We Need An Argument

[Uaintseenme]

So I decided that bickering and arguing amongst ourselves is probably a better state of affairs than the stagnant state of limbo our forum curently finds itself in.

With no posts at all. Congratulations are in order, all engineer issues have been resolved (apparently).

Now its been so long since anythign changed for us that I pretty much just accepted all our bugs and problems and issues as being "features of the profession".

What ARE our issues right now, what are our problems, what needs fixing and I think most importantly, do we really want the current dev team messing with us, or is it better to keep quiet and hope no one notices us and decides to break Engineers beyond recognition.

Also, let completely ignore any of the proposed "rebalance topics" because quite aside from being hopelessly outdated concepts, they also arent ever going to happen.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Well one rebalance topic that no engineer in his right mind wants to think about is the DVP thing.

DVP now is -1210 AAO, but after rebalance I think it's being scaled back to -250 AAO.

So that's a pretty big hit to survivability in PVM, and quite frankly it's the single most useful tool in PVM.

I used to love playing enf+engi in pande... for trash clearing it's an unbeatable combo.

Hit mongo on enf, alt tab DVP on engi, it's like giving DOF+limber+CIB to your tank... then you got some sweet damage to smash out on the mob of choice.

I love my engi, but our PVM toolkit is lacking (i.e. soloing is difficult) and with the rebalance proposals I've seen, it's not looking any better.

[Pafpuf]

It's weird that your biggest grief is pvm soloability

[Uaintseenme]

I can honestly say at this point that the currently available rebalance doc dont worry me in the slightest.
I'd be willing to bet that almost nothing *important* on there will ever see the light of day.

If anything, given the rather random changes being made and anounced of late, im worried that if any rebalance ever actualy happens, we'll be even worse of than those doc's suggest now.
Since our "Beloved" Game Director has a vision, a very narrow, short sighted, and irefutably DUMB vision of what AO should actualy be.

I dont realy see a problem with our current pvm abbility though, while i agree that its harder for us to solo certain inf dynas and the like, than say crats, I thikn thats more an issue of crats needing a sound beating with the nerf bat than us needing improvement to our tools. (I say this as someone who uses a crat for all my farming)

[Notcrattey]

The biggest issue is improved pet steal back not being an available nano.

[Phatkeep]

The biggest issue is improved pet steal back not being an available nano.

Are you sure about that? :>

[Ahndracorvid]

Apparently this is the only prof that didn't get a little section of its own in the huge-ass patch notes on TestLive. Ha ha, we rolled engineers, yadda yadda.

[Ophiuchus]

Well given this is now on Testlive proper not just Beta, and doesn't appear to have had many changes from the last Beta iteration I'll go ahead and say that the MP pet nano consolidation hasn't happened for Engis - and neither has anything else. (That makes the NPE for baby engis rather horrible I might add.) The only things that will have changed for Engis are things that were changed for other profs but affect us such as the pet nanos. We aren't a priority I guess. So now we wait to see where the nerfbat swings...

[Uaintseenme]

actualy, this does not bode well for us at all.

The one thing this would almost certainly suggest is that we didnt get any of our nano's changed/nerfed at this point because that idiotic idea of giving all our nano's a trade skill req is still the plan for us.

[geturmoney]

dvp is in fact one of our most useful debuffs pvm AND pvp. taking this away changes a lot to the worse! its also the only reason why someone would invite engis to a raid

[Brofist]

Engineers are the perfect class, they need no nerfs or buffs.

The lack of changes proves that.

Discuss.

[Tryptophy]

I'd still rather use almost any other toon to accomplish a task (other than tradeskills), just because of convenience.

Pets take way too long to cast and buff, and you are expected to swap tons of items to do so. A shade or a crat can do just as much damage and be ready to go in 1/4th the time. Fix that and engy is my main again.

[revenant342]

I'll second the mention of the Engie pet nano consolidation not happening, and that it does make the NPE for engineers seriously suck. With only the starting pet nano, new engineers are stuck with the same level 1 bot until they leave at 15 or even 20, and I feel like it will really turn new players off from the profession (I am still operating under the blindly optimistic premise that new engine + steam release = tons of new first-time players).

