Hmm, let me take a look... <6 hours later>... this reminds me of the glory days when Runar showed us Scheol for the first time!!11!1!! *excited look*
    Means: That's good, right?
    Erling: I think if we re-did all the textures, AO would once again totally rock. Let's not release it until its done [tm].
    Means: *looks like he's just seen a puppy drowned* Can I steal some resources from AoC / Dreamfall, please?


    Apologies to real people cited in this totally fictional hypothetical scenario
    Last edited by Kaitlain; May 25th, 2009 at 15:26:00.

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