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Thread: Friday with Means - February 6th, 2009

  1. #141
    Tbh, I fail to see why there should be an extended downtime for a full reset if they're going to cost money in the first place. At worst I'd go with 24 hours, and ideally 2 hours.

    Given that the major reason behind a full reset is gear, why should we be forced to wait pointlessly on our arses simply because of an unncessary timer? Make the fee high enough to discourage abuse and eliminate the timer entirely, or at the very least make the timer something that isn't ludicrous. 2-6 hours should be quite sufficient if you absolutely *must* have a lockout.

    As it is, there are already too many pointless exercises of annoyance in waiting periods that ought be dealt with, such as the ridiculous equip time on most belts. How much of an invalid do you have to be to take over a minute to put on a belt? They serve no real purpose beyond the annoyance they cause by forcing the player to wait. As the saying goes, "It's the little things that kill."

    As for fees, something between 25-200m per full reset should be sufficient; this is a luxury and as such the fee should require an appropriately scaled price based off either titlelevel or total number of perks. Additionally, an option to pay the fee using VP as an alternative should also be explored, perhaps a VP cost scaling from 1000-25000 or some such (these are just arbitrary numbers folks, put the pitchforks away).

    Anyone who wants to use the "experimentation" argument could do well to remember that iprs cost upwards of 200m (depending on your complit ofc) or a nice chunk of vp to procure after your initial batch is used up; it isn't as if having a currency hit for the purposes of experimenting is anything new.

    This is a nonessential time saver, anyone not willing to pay the fee can just as easily use the normal perk reset method and avoid the hit to the wallet.

    And as for the "what of the poor people" and "oh miserable me, for I cannot possibly accumulate said money as it is just too difficult..." people, money is not hard to make in this game. It boils down to what you are willing to invest in time, and the methods you use to make that money. There's a ton of ways to make money, if you stop thinking in a narrow minded fashion and look for the opportunities.

    If you're not willing to invest the time to pay the 'modest' fee for a perk reset, you don't need it. In a game where a set of endgame ai armour runs in the billions (and that's not even counting what you'll spend on other gear if you don't farm it yourself) the idea of something like 25m-200m is a drop in the ocean.
    Last edited by lusthorne; Feb 7th, 2009 at 19:44:07.
    Lusthorne - 220 Keeper | Isellthings - 220 Trader - PvP-Config
    Soupknotsie - 220 Doctor | Blabberus - 220 Crat
    and many more

    Boost outdoor sk in Pen/Inf or adjust missions for mixed factions
    A different approach to GTH
    Quote Originally Posted by Sterva View Post
    If you felt that I was implying that you are an idiot, it's probably because you are in fact, an idiot.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by lusthorne View Post
    Tbh, I fail to see why there should be an extended downtime for a full reset if they're going to cost money in the first place. At worst I'd go with 24 hours, and ideally 2 hours.

    Given that the major reason behind a full reset is gear, why should we be forced to wait pointlessly on our arses simply because of an unncessary timer? Make the fee high enough to discourage abuse and eliminate the timer entirely, or at the very least make the timer something that isn't ludicrous. 2-6 hours should be quite sufficient if you absolutely *must* have a lockout.

    As it is, there are already too many pointless exercises of annoyance in waiting periods that ought be dealt with, such as the ridiculous equip time on most belts. How much of an invalid do you have to be to take over a minute to put on a belt? They serve no real purpose beyond the annoyance they cause by forcing the player to wait. As the saying goes, "It's the little things that kill."

    As for fees, something between 25-200m per full reset should be sufficient; this is a luxury and as such the fee should require an appropriately scaled price based off either titlelevel or total number of perks. Additionally, an option to pay the fee using VP as an alternative should also be explored, perhaps a VP cost scaling from 1000-25000 or some such (these are just arbitrary numbers folks, put the pitchforks away).

    Anyone who wants to use the "experimentation" argument could do well to remember that iprs cost upwards of 200m (depending on your complit ofc) or a nice chunk of vp to procure after your initial batch is used up; it isn't as if having a currency hit for the purposes of experimenting is anything new.

    This is a nonessential time saver, anyone not willing to pay the fee can just as easily use the normal perk reset method and avoid the hit to the wallet.

    And as for the "what of the poor people" and "oh miserable me, for I cannot possibly accumulate said money as it is just too difficult..." people, money is not hard to make in this game. It boils down to what you are willing to invest in time, and the methods you use to make that money. There's a ton of ways to make money, if you stop thinking in a narrow minded fashion and look for the opportunities.