I really, really, REALLY hope that the "Pets now require tradeskills" thing is a joke. Not only would it be completely out-of-line with how the rest of the game works, but it would require me to swap between my nano and tradeskill gear to get ready for a raid, just for normal play. Not even going to get into what a pain in the butt lower-level engie twinking would require since the wrangle+mocham combo wouldn't work and would have to be a maestro+???(Org HQ lab!?) for the same benefit.

I'd support ALL of our nano requirements getting shifted to tradeskills, but only if our tradeskills also counted for evades. I DODGE YOU WITH THE POWER OF SCIENCE!!!

[Ophiuchus]

Haha, yeah if we could get our defensive stats replaced with tradeskills too then and ONLY then would I consider tradeskills for nanos etc acceptable. But in all seriousness, I'm really hoping the silence on the engy front is because we're sneaking in under the radar and not because the entire profession is about to have a complete redesign unveiled

[Tryptophy]

I'm missing the logic on tradeskills = evades request. How do nanoskills add to evades currently? The old design did indicate that all of our nanos would be tradeskills OR nanoskills - but then why would you want to use nanoskills when you could raise tradeskills and be able to build everything with few swaps and have all that IP left over for whatever you want? You already need at least ME to use idbep or to land Mechanic perks, now you get double your money. Even though there are technically better setups, I think the vast majority of engineers go this route.

Aside from having to visit org HQ (yeah, that is lame, and the pet might actually de-level once you zone(?) but the same would apply to wrangle running out) the amount you can boost tradeskills is roughly the same as nanoskills and requires less NCU. Engis get more tradeskill support than nanoskill support from perks, and look out if they ever fix Gadgeteer perk actions.

I don't want to do all the math right now but isn't the IP cost for tradeskills overall much lower than for nanoskills (especially those other than ts/mc/mm)? And the very same armor (arithmetic) adds to both skills so you don't need to farm anything else - and engis get more items that add to tradeskills than nanoskills. And with comp mastery you get the convenience of doing one of the buffs yourself. I really don't understand where the hate for this idea comes from.

Edit: I just realized the org HQ thing is also a big nerf to froobs. But FC is pretty clear they don't care about that at this stage. Still in the overall balance I must be missing something.

[revenant342]

Pet wouldn't de-level, as far as I can tell the leveling is just to cast. And yes, it would be a major Nerf to froobs or even paid accounts in orgs without large HQs. The comment about evades was intended as a joke.

As far as the overall switch goes, it would be nice to get rid of all of our nanoskills and dump all that IP into evades and such, but I just don't see the motivation behind making such a drastic, unusual change for a system that's been working well for over a decade. I'd also have to see how this would affect my build because my current +nanoskills build is a pretty decent compatible setup (no alphas/betas on my 220, full disclosure), and I can already self all my nanos AND do every trade skill process I know of except pharma tech.

[MajorOutage]

I really don't understand where the hate for this idea comes from.

It's a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

Or, rather, didn't, until Funcom decided to rebrand the game as Casuals Online.

[Ophiuchus]

Pet wouldn't de-level, as far as I can tell the leveling is just to cast. And yes, it would be a major Nerf to froobs or even paid accounts in orgs without large HQs. The comment about evades was intended as a joke.

Shhhhh! Don't mention froob nerf - that's a red flag to a bull and it will surely happen if someone from FC see this

(I'm not even kidding, FC are removing various existing points of functionality from froobs with 18.7.)

[Gargle]

or is it better to keep quiet and hope no one notices us and decides to break Engineers beyond recognition.

Someone once said that the best defence is offence. Let's complain about Bureaucrats until they get nerfed beyond recognition and have to ride around on futuristic unicycles handing out mail to far outposts. It can't hurt, will take the attention of engineers.

[Uaintseenme]

Someone once said that the best defence is offence. Let's complain about Bureaucrats until they get nerfed beyond recognition and have to ride around on futuristic unicycles handing out mail to far outposts. It can't hurt, will take the attention of engineers.

didnt you see the patch notes for test? this has pretty much happened allready, only its a tricycle, not a unicycle they are being forced to ride around since balancing on three wheels requires less skill.