Thread: Monthly Development Update - 2nd April 2014

  1. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by Psikie View Post
    ap·a·thy[ áppəthee ]1.lack of enthusiasm or energy: lack of interest in anything, or the absence of any wish to do anything

    If you want to be constructive in your divine wisdom, make a suggestion that could or would work. If you don't care for the topic why do you care so much about voicing your opinion? Once again I embrace solutions not excuses, if my idea is not a good one so be it, but again perhaps it can spark someone else into a tangent they might not have thought of.

    I don't see any downside to a 5 sec disconnect countdown timer anytime you change suppresion zones. A pop up box to click or mouse input to acknowledge. If its a 1hour speed bump to some wizard to make a 3rd party tool to over come, that's 1hour of effort not everyone is going to make. Whether it works or not only the actual AO game programers would know for sure.

    The point is IF mb is a problem you don't sit back and do nothing, any type of annoyance if you have enough of them can be a deterant.

    1 mosquito may not make you think twice about taking a late night stroll, but a swarm of 1,000 most certainly would.
    IF multiboxing/multilogging is a problem, I leave it to people who know what they're doing to fix it and if I am to make suggestions I will study the matter at hand first.
    People like you create noise and badly thought solutions. So you're part of a problem, not of a solution. They're not "1hr speedbumps", even.

    Not sure I got the 1 mosquito reference. If you mean "people who complain about multiboxing", then it's a minority in most (though not all) games.
    If you're talking about your idea.. 1000 unfounded ideas are still about 1 mosquito. 1 million unfounded ideas might be 10 mosquitos worth, maybe? They waste time instead of providing any actual solution.

    "I don't see any downside to a 5 sec disconnect countdown timer anytime you change suppresion zones" - The multibox software would click it faster than you do and would easily get past it. Is a 10 minute speedbump worth all the accidental disconnects people would get from autorunning into lower gas areas? That's not for me to decide, but if I were to vote on it.. it'd be a No, thanks.

    Apathy, by your own definition, is the opposite of what I'm doing here. I am trying to help and direct you to where you can find out more about your chosen cause while providing answers to your misinformed suggestions that can help you rethink them and improve them.
    I believe a proper solution to prevent multiboxing would be a job. 8hrs a day, 5-6 days a week for a long time to come up with a solution.. which would then need constant maintenance and updating to keep up with developments from "the other side". I'm not willing to do that kind of work for something I don't believe in, but I don't mind advising those who believe it's worth it to try.

    You seem to be unable to recognize this or the lack of validity on your points so, for the future, I'll stop replying to you personally and leave you to your ill-information and false security by truly being apathetic to your "solutions". It's not worth my time or shared experience.
    You ignore all of the constructive parts of my posts that are meant to help you reach a goal YOU are interested in and that makes you undebatable. You're debating yourself by doing this, not my posts!

    You'll understand one day why your process is flawed and gets people who actually know something about this to stop posting and stop trying to help you, regardless of what they think about multiboxing (or any other issue).


    Good luck!
    Last edited by DigitalBath; Apr 8th, 2014 at 21:48:47. Reason: Better wording for a couple things.
    Michizure is love, Michizure is life.
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  2. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalBath View Post
    You seem to be unable to recognize this or the lack of validity on your points so, for the future, I'll stop replying to you personally
    Thank you. I look forward to not hearing your non solutions and excuses as to why nothing will work.

    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalBath View Post
    You ignore all of the constructive parts of my posts that are meant to help you reach a goal YOU are interested in and that makes you undebatable.
    If by constructive you mean try to insult my programming knowledge or lack thereof without putting forth any alternate ideas of your own for criticism or scrutiny certainly I can do without.
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  3. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by Psikie View Post
    Thank you. I look forward to not hearing your non solutions and excuses as to why nothing will work.



    If by constructive you mean try to insult my programming knowledge or lack thereof without putting forth any alternate ideas of your own for criticism or scrutiny certainly I can do without.
    Thank you for confirming/understanding.

    Good luck.
    Michizure is love, Michizure is life.
    --
    Dywas - 220/30/70 Neutral Nanomage Nano-Technician
    Caramela - 220/30/70 Neutral Solitus Doctor
    Desejos - 220/30/?? Neutral Atrox Enforcer
    Gretchenross - 220/30/?? Neutral Opifex Shade
    Bizzle - 220/30/70 Neutral Atrox Soldier

    --<3 Professional love--
    * Aiken pets Lazy on the head. Sure it is, you keep telling self that
    <Aiken> such a cutesy clammer aren't you *cheekpinch*
    <Lazy>
    <Lazy> viva la revolucion
    * Dywas decides to walk away from the soon-to-be sexytime
    <Aiken> lol Dywas, Id make a man of him
    <Lazy> Dywas, i'd go gay for aiken. no lie

  4. #284
    Quote Originally Posted by Macrosun View Post
    Please read this first part carefully.

    ...
    Umm, I haven't read all the replies, someone might have mentioned it, but from my PoV it seems easy.

    If a character on one account changes the target and attacks it at the same time (+/- let's say 100ms) as another account on the same IP (or email or CC), several times, it would indicate that one player is simultaneously sending his/her commands to several clients at once.

  5. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by BytEfLUSh2 View Post
    Umm, I haven't read all the replies, someone might have mentioned it, but from my PoV it seems easy.

    If a character on one account changes the target and attacks it at the same time (+/- let's say 100ms) as another account on the same IP (or email or CC), several times, it would indicate that one player is simultaneously sending his/her commands to several clients at once.
    Or, you know, he's sitting with his pals and they're using /assist.
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  6. #286
    Too much text to read now. Or well, I prioritize reading something else.

    I vote for a char-cap on replies to monthly dev update, so it's possible to follow the discussion without making it a fulltime job. If you can't express your opinion in for example 500 chars, you need to get your own blog.
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  7. #287
    excited for steam release

  8. #288
    Quote Originally Posted by Mastablasta View Post
    Or, you know, he's sitting with his pals and they're using /assist.
    100ms was given as an example, it could be lower than that. I doubt humans would be able to /assist at the same precision as hardware/software multibox systems that send input to multiple clients.

    Anyway, regarding this "multibox" thing, I'm neutral. It hasn't affected me in any way (positive or negative), probably because I don't PvP (yet). Just thinking of methods that could detect "illegal" multiboxers if FunCom ever wanted to do it.

  9. #289
    I put my engineering mind on the topic and wrote down some thoughts for comments. I don't differentiate multilogging and multiboxing in the post, that is details of implementing the same thing.

    On multiboxing in general:
    For every technical measure against multiboxing and/or multilogging there is a technical measure which can be used to overcome it. Looking at IP addresses? I could trivially connect from 3 different IP addresses on 3 computers in the same apartment, just use my own household's mobile phones (all of which have unlimited data plan) as access points. Then there's a number of free VPN providers out there in addition to paid ones. If someone's willing to pay 12 accounts and necessary hardware, they won't end their power trip due to having to get 12 different IP addresses.

    You can make multiboxing a hassle to do but it's not preventable in my opinion. The philosophy to overcome it should be the game itself requiring intelligent input from the user to actually play the game in a useful manner. But this is AO, and just the simple act of having 6 clients press O at the same time accomplishes a rather powerful thing.

    Or we could just have random CAPTCHAs pop up at any time in a tower war scenario. I am sure everyone would love that.

    Policy versus technical solution against multiboxing:
    The devs are asking here for a cost-effective technical solution that could be used to catch multiboxing people doing PvP. I do not believe there is one that is both feasible and not cumbersome for all the others.

    However, there also is no 100% enforceable solution to catch people using exploits, but the policy is they are strictly disallowed. Stating as a policy that actively controlling multiple characters at the same time in 25% or less gas areas is disallowed is a start, and lets FC have leeway in determining how to police the situation plus what constitutes sufficient proof for them to take action.

    Claiming there needs to be a technical solution that fixes the problem is narrow-minded thinking and does not even serve to identify whether FC condones this practice of multiboxed PvP or not.

    It is up to the game designers, customer service, and the rest of guys to constitute and enforce what kinds of situations go beyond reasonable doubt. The EULA gives Funcom power to do many things which do not require judge, jury and executioner in the legal sense.

    The specific problem of solo tower griefing by multibox:
    I think the key issue here is it is possible for a single person to conduct, without penalty, an activity which causes significant hassle for a large group of people who also have no way to respond but being on constant lookout. A design where attacks cannot be placed at will and griefing has a cost can be put in place, this is where game designers have to step in.

    Even as a basic idea, attach a hefty, meaningful cost to emergency defense shield neutralizers (like, at least 10s of millions at TL7), make it required to be used 20 minutes before towers are attacked. Now the defender can know somewhat in advance that either a proper attack is coming or someone just wasted their money. Adjust mechanics as necessary, including tower health (not getting a head start is going to change things a lot) and hot time mechanics.

    At the same time, you just created a money sink for the inflated economy. The price should be high, because NW is not designed for individuals anyway. The ultimate aim is to create commitment for the attacker to do just that - attack - so that there is also an incentive to turn up to defend, as the attack is plausible.

    However, because the above gives less of an incentive to attack in general (attached cost), there need to be other changes made in order to make successful attacks on tower sites worthwhile, too.

    Other kinds of changes are possible, too. Someone brought up AoC mechanics in the other thread, they make some sense. Personally, I believe that a shift in tower wars towards more time-limited, pre-announced attacks would go a long way to bring more interesting NW in general.

    To summarize: (tl;dr)
    For the general problem of multiboxing, I do not believe there is an effective technical solution. For the specific problem of a single person wiping out tower sites by multiboxing, yes, solutions exist. For unfair PvP caused by multiboxing, technical solution is not the answer, but policy needs to come first.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siahanor View Post
    Complaining about the realism of height changing mechanics in a game that has people who can channel their anger to make huge killer meatballs.

  10. #290
    Quote Originally Posted by eroz_c View Post
    /SNIP

    Even as a basic idea, attach a hefty, meaningful cost to emergency defense shield neutralizers (like, at least 10s of millions at TL7), make it required to be used 20 minutes before towers are attacked. Now the defender can know somewhat in advance that either a proper attack is coming or someone just wasted their money. Adjust mechanics as necessary, including tower health (not getting a head start is going to change things a lot) and hot time mechanics.

    At the same time, you just created a money sink for the inflated economy. The price should be high, because NW is not designed for individuals anyway. The ultimate aim is to create commitment for the attacker to do just that - attack - so that there is also an incentive to turn up to defend, as the attack is plausible.

    However, because the above gives less of an incentive to attack in general (attached cost), there need to be other changes made in order to make successful attacks on tower sites worthwhile, too.
    /SNIP

    I have to throw out a vote for this idea, of all the ones I've seen that certainly seems one of the better ones.
    Last edited by Anarrina; Apr 10th, 2014 at 16:15:49. Reason: fixed broken quote tag
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  11. #291
    Quote Originally Posted by eroz_c View Post
    To summarize: (tl;dr)
    For the general problem of multiboxing, I do not believe there is an effective technical solution. For the specific problem of a single person wiping out tower sites by multiboxing, yes, solutions exist. For unfair PvP caused by multiboxing, technical solution is not the answer, but policy needs to come first.
    I agree 100%. Finding out FC's policy on this is the first step.
    I also believe higher population (hopefully brought in by the new engine and revamped New Player Experience..), will bring multiboxing in PvP to what it is in most other games - A cool gimmick that isn't really an issue.
    After the policy is decided upon, many paths (non-technical being more viable) will open to either support or passively prevent multiboxing.
    Michizure is love, Michizure is life.
    --
    Dywas - 220/30/70 Neutral Nanomage Nano-Technician
    Caramela - 220/30/70 Neutral Solitus Doctor
    Desejos - 220/30/?? Neutral Atrox Enforcer
    Gretchenross - 220/30/?? Neutral Opifex Shade
    Bizzle - 220/30/70 Neutral Atrox Soldier

    --<3 Professional love--
    * Aiken pets Lazy on the head. Sure it is, you keep telling self that
    <Aiken> such a cutesy clammer aren't you *cheekpinch*
    <Lazy>
    <Lazy> viva la revolucion
    * Dywas decides to walk away from the soon-to-be sexytime
    <Aiken> lol Dywas, Id make a man of him
    <Lazy> Dywas, i'd go gay for aiken. no lie

  12. #292
    I don't know the difference between multi boxing and multi logging, however, I and everyone in my org does multi logging for buffing. moving items, moving credits, etc. I don't engage in PVP at and none of my friends do either.

    That being said if you people are advocating eliminating multi logging to appease the pvp population I am against it. It seems that eliminating multi boxing and eliminating multi logging will go hand in hand from what I am reading. And also from what I am reading any technical solution to the multi boxing issue will also lead to multi logging being eliminated too. I'm not a techie but it seems to me that there is no quick tech fix if any and the time would be best spent elsewhere at this time. I do not believe that multi boxing is the massive problem being talked about here.

    One of the things I like about AO is being able to multi log my mules so I can get items without using the stupid mail system and multi logging my buffing toons to get a quick buff without running around trying to find someone else to buff me.

    Just my 2 cents worth.

  13. #293

    Red face

    Quote Originally Posted by gunforhire View Post
    i don't know the difference between multi boxing and multi logging, however, i and everyone in my org does multi logging for buffing. Moving items, moving credits, etc. I don't engage in pvp at and none of my friends do either.

    That being said if you people are advocating eliminating multi logging to appease the pvp population i am against it. It seems that eliminating multi boxing and eliminating multi logging will go hand in hand from what i am reading. And also from what i am reading any technical solution to the multi boxing issue will also lead to multi logging being eliminated too. I'm not a techie but it seems to me that there is no quick tech fix if any and the time would be best spent elsewhere at this time. I do not believe that multi boxing is the massive problem being talked about here.

    One of the things i like about ao is being able to multi log my mules so i can get items without using the stupid mail system and multi logging my buffing toons to get a quick buff without running around trying to find someone else to buff me.

    Just my 2 cents worth.
    i add my 2 cents to this too. I love the ablitity of mutilog mule for transfering and buffing my toons too. BESIDE THE TWINKING OF AO...MUTILOG BUFFING IS WHAT I LOVE ABOUT AO. And would be againt removing this ability also.
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  14. #294
    Why do people repeatedly refuse to read posts that are a few higher then their own that explain the difference between multibox and multilog? Instead they write paragraphs of misinformed tripe and whine for no reason. GG

  15. #295
    I would like to add to my previous post that Macrosun did indeed discuss many similar points, but I disagree with the fact that bringing policy into the playfield would mean huge customer service overhead. To continue with my (slippery slope to mention this so many times) comparison with exploits, there is no way of saying for sure if the guy that killed you exploited his equipment on, provided there exists some way he could have equipped it legally. Similarly it cannot be said for sure whether the mini-blob of 10 NTs you meet who cast a perfectly coordinated nuke on you are controlled by one or several players.

    As far as customer service goes, you do not have to be able to deterministically figure out every time whether a complaint is valid. Just say "PvP multibox investigation requires a lot of complelling evidence to be provided". Then you get at least the ones who make the mistake of being blatantly obvious. The rest will have to adjust, it will be harder, and risk of getting caught affects how people act as well so they perceive more of a risk, too.

    Corner cases - I think this is not a great argument. Obviously the right answer for someone dual logged accidentally flagged being accused of such activity should not be found as breach of rules. You look at the reason for having such a policy in the first place, and whether the action taken is going to contribute towards that goal. Also, you can have a fuzzy policy, like "blatant multiboxing in PvP is not allowed", then FC draws the lines, players adjust to them later, you do not immediately have to wave the big boot but start with warnings if you so desire. Claiming you need to have a 100% technical solution that had the potential to auto-ban people... I wonder if the game has ever had that, and whether full automation is even desirable here.

    To get back to my original point, if the global problem is unsolvable, you have to fix the local problems in a satisfactory way.
    Eroz, finally 220/26/70 Adventurer & proud General of Regulators on ex-RK2 (outdated) equip
    Rokroland, 170 Engineer No more crab for j00 Northern Front on ex-RK2
    Ranged roxxorz!
    Sig last updated properly when West Athens still had people sitting about the subway.
    Quote Originally Posted by Siahanor View Post
    Complaining about the realism of height changing mechanics in a game that has people who can channel their anger to make huge killer meatballs.

  16. #296
    Quote Originally Posted by Aiken View Post
    /SNIP

    I have to throw out a vote for this idea, of all the ones I've seen that certainly seems one of the better ones.
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  17. #297
    Quote Originally Posted by Notevenmad View Post
    Why do people repeatedly refuse to read posts that are a few higher then their own that explain the difference between multibox and multilog? Instead they write paragraphs of misinformed tripe and whine for no reason. GG
    Why so nasty. I just asked a question and in reviewing the post I see no where that there is an explanation of what the difference is. No need to talk down to people. Your epeen is not impressive.

  18. #298
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunforhire View Post
    Why so nasty. I just asked a question and in reviewing the post I see no where that there is an explanation of what the difference is. No need to talk down to people. Your epeen is not impressive.
    multi-log is what every AO'er does when he's twinking:

    logs a froob agent, a NT on his other account and periodically logs another toon to feed himself a TT.

    Multi-log is very common, and I don't think anyone in the history of AO is annoyed about multi-logging. The only known exception to this are the people who fume at AFK people in vicinity, making vibrant claims about them ruining the gaming experience because they might as well be an NPC or something.

    Multi-box, on the otherhand automates each logged account, and while it might make for some pretty choreographed dancing, that's fairly mild compared to the darker side, that being near instantaneous execution of capping specials, nukes or both. Pairing instantaneous execution of specials with multiple multiple pets, and overlapping auras.

    Liberal use of /assist and multiple attacks commands all hotkeyed to 1 button, and you start to get an idea of why/how the problem went from 'barely acceptable' (people multiboxing 2-3 accounts) to 'completely out of control' (people multiboxing 6 accounts with utilization of multiple capping specials or mechanics which aim to eliminate opponents instantaneously)

  19. #299

    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich View Post
    multi-log is what every AO'er does when he's twinking:

    logs a froob agent, a NT on his other account and periodically logs another toon to feed himself a TT.

    Multi-log is very common, and I don't think anyone in the history of AO is annoyed about multi-logging. The only known exception to this are the people who fume at AFK people in vicinity, making vibrant claims about them ruining the gaming experience because they might as well be an NPC or something.

    Multi-box, on the otherhand automates each logged account, and while it might make for some pretty choreographed dancing, that's fairly mild compared to the darker side, that being near instantaneous execution of capping specials, nukes or both. Pairing instantaneous execution of specials with multiple multiple pets, and overlapping auras.

    Liberal use of /assist and multiple attacks commands all hotkeyed to 1 button, and you start to get an idea of why/how the problem went from 'barely acceptable' (people multiboxing 2-3 accounts) to 'completely out of control' (people multiboxing 6 accounts with utilization of multiple capping specials or mechanics which aim to eliminate opponents instantaneously)
    Thank you for the explanation. I think I see now why it has never been an issue with me. Neither my friends or I are PVP'ers and our org doesn't have a tower site because with peeps in our org all over the world we don't usually have enough on when the site goes hot. If the attackers are multi boxing then we would be helpless anyway I guess.

  20. #300
    Funcom is doing a great job when making people forget about the "new" engine... What a joke of a company.

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