    If you're not willing to invest the time to pay the 'modest' fee for a perk reset, you don't need it. In a game where a set of endgame ai armour runs in the billions (and that's not even counting what you'll spend on other gear if you don't farm it yourself) the idea of something like 25m-200m is a drop in the ocean.
    Remember that you probably most likley want to use 2 within afew days so 25mil =50mil, 200=400mil.. So i think 25mil sounds better, 400mil is just insane :P

    Preferably it should be around 10 to 20mil tho, when you pass 20mil it goes from "something i can get" to "omg a second job"... strange thing that but thats AO for you -.^
    Rktim - 220/70/30 Omni Soldier.
    Imdrunknow - 157+/XX/15+ Omni MA
    Quote Originally Posted by IHaveHugeNick View Post
    Messiah has spoken.

  3. #143

    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by lusthorne View Post
    As it is, there are already too many pointless exercises of annoyance in waiting periods that ought be dealt with, such as the ridiculous equip time on most belts. How much of an invalid do you have to be to take over a minute to put on a belt? They serve no real purpose beyond the annoyance they cause by forcing the player to wait.
    Trading Mogul lasts 1 min. with that +260 Computer literacy buff it makes more sense, as it used to disable traders and agents from equipping exceptionally great belts.
    Now on the other hand, you can perk the NCU line, so you do not need to have a belt in to have Trading Mogul running.

    I hope that helped you to understand the long belt equip times better.

    Kind Regards
    Ariensky
    Humankind can not gain anything, without first giving something in return.
    To obtain; something of equal value must be lost.
    That is the 1st law of equivalent exchange


    Rubi-Ka needs: a nickel statue of an astronaut pointing at the sky
    With the description / plate saying:
    When the stars burn out and I find I lack the strength to continue...one of YOU wil pick up the flag and carry it forward.
    This really isn't a corporate product anymore...it belongs to all of us. Where it goes it up to us.

  4. #144
    Well on the perk reset part... I think it should be about set to your lvl, if you are lvl 100 for example it should be 10mil, lvl 150... 15mil, 200 20mil, and make it so you can do it every 72hrs if you have people that want to sink 10 or 15mil into reseting then so be it, why wait a week it is there credz they are using not yours.

    Also have a question,

    I know you can buy reset points for regular skills in Jobe but why are they 160ish mil each? I have a toon that need 7 of them and I can think of other thinks I could use almost a Billion credz on. Any possible way to lower the price of those? I mean you can get them for 50k VP but as of late that is a pain to get for Omni since on BS they dont like to work as a team. But that is a seperate issue .

  5. #145
    Perks perks perks

    Ok My thoughts

    Scaling perk reset costs to level=Good. But it should cap out at 80 million for the first 3 or 4 months to really burn credits out of the economy. After credit sellers get shut down and things get squared away they can lower the costs.

    Downtimes on the full perk reset.

    If this is more than 72 hours it may need to be rethought. This is giving PC's the ability to experiment with equipment on a higher level than ever before. They shouldnt be slowed down by that. On the other hand they shouldnt be able to rip them off every day.

    IP points and the changes this will cause: Unlearning devices will be more popular now i think. Usually you just reset one or two stats. Right now it seems with this setup it will be possible within the span of a week to fully reset a character. IF you have the reset points to do so. Me? I only need to reset a few stats. Still what was a 5 month project will have its duration shrunk to something a normal player can actually tolerate. This honestly allows more people to blast to 220 and earn their equipment later. Which could be a good thing.

    Overall a great friday with means. Wow.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by ArienSky View Post
    Trading Mogul lasts 1 min. with that +260 Computer literacy buff it makes more sense, as it used to disable traders and agents from equipping exceptionally great belts.
    Now on the other hand, you can perk the NCU line, so you do not need to have a belt in to have Trading Mogul running.

    I hope that helped you to understand the long belt equip times better.

    Kind Regards
    Ariensky
    Lol this is completely wrong.

    It lasts one minute, NCU unequip times are no longer than 10s. All you need is to buff up enough NCU, have 2 AI NCUs in (or just have 5 NCUs equipped) then start the belt swap.
    Member of Spartans
    Hacre/Solitus/Keeper/220/29/70 - Ninpopotamus/Solitus/NT/220/30/70 - Charmming/Opifex/Crat/220/30/70
    Quote Originally Posted by randomalpha View Post
    in the end soldier is not Op or even near from that never was never will be just for the record only keepers are the ones before soldiers on the nerfest list
    Genius at work.

  7. #147
    As far as I'm aware the original perk timers were implemented to prevent people from hotswapping perks on the fly to suit their needs, so people couldn't just swap from Nano Doctorate 7 to NR 7 with the clicks of a few buttons, so in that regard the perk reset timer makes a lot of sense.

    Now to build upon that a full reset would seem to be a step towards that, however the credit cost would then be an incentive not to abuse the system too much.

    Having it cost creds however does have some drawbacks, it's not really a very good credit sink as it could leave to poorer people feeling left out, keep it low enough they won't feel left out and you won't be able to make it high enough to be a deterrent to the richer people.

    So instead of having a credit sink, why not turn it into a repeatable quest, find a sided NPC somewhere remote who will give you a few tasks to perform, or since the perks came with SL the mobs could be in the gardens, the uests could be scaled to certain levels, if you're too high a level you'd need to speak to someone in a later garden, no level 220 toons doing the quest from nascence for example.

    On completion of the tasks you return to the npc in the safety of the garden and they will reset all your perks for you.

    That way you can insure that everyone has to earn the full perk reset without the need for credits, there's no need for a lockout timer of any kind, the length of the quest itself would be a lockout. It might be a little difficult to perform the quest after twinking, but then that makes things more fun.

    Even if the quest takes you a couple of hours playtime to complete that's 2 hours of play, not sitting around in perk reset for days at a time. Some randomisation of the specific quests could help prevent it from getting to repetitive, like you might need to clear out a dungeon somewhere in the region, not just kill the boss but clear the place (no blitzing it allowed), but overall I think it would be a more interesting manner of gaining a full perk reset.
    Ebondevil - Omni Level 220 Agent on Atlantean, Feel free to contact me any time if you have questions, in game or out.
    Varinox - Omni Level 220 Meta-Physicist on Atlantean
    Yamarra - Omni Level 150 Shade on Atlantean

    Feel free to send me any tell in game or a Private Message if you require anything.

  8. #148
    Removed
    Last edited by Means; Feb 8th, 2009 at 08:53:14. Reason: Anoying and rude. I generally feel everyone is entitled to their opinion. I'm making an exception for you.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebondevil View Post
    As far as I'm aware the original perk timers were implemented to prevent people from hotswapping perks on the fly to suit their needs, so people couldn't just swap from Nano Doctorate 7 to NR 7 with the clicks of a few buttons, so in that regard the perk reset timer makes a lot of sense.

    Now to build upon that a full reset would seem to be a step towards that, however the credit cost would then be an incentive not to abuse the system too much.

    Having it cost creds however does have some drawbacks, it's not really a very good credit sink as it could leave to poorer people feeling left out, keep it low enough they won't feel left out and you won't be able to make it high enough to be a deterrent to the richer people.

    So instead of having a credit sink, why not turn it into a repeatable quest, find a sided NPC somewhere remote who will give you a few tasks to perform, or since the perks came with SL the mobs could be in the gardens, the uests could be scaled to certain levels, if you're too high a level you'd need to speak to someone in a later garden, no level 220 toons doing the quest from nascence for example.

    On completion of the tasks you return to the npc in the safety of the garden and they will reset all your perks for you.

    That way you can insure that everyone has to earn the full perk reset without the need for credits, there's no need for a lockout timer of any kind, the length of the quest itself would be a lockout. It might be a little difficult to perform the quest after twinking, but then that makes things more fun.

    Even if the quest takes you a couple of hours playtime to complete that's 2 hours of play, not sitting around in perk reset for days at a time. Some randomisation of the specific quests could help prevent it from getting to repetitive, like you might need to clear out a dungeon somewhere in the region, not just kill the boss but clear the place (no blitzing it allowed), but overall I think it would be a more interesting manner of gaining a full perk reset.

    I think there would be people who wouldn't mind this at all(includes self), but no matter how good the idea is Ebo...you know there will follow the cries and the whining....

    You have a nice idea there though...imo
    Eaglestrider 220/16 Soli Agent
    Lockd 220/20 NM Engi
    *alts,alts, & more alts *

    General of: ShadowOps

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Perfekt View Post
    But you can keep playing the game if you like....I'll leave you with your credit spammers and broken /ignore system when jumpgate/star trek arrives.
    Or you can f**k off now and spare us your doomsayer like ramblings.
    Member of Spartans
    Hacre/Solitus/Keeper/220/29/70 - Ninpopotamus/Solitus/NT/220/30/70 - Charmming/Opifex/Crat/220/30/70
    Quote Originally Posted by randomalpha View Post
    in the end soldier is not Op or even near from that never was never will be just for the record only keepers are the ones before soldiers on the nerfest list
    Genius at work.

  11. #151
    i can haz recon armor?
    Former Assistant Director of Pack of Noobs

    Fake Friday with Means, and it worked!

  12. #152
    I'll take a full set of recon armor as well plx

  13. #153
    Removed
    Last edited by Means; Feb 8th, 2009 at 08:53:59. Reason: Same as above

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Perfekt View Post
    If you can't handle the truth, put me on forum /ignore. You know good and well they aren't fixing the game where it counts. Adding shiny objects doesn't fix what needs to be fixed in this game.
    Yeah of course not. The bugs that have been fixed clearly fixed themselves.
    Member of Spartans
    Hacre/Solitus/Keeper/220/29/70 - Ninpopotamus/Solitus/NT/220/30/70 - Charmming/Opifex/Crat/220/30/70
    Quote Originally Posted by randomalpha View Post
    in the end soldier is not Op or even near from that never was never will be just for the record only keepers are the ones before soldiers on the nerfest list
    Genius at work.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Hacre View Post
    Yeah of course not. The bugs that have been fixed clearly fixed themselves.
    And the ones that haven't have been around for years.

  16. #156
    For once I disagree with you Ebondevil

    I would rather pay credits than do a quests, as credits can be obtained in many ways, you can choose the way you find most fun, whereas the quest would be the same dull one again and again.
    Nice suggestion though, as a compromise between credit and time sink.

    For something completely different:
    Quote Originally Posted by Hacre View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ArienSky View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by lusthorne View Post
    As it is, there are already too many pointless exercises of annoyance in waiting periods that ought be dealt with, such as the ridiculous equip time on most belts. How much of an invalid do you have to be to take over a minute to put on a belt? They serve no real purpose beyond the annoyance they cause by forcing the player to wait.
    Trading Mogul lasts 1 min. with that +260 Computer literacy buff it makes more sense, as it used to disable traders and agents from equipping exceptionally great belts.
    Now on the other hand, you can perk the NCU line, so you do not need to have a belt in to have Trading Mogul running.

    I hope that helped you to understand the long belt equip times better.

    Kind Regards
    Ariensky
    Lol this is completely wrong.

    It lasts one minute, NCU unequip times are no longer than 10s. All you need is to buff up enough NCU, have 2 AI NCUs in (or just have 5 NCUs equipped) then start the belt swap.
    I have underlined two words, to help your reading.
    It is not wrong, apparently you do not know of the belts before AI, which is what lusthorne talked about.

    You can see an example here, here, here and it continues here.

    *edit* just to be sure the point is clear:
    Blackmane's Belt Component Platform, the 20 sec. equip belt you get at the ICC shuttle port came with AI.
    Before AI you started in BackYards and got no such belt.
    *edit end*

    Kind Regards
    Ariensky

    PS. It is a shame to ignore people, but Hacre, it is a waste of my time reading your posts, as you seem to take no consideration into research/think on the matter at hand.
    So if I do not reply to any further posts of yours, you know why. That it is not to be rude, but because I do not see your messages.
    Last edited by ArienSky; Feb 8th, 2009 at 04:53:17.
    Humankind can not gain anything, without first giving something in return.
    To obtain; something of equal value must be lost.
    That is the 1st law of equivalent exchange


    Rubi-Ka needs: a nickel statue of an astronaut pointing at the sky
    With the description / plate saying:
    When the stars burn out and I find I lack the strength to continue...one of YOU wil pick up the flag and carry it forward.
    This really isn't a corporate product anymore...it belongs to all of us. Where it goes it up to us.

  17. #157
    Seems a little trite posting how satisfying this FWM was. I'm five pages late. Opted to go to bed with a macro running (naughty naughty!) to reset some perks. Damn the lag from yesterdays downtime issues for disconnecting me at around 3am! :~<

    Mmm. That was a tasty FWM. 155 hours to until the next revelation!

    So we finally got our official answer. As it stands, CoH chests are empty. You'd have to be pretty daft to have not worked this out on your own, but no bluenamer has ever actually said so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Macrosun View Post
    ALL HAIL MEANS
    Is someone looking for a raise?
    Last edited by egadsrk2; Feb 8th, 2009 at 05:53:55.

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by egadsrk2 View Post
    Seems a little trite posting how satisfying this FWM was. I'm five pages late. Opted to go to bed with a macro running (naughty naughty!) to reset some perks. Damn the lag from yesterdays downtime issues for disconnecting me at around 3am! :~<

    Mmm. That was a tasty FWM. 155 hours to until the next revelation!

    So we finally got our official answer. As it stands, CoH chests are empty. You'd have to be pretty daft to have not worked this out on your own, but no bluenamer has ever actually said so.



    Is someone looking for a raise?
    I usually post "All Hail Macrosun!" along with his changes...

    The CoH chest is empty...but it shouldn't be. This is an issue that needs to be fixed.
    Colin Cragg
    This "Means" Cake
    Past Game Director (2008-2011)

  19. #159
    Perk Reset timers:

    When I said "Modest fee" what I meant was small and affordable. I am leaning towards an incremental system that would see the more times used..the more expensive it gets. With of course a reset of this system for everyone following significant character related updates. I also believe this cost should "cap out" at a reasonable number for players who are earning credits at end-game rates. Those who are not at end-game levels should have no difficulty paying for the first few uses of the system. I also think 72 hours is plenty long enough to wait in between resets (considering the old took much much longer.).

    The old "free" system will also not be removed. I don't see how this can be a losing proposition.

    So:
    First use: 10 000 Credits
    2nd: 100 000 Credits
    3rd: 500 000 Credits
    4th: 1 000 000 Credits
    5th: 10 000 000 Credits
    6th: 50 000 000 Credits
    7th: 100 000 000 Credits
    8th: 500 000 000 Credits
    9th: 500 000 000 Credits

    I imagine we can argue about these numbers until they are close to what we all feel is "right". Minimal use of this system shouldn't punish the poor and favour the rich. With a reset with character updates everyone should have room to experiment without breaking the bank...expecially considering the old system stil exists and this system is ONLY for complete perk resets.

    Thanks for the feedback on the idea so far...we'll have the first version of this next week.

    Where should this NPC be? Ideas?
    Colin Cragg
    This "Means" Cake
    Past Game Director (2008-2011)

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by ArienSky View Post
    For once I disagree with you Ebondevil

    I would rather pay credits than do a quests, as credits can be obtained in many ways, you can choose the way you find most fun, whereas the quest would be the same dull one again and again.
    Nice suggestion though, as a compromise between credit and time sink.

    For something completely different:
    I have underlined two words, to help your reading.
    It is not wrong, apparently you do not know of the belts before AI, which is what lusthorne talked about.

    You can see an example here, here, here and it continues here.

    *edit* just to be sure the point is clear:
    Blackmane's Belt Component Platform, the 20 sec. equip belt you get at the ICC shuttle port came with AI.
    Before AI you started in BackYards and got no such belt.
    *edit end*

    Kind Regards
    Ariensky

    PS. It is a shame to ignore people, but Hacre, it is a waste of my time reading your posts, as you seem to take no consideration into research/think on the matter at hand.
    So if I do not reply to any further posts of yours, you know why. That it is not to be rude, but because I do not see your messages.
    He's not wrong about his comments regarding belts.

    Prior to AI the still-valid method (which I might add hacre even mentioned in the post which you rushed to shoot down) that has worked since patch 14.2.1, in which if you only have 5 rk ncu's equipped, and you're quick about it, you can indeed get mogul cast, unequip the ncu's even with their timers, and begin the hotswap of the belt, which is all that is needed; at that point, it doesn't matter if mogul runs out.

    - For the record, 14.2.1 is when the equiptime on rk ncu's dropped from 30s to 10s, making the 5ncu method possible. Incidentally, this is also pre-SL, making it also well before AI.

    This is also incidentally why a trader can get on a 6 slot belt at 15 (and I reiterate that it was pre-ai).

    I might also add, that hacre has done it both with currently valid ways on level a 15 trader (I ought to know given I helped with a lot of the outside buffs), the easier of which is ofc the post-ai method with lowbie alien ncu's.

    Additionally, you might be interested to know what he didnt have ncu extensions perked either, and it is in fact a feat even attainable by a froob.

    The only "used to" that applies at all comes pre 14.2.1 when belts and ncu's both had 30s equip time. After that patch, the only hitch was the inherent delay before people figured out how to do it (ie; buff combinations, right ql ncu's, imps, etc).
    Lusthorne - 220 Keeper | Isellthings - 220 Trader - PvP-Config
    Soupknotsie - 220 Doctor | Blabberus - 220 Crat
    and many more

    Boost outdoor sk in Pen/Inf or adjust missions for mixed factions
    A different approach to GTH
    Quote Originally Posted by Sterva View Post
    If you felt that I was implying that you are an idiot, it's probably because you are in fact, an idiot.

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