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Thread: Attack Rating is Affecting weapons past MBS atm

  1. #1

    Attack Rating is Affecting weapons past MBS atm

    All AR caps are tested using 2600 and 2750 MBS weapons
    If I don't do them all a once I'll add the rest later

    Agent AR cap for agent is 3700 with Gankar Rifle
    The current problem with calcing agent damage at different AR amounts is the Dmg to AR ratio constantly changes in 100-200 AR intervals by alot.

    Keep AR cap is 3550 with Pride of the Xan
    Keep dmg to AR ratio seems consistent but I'll test more damage ranges to confirm

    Trader AR cap is 3600 with Peh'wer+troaler pistols

    Soldier AR cap is 3550 (Used shotgun and RE and both got the same AR cap so it might not be weapon type caps) *Used Greed of the Xan and Ofab silverback and got the same AR cap suggesting the AR cap is prof based*

    Crat AR cap is 3650 with Lust of the Xan

    Enfo AR cap is 3550 with Gluttony of the Xan (The pattern I'm seeing is Tank/High AR profs have the lowest AR cap, DD profs have the highest AR cap and Support profs are in the middle.)

    Advy AR cap is 3500 with both Hatred of the Xan and Sparkling Scimitar of Spetses (Strongly suggests weapon MBS is not being factored into final AR cap at all)
    Jobe Surveyor Personal Pistol ql 150 with 900 MBS - 12 dmg increase from 1793 AR to 1943 AR. This is quite troubling to say the least.

    MA AR cap is 3600 with Kuma Tonfa

    Fixer AR cap is 3525 with Ofab Hawk


    *If anyone wants to test some profs with others weapons I'll add it to this post and clean it up abit.*
    Last edited by Rockdizzle; Mar 25th, 2015 at 14:06:34. Reason: later testing #3

  2. #2
    Well, the hard cap thing at least isn't new. I've always wondered how it varied from prof to prof. Do the 2750-3501 multipliers for hatred/ssos jive with the ones in this post? IIRC, those numbers were averaged from tests with Fleshchopper and CDR.

    Also surprised to see a cap for MA, since last I checked fist damage scaled pretty predictably well past 4000 AR and I wouldn't have guessed that would be something weapon-dependent.

    Weird.

  3. #3
    TBH it doesn't, I'm testing on a fixer atm and it seems the percentage is going up from like 20% at 1000-1100 AR to as high as 60% at 1300-1400.

    Been testing different stuff but Srompu has been doing Agent from from like sub 2k AR all the way up to 3700 and comfirms that its a complete mess.

    Also the problem is that the Hard cap is being reached with weapons that have MBS caps as low as 1
    Last edited by Rockdizzle; Mar 25th, 2015 at 04:05:59.

  4. #4
    Probably just experimenting with some changes to AR system, can't say I'm disappointed , the whole thing has long needed a revision.

  5. #5
    I noticed it back when 18.7 was first patched to test back in February on keep but didn't say anything until recently since I wasn't certain as to what was happening

  6. #6
    *220 naked fixer*
    Ofab Hawk Mk 1
    Quality level: 125
    Damage: 99-166(109)
    Max beneficial skill: 1093

    Pure SMG weaponskill nothing else(each time I add stuff to setup like imps/perks I retest a few damage ranges back for consistency)
    Code:
    You hit Punching Bug for 256 points of energy damage.  880 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 260 points of energy damage.  900 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 326 points of energy damage.  920 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 331 points of energy damage.  940 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 336 points of energy damage.  960 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 341 points of energy damage.  980 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 346 points of energy damage.  1000 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 348 points of energy damage.  1020 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 349 points of energy damage.  1040 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 350 points of energy damage.  1060 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 351 points of energy damage.  1080 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 352 points of energy damage.  1100 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 353 points of energy damage.  1120 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 355 points of energy damage.  1140 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 357 points of energy damage.  1160 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 358 points of energy damage.  1180 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 360 points of energy damage.  1200 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 361 points of energy damage.  1220 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 363 points of energy damage.  1240 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 365 points of energy damage.  1260 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 367 points of energy damage.  1280 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 370 points of energy damage.  1300 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 372 points of energy damage.  1320 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 374 points of energy damage.  1340 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 376 points of energy damage.  1360 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 378 points of energy damage.  1380 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 380 points of energy damage.  1400 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 381 points of energy damage.  1420 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 382 points of energy damage.  1440 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 383 points of energy damage.  1460 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 384 points of energy damage.  1480 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 386 points of energy damage.  1500 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 387 points of energy damage.  1520 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 388 points of energy damage.  1540 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 389 points of energy damage.  1560 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 390 points of energy damage.  1580 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 392 points of energy damage.  1600 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 392 points of energy damage.  1620 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 393 points of energy damage.  1640 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 394 points of energy damage.  1660 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 395 points of energy damage.  1680 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 396 points of energy damage.  1700 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 396 points of energy damage.  1720 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 397 points of energy damage.  1740 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 398 points of energy damage.  1760 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 399 points of energy damage.  1780 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 399 points of energy damage.  1800 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 400 points of energy damage.  1820 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 401 points of energy damage.  1840 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 402 points of energy damage.  1860 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 402 points of energy damage.  1880 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 402 points of energy damage.  1900 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 404 points of energy damage.  1920 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 405 points of energy damage.  1940 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 406 points of energy damage.  1960 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 408 points of energy damage.  1980 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 409 points of energy damage.  2000 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 412 points of energy damage.  2020 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 414 points of energy damage.  2040 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 416 points of energy damage.  2060 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 418 points of energy damage.  2080 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 420 points of energy damage.  2100 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 423 points of energy damage.  2120 AR
    You hit Punching Bug for 425 points of energy damage.  2140 AR
    Acouple things I noticed is that it goes up until 1400 AR and slowly drops from 2.5/20 ratio to below 1/20 ratio at 1700+ AR, *it's starts to go up again at 1900+ to almost 2.5/20 ratio at 2140 AR*
    Last edited by Rockdizzle; Mar 25th, 2015 at 05:44:22. Reason: more ar ranges #3

