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Thread: Monthly Development Update - 2nd April 2014

  1. #641
    Quote Originally Posted by Sephiroth56 View Post
    I've addressed every single point you've made at me, and even cleared up some misconceptions you have about what a stock is, and who owns the game. Conveniently, you left out answering any of them, but it's fun to see that you saw the replies, but had nothing to say in your defense.
    I needed to defend myself? Against what?

    Your walls of text that amount to nothing more than hear-say?
    Your inability to understand the difference between a mistake and incompetence?
    Your lack of understanding how the economy works?
    Or how a profitable, publicly traded company should be operated?

    I didn't need to say anything further, you proved my point quite nicely.
    I have nothing to hide, but I value my privacy!
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  2. #642
    Quote Originally Posted by Montelukast View Post
    I don't understand what the uproar is on multiboxing?
    Cus 4 some pvp is like the olympic games. It has 2 be fair.
    Disclaimer: My posts should not be read by anyone.

  3. #643
    Quote Originally Posted by leetlover View Post
    Cus 4 some pvp is like the olympic games. It has 2 be fair.
    Get more friends.
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  4. #644
    In many countries gaming is equal to olympics. Got enough friends and still think mb is bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich View Post
    Whoever decided to tack SL onto AO was just retarded, it's got to be the single worst thing about the game as a whole.
    Agree.

    The perksystem was rly good but to me SL wrecked the game. AO was Cyberpunk.
    Disclaimer: My posts should not be read by anyone.

  5. #645
    Quote Originally Posted by Grandpa View Post
    I needed to defend myself? Against what?

    Your walls of text that amount to nothing more than hear-say?
    Your inability to understand the difference between a mistake and incompetence?
    Your lack of understanding how the economy works?
    Or how a profitable, publicly traded company should be operated?

    I didn't need to say anything further, you proved my point quite nicely.
    Yeah. Funcom isn't profitable. Also, no, you don't need to say anything further. It's all very clear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pennypacker View Post
    No, i meant end of discussion. And yes, funcom is deliberately screwing over their EU and UK customers. This issue has been taken up numerous times, on both game suggestions, monthly updates and other subforums, and has not been answered or replied to once in the years it has been brought up. And i've also cancelled my account with this as reasoning once upon a time.

    And, I do get what you are saying, if this was a new issue i would agree, but this has been going on for years, and while the marketing department has updated TSW and AoC sub fee's they skipped AO.
    See, I get that. But there's one thing that's important to understand. No one on these forums have anything to do with billing. The devs jobs aren't related to do that. Before you say they should address it and/or bring it up the system, then see that doing that would spread the team that's thinly spread even thinner. I'd argue that the devs should be able to focus on developing the game. There are many ways to contact Funcom and not the AO dev team. I'm sure that if someone forms a good letter addressing this issue, and you start a thread where people can post with "agree" if they think it's a problem, so the letter can link to that and show how many this bothers, then you'd get a response from someone further up the system. Even the CEO of Funcom's pretty accessible. That way, we won't fill the forums up with complaints the people reading the forums can't change, and you might actually end up getting a change, or at least a response. Perhaps there's something more to this.

    But anyway, I know it'll be quite easy getting a response if you take this through the proper channels.
    Last edited by Sephiroth56; May 1st, 2014 at 11:17:04.
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  6. #646
    There's a new monthly thread out, you know. Time to leave this one alone.
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    cause salt makes m'steaks taste great!

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  7. #647
    Macrosun, thank you very VERY much.

    You've pretty much confirmed every su****ion I had of the AO Dev team. You say you know there's a "quitting strike" (dramatic term, and perhaps a bit exaggerated, but at least it gives what's trying to be achieved a term), but then you say it has no effect and the dev team isn't even aware (why hello there, oxymoron).

    If you guys don't care that people, a LOT of people, are leaving because of how poorly things are being done... Well, that just says everything in itself.

    ggwp
    Funcom for best troll 21st century.
    Heh.

  8. #648
    I always thought price difference was due to FC account location. For example I used to pay 9.99 US, and then after some move or account change to Funcom GBH or something or other now I pay 14.99 or 19.99 US. I also know that when I use Bank of America it charges an additional $3.25 for international payments vs Chase that does not.

    Not sure if that helps for the Euro players to know that.
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  9. #649
    Quote Originally Posted by Ahndracorvid View Post
    Re: people leaving shortly after arriving - this is such a complicated issue that could have been avoided if the right decisions had been made but now we're kinda stuck in this hole where people come, see an empty game, and quickly leave again. There are so many things to say about this that have already been said, it's been frustrating to watch things slowly slip despite all the attempts to stop it. As players we can only do so much. I could write a thesis but I won't, I'll just touch on what's been brought up by the two of you who replied to me.


    My point is there needs to be a focus on sending these sorts of messages: "Look at this game! Look at how different it is! Are you one of those people looking for an oldschool experience with depth but didn't know where to find it? Are you a SWG refugee? Do you like games with steep learning curves that challenge you and keep you interested for not months but YEARS?"


    These are the sorts of people who are looking for a game like AO but simply doesn't know it exists because the main method of advertising that we ourselves see is word of mouth.

    It's a vicious circle, isn't it? And it's frustrating as hell to watch it happen.
    WARNING, Wall of text crits you for 9879922123 and you are no more.

    In answer to your questions above, Yes, I am an SWG vet and I do like games that keep me involved for years with learning curves. (I played SWG for over 9 years in fact). The problem here is AO is NOT a viable alternative to SWG gameplay. For a while I thought it might be but upper gameplay/PVP showed me how far that was from the truth.

    1st, we had about 25 come over here. Some of us even subbed initially for 1 year (like I did due to that 9 year stent in SWG) after playing as a froob for 2 weeks. Now, I believe there is maybe 1 left and the rest of us have moved on. ALL of us played SWG for very long term and about 90% of us were pre-CU vets even.\

    Was it the graphics engine that caused us to leave? No. We all liked the idea of a graphics update but the graphics included now are circa SWG and we were all pretty much fine with that.

    Was it outdated animations that caused us to leave. No. However, the animations included in SWG were certainly better than AO, IMHO.

    Was it the low dev team and low content that caused us to leave? No. SWG had 2 devs the last 2 years it was up and it was growing in subs at the time of it's closure. (and for all who ask how that was - growing and closed, SWG died due to LA/EA and TOR as SOE's contract with LA ran out and LA raised the IP price, at EA's insistence, for continued uptime for SOE's SWG.

    Was it most of the deals here in this thread that AO vets latch onto as reasoning for new players to forget about this game? No.

    Was it the fact that I had to pay for a sub? No. I actually like a subbed game over a F2P/P2W game any day. If I wanted P2W, I'd still be over in STO where I have a lifertime. Besides that, I DONATE more per month to the EMU than I ever paid as a sub here.

    Was it the Funcom's design of AO, itself. Yes.

    Since my 1 year ends in just a few days, I logged on the other night, when the EMU server was down, just to give it 1 more chance. I then looked thru this small hole in the 10 tool bars I had set up and remembered just exactly why I quit. I've got 2 tool bars in the EMU (and when I played SWG live as well), not 10. Here, I had to have my G-510 board running macros for powers/etc just to compete against the "group mentality" balance/gameplay. This appears to me to be 12 years of post-launch additions and Funcom taking the easy way out by adding another button instead of trying to keep AI functions down. If I really wanted toolbars all over my screen, I'd play TOR. After all, it's got the IP I played for over 9 years at least included therein.

    As a 9 year vet of SWG, I'm all for group play. Spin groups are some of the fun of SWG pre-CU but this AO design is severly limiting. I leveled up in RK and then went to SL. I found the hecks I ground for SK lasted for about 10 minutes and then not reduced XP, NO XP. That is NOT freedom of sandbox gameplay, that's devs leading you by the nose to content they think you ought to be playing. I tried WoW, lasted until about level 30, if I wanted to be lead around from content to content, I'd be there. Group everything in SL almost. Again no freedom in the sandbox. IF guildys weren't on, log out. Not that way in SWG pre-CU, CU, or NGE. You ALWAYS had a choice of group or solo gameplay. There was/is always something to do if guildys were on or not.

    Gear grinds for end game? WoW, need I say more.

    Community aspects are treated here about the same way as WoW. Player citys? Just an instance to grind and NEVER go there without hitting the alien button. No feeling of ownership in AO at all as there was in SWG. Apts with only 30 some items placed. My store-bought apt looked exactly the same as my wifes. The deal that "got me to sub" was finding a player city plot in the open world (I even had to call another SWG vet and tell him about it) as a froob, only to find they had been taken out after I paid for the year.

    Non-combat crafter profs are completely not viable. The small amount of crafting XP you get for actually crafting is worthless. EVERYTHING is combat in AO. Crafters have to get drops to actually craft EVERYTHING. Again, seen all that in WoW. My SWG crafters are a welcome change when I just don't want to go kill something that evening. Again, sandbox freedom of gameplay and not developer design of what they think you ought to be doing. That's what makes a game last 9 years for me.

    PVP is 1 big CC-fest. Never understood a developers like of taking away gameplay from some1 else and thinking that's fun for both parties. In SWG pre-CU, you lost a turn, even in NGE you could hit back and EVERY prof had a snare break except commando and they got 4000 more armor when snared. Here? It's stand there until you die. Great fun there, /sarcasm. More WoW copying post launch. Just not my cup of tea, I suppose. Altho, it is well known that SOE tried the WoW copy crap and is also well known that they lost 70% of their playerbase EACH and EVERY time they tried that junk.

    There is a lot more. But as people here have already said, