Thread: Monthly Development Update - 2nd April 2014

  1. #261
    Quote Originally Posted by Vhab View Post
    It's trivial to trick an application into thinking it has focus


    This prevents roommates, families, siblings, lan parties, etc from playing with each other. That's entirely unreasonable.
    Pretty trivial to knife someone, still not legal.

    Actual players giving actual suggestions, and ex FC-employees come flying to shoot them down. More suggestions vhab less fanboying.
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  2. #262
    Ok, we get it. Mb is impossible to fix.

    Too bad!

  3. #263
    Quote Originally Posted by Humlee View Post
    Pretty trivial to knife someone, still not legal.

    Actual players giving actual suggestions, and ex FC-employees come flying to shoot them down. More suggestions vhab less fanboying.
    Would you rather have no reply and have a several-page long echo-chamber about a suggested solution that wouldn't work?

    I'm going to slightly overstep my boundaries here. These are the kind of replies that have in general made me more reluctant to post on the forums in general.

    I have always posted with the goal to clarify situations. If I end up shooting down a suggestion or branch of conversation, it's to let you know the suggestion is not feasible or comes with negative side effects.
    This isn't to silence anyone, but rather to give people an opportunity to move on to the next idea.
    I'm in this boat too, and if I had a good solution to the current situation I would have brought it forward.

    Sometimes, like we've seen in the past few pages, replies you get from devs and/or ex-devs aren't what you would like to hear.
    As unfortunate as this may be, if we're all civil and constructive about it we can keep the conversation going.
    If we shoot down disagreement with "fanboyism".. well, it just ends the conversation right there.


    Would this situation be different if there was a reliable way of detecting MB software? Maybe.
    But as is, it's hard to build a policy around something that can't be detected and worse, is almost impossible to prove.
    My posts are my own and do not reflect the views of my current nor former employers/clients

    Remco "Vhab" van Oosterhout
    Former Anarchy Online Game Programmer


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  4. #264
    Ok.. Thought about this a bit. It's good that you (FC representatives) are posting on the topic of MB.

    I'd like to extend at least a small middle finger to all those pro-MB who said FC would never care.
    This is a step on the way. All it took was a few months of mass petitions, tens of threads on the forums and mass cancelations.

    Jokes aside. I unfortunately know nearly nothing about the inner workings of AO. But.. is the client aware of other clients running on the same box? If not, could it be done? If so, perhaps a cooldown on new commands, ANY commands, could be implemented? It can be short. Perhaps 0,5 seconds. That way it won't really do anything to multiloggers and in pvm, you could still multibox. Heck you could in pvp too. Just that there won't be any insta deaths from 25 specials in 0.00001 seconds and no 4x triples in the same instant. Instead damage gets spread out. Just like it would be for a normal team that isn't using third party software to make spike damage go through the roof.

    To further nerf MB for towers specifically, make it so that /follow is reset every 10 seconds or so and give it a 5 second cooldown. Only in 25% and 5% ofcourse. Also.. we can't disable it entirely or we nerf melee too much.

    Would these ideas be impossibly hard to implement? I think they would remove the bulk of the problem without messing things up for others. Feel free to point out if I am wrong.

    ps. I'm aware that this idea would be circumvented by adding more computers instead of multilogging on one single computer. But I believe that the number of ppl who are prepared to get 5-6 computers running just to MB in ao is smaller than the ones who just install the MB-software and multilog. And given the excellent response times of GM's these days, they could easily respond to any remaining fanatics that still wanna be lame about it.

    I think just a warning to them would be plenty to make them stop immidiately.

    Whatcha think?

    Actually.. wow. I just had the best idea EVER. Because it's so simple. Make ALL towers randomly pop snares and roots. These roots and snares should be removable with ONE stim. However you need to use the CORRECT stim and there should be a special one for each different snare and root. They should be colour coded both in inventory and ncu. Four different kinds or so . And make these roots reset /follow. That way trying to control multiple toons at towers will be a ROYAL pain in the....they will be left behind and it will be very difficult to get the group together. But for a regular player, very easy to get out of. But you have to be active!
    Last edited by Phatkeep; Apr 8th, 2014 at 12:01:31.

  5. #265
    Introduce a team-wide looong cooldown for meeps if executed from 25% or lower gas. Disallow engineer warps *from* 25-% gas.
    Or simply disable meeping while flagged and give challengers an opportunity to kill them. While this won't stop it, at least it forces them to rez.

    I agree though, in my opinion, the most annoying thing is when a response force challenges a MB tower attack, they then simply 'meep' before you can even kill them. In most of these cases, from what I've observed, the goal of the boxer is clearly not to take the field which implies the only reason for doing this is that they get some sort of kick from spoiling the game for others (stating the obvious). If we can't technically identify boxers then we should focus on targeting areas that are impacted by this the most i.e towers then come up with constructive suggestions.

    AO Team, I like the poll idea however, I think that once a work item is chosen, you need to ensure that the player base is able to feed into your requirements definition via a suggestions thread.
    Last edited by Haxxxy; Apr 8th, 2014 at 11:38:34.

  6. #266
    Impossible to prevent from happening perhaps but it's rather easy to spot and petition player who uses it.

    Some workarounds as suggested by others must be considered as well. Such as disabling follow in 25% field or disabling assist (that would lead to better mass PvP in overall imo).

  7. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by Vhab View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Freor View Post
    - Don't allow AO window to take keyboard commands if the window doesn't have focus (and/or demand focus for at least say 0.1 secs for cmds to work). Can be applied to PVP only (25% or lower gas).
    It's trivial to trick an application into thinking it has focus
    Aight, like I said I have no experience on hacking AO or any other game for that matter, so that won't work then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vhab View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Freor View Post
    - Disallow multiple connections from same IP address when entering 25% or lower gas. Alternatively, use the "entering busy area" cc mechanic.
    This prevents roommates, families, siblings, lan parties, etc from playing with each other. That's entirely unreasonable.
    Alright, then don't use IP, but make the clients "talk" to other clients running on the same computer, and do it that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vhab View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Freor View Post
    - Greatly increase tower/CT HP, specially below 200. Introduce a team-wide looong cooldown for meeps if executed from 25% or lower gas. Disallow engineer warps *from* 25-% gas.
    Revamping NW is being considered in the 'you decide' thread.
    Yep it is now, though some of the parts on the short description makes one worried these would come as a trade-off with field going hot at 5 am - which brings as back to square 1 with uncontested tower "wars". That thread also got posted after I wrote my post, I don't have psychic powers to guess what devs are gonna do



    Quote Originally Posted by Vhab View Post
    Only intrusive software similar to how PunkBuster and such operates would be able to, and it takes an entire team constantly updating such software to catch only a minor portion of offenders.
    And it still wouldn't detect hardware solutions or custom software (which is pretty trivial to make).
    Lol, thanks! Co-workers prolly wondered why I suddenly started snicker

  8. #268
    Quote Originally Posted by Scottik View Post
    Impossible to prevent from happening perhaps but it's rather easy to spot and petition player who uses it.

    Some workarounds as suggested by others must be considered as well. Such as disabling follow in 25% field or disabling assist (that would lead to better mass PvP in overall imo).

    The problem with disabling assist is that in a large group with lots of healers. It would never ever end. You'd have to severely nerf healing. And I think that's not gonna happen any time soon.

    And at really large scale battles.. The initial lag fest.. wouldn't just be initial. It'd go on for 10 mins+.

  9. #269

    Refined idea for fixing NW

    Same as I posted above, with some additions and clarifications.

    The reason why MB works so well in AO pvp is because there is very little action and decisionmaking for the player to do. You can have 5 toons afk and with a few easy commands every now and then, you can be probably 90% efficient on dd. So.. let's make it a little harder by making the player make active decisions.

    For NW we need several changes. None is huge though.

    1. Put a small dmg shield on towers and give it a chance on rooting on attack (pets included).
    There should be 3-4 different roots. Duration should be quite long, around 5 minutes or so. To get out of this root, you need a special new stim. There will be 1 stim type for each root. They will have corresponding colours in your ncu. One click is enough to get out of the root and the stims should be store buyable and very cheap. Each stim locks all other stims for about the same time as FM does today. So.. you can't just spam them. You have to actively pick the right one for your rooted toon.

    This damage shield also resets /follow on EACH hit.

    Hopefully this will slow a multiboxers movement AND damg down lots and he'll have to spend much time just getting out of the roots. perhaps rnough so it won't be fun and that he will easily be killed by the opposing side because he's immobilized.

    2. Upon entering a 25% tower field, you have to use a special combat enabler to be able to attack. You just click this item in your inventory. When you do, the control tower immidialy roots you. Same roots as above. So you have to unroot your toon. Easy for one toon, more cumbersome for 5+.

    3. Make /follow timed to last about 15 seconds in pvp gas, with a 30s cooldown. That way the multiboxer has to stand around and wait to do follow again, slowing damage down.

    4. Increase HP, damage and attack rating of towers across the board, but especially at low levels. Also put some new ones with new bonuses in.

    There you go. Comment!

    ps. None of these changes would involve spying on users and most of it already exist in some form in game.
    Last edited by Phatkeep; Apr 8th, 2014 at 13:06:14.

  10. #270
    For tower-wars I would suggest:

    • land is not accessible outside levelrange when in a state of war
    • due to years of warfare the lands have geometry for blietzkrieg (for more various pvp)
    • sided savespots inside the pf. you spawn there if you die
    • towers for the entire side (f.x pre-planted sites and players obtain argumentations to add to a tower to get the buff)
    • contracts for controlling org only, as it is now


    Quote Originally Posted by Haxxxy View Post
    In most of these cases, from what I've observed, the goal of the boxer is clearly not to take the field which implies the only reason for doing this is that they get some sort of kick from spoiling the game for others (stating the obvious).
    First of all; Thank GOD they consider changing NW-mechanics.

    Secondly; Meepwars didn't occur out of nowhere, NW would be pretty dead without it.
    Last edited by leetlover; Apr 8th, 2014 at 13:28:32.
    Disclaimer: My posts should not be read by anyone.

  11. #271
    I don't know much about tower wars but it seems to me that as long as 5 or 6 orgs can supply people to attack a tower site. That the site will fall if the defenders can't muster a sufficient force to defend. Isn't that the way it is supposed to happen? If only one org could attack at a time and one org defend it would take all the excitement out of NW. Again I am not that familiar with the mechanics of Tower Wars so bear with me if I'm boring y'all. I usually just watch updates in chat and tbh its kinda cool that clan will start taking all the sites and then after a while Omni starts to take them back. I think that is how it supposed to be.

  12. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by Vhab View Post
    The collection of traffic Macrosun is talking about is the collection of all network traffic on a machine.
    Just collecting network traffic to the AO servers would not detect MB software.
    Only intrusive software similar to how PunkBuster and such operates would be able to, and it takes an entire team constantly updating such software to catch only a minor portion of offenders.
    And it still wouldn't detect hardware solutions or custom software (which is pretty trivial to make).
    Same IP, different characters, and commands coming within a certain timerange of each other = flag to investigate.

    Man, that was a tough problem to solve. Multiboxers could put in some delay to their actions to prevent the flag (which would fix most of the problems to begin with) or run a virtual machine, run that VM through a VPN, and connect a client through that, but that also adds a delay, and there's really nothing to be done about someone going through that much trouble to multibox.

  13. #273
    Quote Originally Posted by Phatkeep View Post
    Same as I posted above, with some additions and clarifications.

    The reason why MB works so well in AO pvp is because there is very little action and decisionmaking for the player to do. You can have 5 toons afk and with a few easy commands every now and then, you can be probably 90% efficient on dd. So.. let's make it a little harder by making the player make active decisions.

    For NW we need several changes. None is huge though.

    1. Put a small dmg shield on towers and give it a chance on rooting on attack (pets included).
    There should be 3-4 different roots. Duration should be quite long, around 5 minutes or so. To get out of this root, you need a special new stim. There will be 1 stim type for each root. They will have corresponding colours in your ncu. One click is enough to get out of the root and the stims should be store buyable and very cheap. Each stim locks all other stims for about the same time as FM does today. So.. you can't just spam them. You have to actively pick the right one for your rooted toon.

    This damage shield also resets /follow on EACH hit.

    Hopefully this will slow a multiboxers movement AND damg down lots and he'll have to spend much time just getting out of the roots. perhaps rnough so it won't be fun and that he will easily be killed by the opposing side because he's immobilized.

    2. Upon entering a 25% tower field, you have to use a special combat enabler to be able to attack. You just click this item in your inventory. When you do, the control tower immidialy roots you. Same roots as above. So you have to unroot your toon. Easy for one toon, more cumbersome for 5+.

    3. Make /follow timed to last about 15 seconds in pvp gas, with a 30s cooldown. That way the multiboxer has to stand around and wait to do follow again, slowing damage down.

    4. Increase HP, damage and attack rating of towers across the board, but especially at low levels. Also put some new ones with new bonuses in.

    There you go. Comment!

    ps. None of these changes would involve spying on users and most of it already exist in some form in game.
    Those sound like something that might work! Shouldn't disturb legit players too much, but a boxer would have small nightmare to either tab through clients for redoing follow, deroots or click every deroot in order and wait cooldowns. Either way, progress is slowed.

  14. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by Freor View Post
    Those sound like something that might work! Shouldn't disturb legit players too much, but a boxer would have small nightmare to either tab through clients for redoing follow, deroots or click every deroot in order and wait cooldowns. Either way, progress is slowed.
    Ty.. We could disable /follow entirely, to make it even easier to implement.. But it's annoying for melee.

  15. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by Macrosun View Post
    Please read this first part carefully.

    DISCLAIMER: I am not stating official Funcom policy, and these are my personal thoughts. I do not represent the official Funcom views on this issue, and the policies on this are mostly not decided by the AO team at all anyway.



    From an entirely technical stadpoint, and without saying multilogging/boxing (which are essentially the same thing) is bad or good, I don't really see how you expect to be able to tell the difference. Multiboxing refers to using multiple computers, but you can just as easily "multibox" using a single computer and very similar software, and this is not even taking into account someone just playing several clients at the same time without any software at all.

    I am not going to argue either side in this debate, but there are many reasons most MMOs do not "ban" multiboxing. One such reason being there is no reliable way to "prove" that you are multiboxing without capturing all your network traffic and analyzing it, and even if we did (which would be against many laws in many countries, not to mention the amount of work it would take), someone could circumvent that in about 5 minutes and force us to patch again to detect it. If someone has a reliable technical solution that is not illegal, and can not be trivially circumvented, please let me know and we'll look into it.

    Lets imagine we somehow made a solution where multiboxing was banned, and was detected by the system reliably; Now we have to look at people doing the same thing using only one computer. Should we just disallow/ban playing multiple characters on the same computer? What about bank characters, mules, and so on? If we don't fix the "single computer" issue, we will have the exact same problem as multiboxing; people will still die to gangs controlled by one person.

    If we want to "ban" multiboxing, the only way I see we could accomplish that is to not let any similar accounts log in at the same time. For example if you use the same credit card, have the same name, or the same address, you will not be able to log in those accounts at the same time. We could also make it so that the client does not allow you to run more than one copy on the same machine (to prevent "multiboxing" on the same machine). This solution would of course also prevent you from logging on your mules, banks, and using multilogging in PvE and I really doubt that's what you wanted. Someone could just use fake names and other people's credit cards to get around it anyway.


    It's true that there could be a policy stating multilogging and multiboxing are forbidden in any PvP situation, but this also as many corner cases and problems. We would have to forbid any player controlling more than one character in any PvP situation for this to be a viable policy, and it would have to be investigated on a case by case basis for every PvP encounter. This would end up being a huge amount of customer service time/work, because I'm willing to bet anyone who feels they died "unfairly" will use this in a petition, true or not.
    As I said there are many corner cases as well: What if you're PvEing with your 3 accounts and someone gets you flagged, should you now be banned? How can we tell if you were intending to PvP or not? Does it depend on if you lose or win the fight?
    I'm sure there are a large number of issues that I haven't thought of as well.


    Finally I also want to point out that the people who are staging a "protest" by cancelling, are not really accomplishing anything useful. While I can't and won't speak for management, I doubt they will take into account that some of the lost revenue is from this "protest" when they look at the declining revenue and decide the future direction of the project.
    Thank you. First reasonable post in ages. Kudos to you and Vhab to be the voice of reason in the time where all common sense seems to be lost. None of the things that either of you has said was new or pointing out anything beyond the obvious, but it seems people needed someone to lay it out for them nontheless.

    There is no feasable solution to allow multilogging and not allow multiboxing. Other than in game surveillance. Which puts you guys in a really awkward position. People demand something that is technically not possible yet totally loose their head over it. I think it would help if FC - and not you personally would now decide and clearly state the policy on following so there will be no doubt about what might happen or not happen:
    -is multilogging ok?
    -is the use of third party programs ok?
    -is multiboxing ok?

    Then people who disagree can leave, and the people who stay can focus on the game.

    If FC actually decides to take the thin line between multiboxing in pve and pvp or to allow multilogging and condemn multiboxing...it may calm things down momentarily but it seems like a nonsense plan to me...

    Oh and for the people who think assist or follow is the problem: check out wow mb videos. No problem to cope with a lack of follow or assist.
    Last edited by Xootch; Apr 8th, 2014 at 16:35:12.

  16. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalBath View Post
    It doesn't. It's a 2 minute workaround.
    I embrace solutions not excuses, if you have a better start then post it please. I can think of plenty of excuses myself to not try anything and be apathetic toward any attempt at fix.
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  17. #277
    Quote Originally Posted by Psikie View Post
    I embrace solutions not excuses, if you have a better start then post it please. I can think of plenty of excuses myself to not try anything and be apathetic toward any attempt at fix.
    Firstly, I don't have a problem with multiboxing. I don't care for finding solutions to it myself and won't waste my time on such a complex situation that might not even be a problem.

    Secondly, do you prefer to have your non-working, almost entirely technically baseless suggestions to be ignored and you being lead into a false sense of security or being told from someone with a more technical background that it doesn't work and you have to think of something else? (doesn't have to be me! look at Vhab or Macrosun for people who know a lot more than I ever will and have done it too!)
    Think about it! We're actually helping by telling you it does not work and that you (or someone else) needs to come up with something better!

    FC has never come out against multiboxing. You all suggest things under the presumption that they will despite most major MMO's not doing so. What if FC embraces multiboxing? Shouldn't you ask them about their stance on it before suggesting anything pro/against MB?

    Again, I don't multibox. I have dual-logged in 1 PC in the past. I don't think multiboxing is an issue with much greater population numbers and see it in AO as an after-effect of the low population issues. I want those solved instead and multiboxing will be a much lesser issue then. This is *my* personal stance, based on playing and alpha/beta'ing multiple MMO's over the years and seeing multiboxing done on nearly all of them.


    A last point for those who seem to not grasp what a 3rd party tool can do.
    They can detect anything on your screen. They can react accordingly and click stims and popups, regardless of name or color or NCU buff related to it. They can do so faster than many players can, too!
    Also, random roots that require a stim would change normal player PvP quite a lot and penalize melee even more than they already are in this game.

    Removing /follow would not help as games without it are still multiboxed frequently every day.

    If you personally want to help stop multiboxing/multilogging/etc, study it. Research it deeply and look for solutions afterwards. Look at what 3rd party tools do, look at what multiboxers across multiple games do. Check what bots do as well, for a wider technical knowledge of automation software.

    If you come to a valid solution afterwards suggest it and be ready for constructive criticism that can help improve it.


    EDIT: I am 100% FOR the ban of 3rd party tools that interact directly with AO's client. FC just has to find a replacement for Itemassistant and Clicksaver so that we can have the legitimate gameplay improvements those bring in the game. I also am 100% AGAINST the ban of 3rd party tools that do not interact directly with AO's client and just simulate input devices, since a lot of people use those to control multiple devices for purposes other than multilogging/boxing and should not be at risk for using them.
    Last edited by DigitalBath; Apr 8th, 2014 at 19:55:51.
    Michizure is love, Michizure is life.
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  18. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalBath View Post
    Secondly, do you prefer to have your non-working, almost entirely technically baseless suggestions to be ignored and you being lead into a false sense of security
    Again I won't be drawn into a debate on excuses as to why nothing will work. I am sure there are plenty of technical geniuses that can outwit a 10 year old program with 3rd party tools. However all I am offering are suggestions to make it more work to do so. Again I am sure there are work arounds to any potential road block but I do not accept apathy or a do nothing attitude as acceptable.

    If it is not a problem with FC then so be it, if it is a problem perhaps my suggestion can help stem the tide or possibly spark an idea to someone else on a similar tangent that can be suggested or implemented. At the very least it can be speed bump until some work around is found.

    As an example to what your apathy or negativity seems to suggest, look at it like viruses or malware, just because people will continue to create viruses to get around norton/symantic doesn't mean they should throw their hands up and stop creating or updating anti-virus software.
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  19. #279
    Quote Originally Posted by Psikie View Post
    Again I won't be drawn into a debate on excuses as to why nothing will work. I am sure there are plenty of technical geniuses that can outwit a 10 year old program with 3rd party tools. However all I am offering are suggestions to make it more work to do so. Again I am sure there are work arounds to any potential road block but I do not accept apathy or a do nothing attitude as acceptable.

    If it is not a problem with FC then so be it, if it is a problem perhaps my suggestion can help stem the tide or possibly spark an idea to someone else on a similar tangent that can be suggested or implemented. At the very least it can be speed bump until some work around is found.

    As an example to what your apathy or negativity seems to suggest, look at it like viruses or malware, just because people will continue to create viruses to get around norton/symantic doesn't mean they should throw their hands up and stop creating or updating anti-virus software.

    I never said nothing will work. You're missing the point completely!

    Solutions that can be fixed in under 2minutes for multiboxers and that are annoying to the non-multiboxing player base are not solutions. They are flawed attempts and should not be implemented at all! They are the same as someone watching a rocket being launched to the moon and saying "maybe you should use wood as a fuel! maybe that will work better!" It's not worth trying, though...
    This is an extreme comparison but my point stands.

    Your comparison with anti-virus companies only makes your point worse. They test their solutions and are open to constructive criticism. You take every "that won't work because A B and C" as apathy. If they did things the way you seem to want to, we'd be in a much deeper virus-laden pit than we are today because they'd just blindly implement technically non-viable solutions over and over without getting feedback from their users or applying heuristics.

    It's not apathy, it's constructive criticism. It's knowing your solution is not good and why it shouldn't be attempted. Apathy would be ignoring you, which might have been an easier way to go about this, but a wrong one.

    Think about it. I don't care one way or the other about multiboxing because I don't do it, but I'm here replying to you and trying to help you understand why your solution doesn't work. I also pointed out what to start learning for a solution that has a chance to work to be formulated.

    How is this apathetic?
    Michizure is love, Michizure is life.
    --
    Dywas - 220/30/70 Neutral Nanomage Nano-Technician
    Caramela - 220/30/70 Neutral Solitus Doctor
    Desejos - 220/30/?? Neutral Atrox Enforcer
    Gretchenross - 220/30/?? Neutral Opifex Shade
    Bizzle - 220/30/70 Neutral Atrox Soldier

    --<3 Professional love--
    * Aiken pets Lazy on the head. Sure it is, you keep telling self that
    <Aiken> such a cutesy clammer aren't you *cheekpinch*
    <Lazy>
    <Lazy> viva la revolucion
    * Dywas decides to walk away from the soon-to-be sexytime
    <Aiken> lol Dywas, Id make a man of him
    <Lazy> Dywas, i'd go gay for aiken. no lie

  20. #280
    ap·a·thy[ áppəthee ]1.lack of enthusiasm or energy: lack of interest in anything, or the absence of any wish to do anything

    If you want to be constructive in your divine wisdom, make a suggestion that could or would work. If you don't care for the topic why do you care so much about voicing your opinion? Once again I embrace solutions not excuses, if my idea is not a good one so be it, but again perhaps it can spark someone else into a tangent they might not have thought of.

    I don't see any downside to a 5 sec disconnect countdown timer anytime you change suppresion zones. A pop up box to click or mouse input to acknowledge. If its a 1hour speed bump to some wizard to make a 3rd party tool to over come, that's 1hour of effort not everyone is going to make. Whether it works or not only the actual AO game programers would know for sure.

    The point is IF mb is a problem you don't sit back and do nothing, any type of annoyance if you have enough of them can be a deterant.

    1 mosquito may not make you think twice about taking a late night stroll, but a swarm of 1,000 most certainly would.
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    http://wolf-brigade.webs.com/

    My Story

    Don't feed the Mensa Tralalalala

    Everyday I'm Shuffling.

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