  7. #7
    I'm currently too sleep-deprived to actually look at or think about the numbers you have posted and determine if this post I'm typing is actually relevant, but it sounds like you're describing how it's been since SL for most profs: damage drops off relatively gradually until ~1.4k then tends toward a series of sigmoid curves every couple hundred points.

  8. #8
    It's kinda like that but after 2.5k AR it starts jumping all over the place and doesn't really match your numbers. It could just be prof specific but I don't have numbers for more than 2 other profs to confirm.

    Damage scaling is the last thing I'm worried about atm tho, currently every weapon regardless of ql essentially has 3.5k+ MBS which is part of why I made this post the other being to figure out each profs Hard cap.

  9. #9
    The numbers you've posted match pretty much perfectly with what the data from these two threads predict: fix, adv.

    So yeah, the interesting bits here are whether or not the apparent disabling of MBS is intended/planned and, considering it's a feature that's gone almost entirely unremarked upon until now, the hard caps. Any word from Michizure on the MBS deal yet? Intended or not, I say leave it off and see what happens.

  10. #10
    I got a reply from him saying he has someone looking into it. By the sound of it it was never intended.
    Last edited by Rockdizzle; Mar 26th, 2015 at 19:38:17.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Rockdizzle View Post
    I got a reply from him saying he has someone looking into it. By the sound of it it was never intended.
    Boring!

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Rockdizzle View Post
    I got a reply from him saying he has someone looking into it. By the sound of it it was never intended.
    My understanding is this has been in-place but never extensively studied for quite a while, or is that incorrect?

    If so some care would need to be taken, AR affects a ton of things in the game and if we've gotten used to this system, even if it's unintended, there could be some serious balance ramifications!

  13. #13
    I doubt anyone on the AO team planned to have weapons like panther/Jobe pistol able to be capped at 3.5k AR lol, ofc I'm sure someone fiddled with the code awhile ago to try and make it more stable/smooth but likely messed something up and didn't tell anyone leaving us to find out about it and have Michi fix their mistake.
    >Old SL nano nerf comes to mind here.

    Re: Attack Rating is not working correctly
    "Hello Rockdizzle,

    I'll have someone dig deeper into this and try to gain a better grasp of what is going on and/or what has changed under 18.7. I can't guarantee a confirm/deny on if there's a bug afoot, but if we identify an issue, we will resolve it."

    incase anyone wanted to know what he said.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Scum View Post
    I'm currently too sleep-deprived to actually look at or think about the numbers you have posted and determine if this post I'm typing is actually relevant, but it sounds like you're describing how it's been since SL for most profs: damage drops off relatively gradually until ~1.4k then tends toward a series of sigmoid curves every couple hundred points.
    I'm actually working on this on-and-off. It appears sigmoidal, but is actually piece-wise defined, at least after ~1700.
    I haven't figured out a final formula, but here's what I know for sure:

    0) +damage is unaffected by the weapon template or AR.

    1) AAO and weaponskill act the same.

    2) For a weapon, the damage is proportional to the weapon damage template at all AR levels. If your crit is 700 and your min is 350, you won't do twice the damage with the crit. However, the damage scaling for your AR is twice that for crit as for min, throughout the entire AR range.

    3) There's a series of templates with different damage scalings. I don't have an absolute formula, but the relative scaling is as follows, for Agent.
    ????-2200: 1
    2200-2550: 2
    2550-3000: 1
    3000-3300: 2
    3300-3500: 2/3rds
    3500-3650: 4/3rds
    3650-3700: Non-linear, possibly because various roundoffs approaching AR cap.
    3700: AR cap for Agent.

    4) There's another factor, possibly weapon-dependent, which completes the formula.
    The damage formula has a form w(1+n*s*AR)+damage+...,where "..." is previous tiers of damage calculation, "w" is the weapon damage in the database template, n is the multiplier from point 3) above, and "AR" is your weapon AR. The factor "s" is what I don't know, and am not sure how it relates.

    For the rebuilt SPS, s is 6E-4, or (3/5)/1000. For the Gan'Kar, it's about 5.28E04, or (37/70)/1000. Comparing to SRPS, which is (42/70)/1000, there's a remarkable conclusion that the SRPS has BETTER damage scaling than the Gan'Kar. That is, if the SRPS were changed to the weapon template of the Gan'Kar, it would do MORE damage. I'm assuming there's at least one, possibly two integer components to the multiplier, and that there's a single factor which changes it between weapons. Possibly this comes from MBS, possibly from the weapon damage templates, and possibly from a "magic secret table."

    In the 5.28, I get some variations but I commonly see the sequence 142857 in the decimals, which suggests an integer division by 7.



    I'm going to figure out point 4) next. I'm open to input or data on
    a) Verifying/correcting the above results
    b) The 0-1800 range for Agent.
    b) The >3500 AR multiplier scaling for other professions
    c) The mystery multiplier in point 4)
    Last edited by srompu; Mar 29th, 2015 at 08:06:31. Reason: grammar

  15. #15
    Just tested MA fist damage on my Agent and can confirm that the hard cap does in fact affect fists, not having weapons on didn't affect fists either.

    You hit Punching Bag for 10146 points of melee damage. Critical hit! 3730 AR with concentration

    You hit Punching Bag for 10146 points of melee damage. Critical hit! 3880 AR with concentration and sphere

  16. #16
    Srompu: All this "s" business sounds pretty fishy. Feel like dumping a bunch of data on us?

    Rockdizzle: Can you (or anybody) confirm that there is no hard-cap in effect for Martial Artist (the prof) fists?

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Scum View Post
    Rockdizzle: Can you (or anybody) confirm that there is no hard-cap in effect for Martial Artist (the prof) fists?
    I can.

    There never has been and looking at 18.7 never will be. MA fists are a seperate weapon unto themselves, which increases in QL as your skill in MA does, you can see this with the AUNO database

    You can see that Here.
    And a more in-depth explanation of how MA fists works Here.
    Pricecuts - 220 Trader
    Feel free to contact me via PM or in-game.

    Raggy - 220 Bureaucrat || Raggeh - 220 Fixer | Back as 'Raggys' - Shade for the time being. | Nuclei - 217 Nanotechnician || Nanobiology - 214 Doctor

    Tip #743: As noted in Tip #244, tea bags have an infinite variety of uses. However, there's always one jerk who will want to give you crap over drinking tea. Particularly if in a new town, use this as an opportunity to assert yourself. Any drunken idiot can win a bar fight. It takes a real man to win a bar fight while enjoying a cup of Earl Grey.

  18. #18
    MA cap = 3600
    teamed with crat for AAO so I can remove AR without lowering template.
    2943 MA
    3520 AR 3740 with moonmist

    You hit Punching Bag for 9795 points of fire damage. Critical hit! 3740 AR with Motivational Speech: Heroic Measures

    You hit Punching Bag for 9795 points of fire damage. Critical hit! 3640 AR without Motivational Speech: Heroic Measures

    both with and without weapons
    Last edited by Rockdizzle; Mar 30th, 2015 at 00:22:13.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Rockdizzle View Post
    MA cap = 3600
    teamed with crat for AAO so I can remove AR without lowering template.
    2943 MA
    3520 AR 3740 with moonmist

    You hit Punching Bag for 9795 points of fire damage. Critical hit! 3740 AR with Motivational Speech: Heroic Measures

    You hit Punching Bag for 9795 points of fire damage. Critical hit! 3640 AR without Motivational Speech: Heroic Measures
    This is very odd.

    MA Fists literally have no MBS tied to them, there must be another reason for an AR cap to exist.
    Pricecuts - 220 Trader
    Feel free to contact me via PM or in-game.

    Raggy - 220 Bureaucrat || Raggeh - 220 Fixer | Back as 'Raggys' - Shade for the time being. | Nuclei - 217 Nanotechnician || Nanobiology - 214 Doctor

    Tip #743: As noted in Tip #244, tea bags have an infinite variety of uses. However, there's always one jerk who will want to give you crap over drinking tea. Particularly if in a new town, use this as an opportunity to assert yourself. Any drunken idiot can win a bar fight. It takes a real man to win a bar fight while enjoying a cup of Earl Grey.

  20. #20
    The problem probably ties in with the current problem with AR and MBS on test.

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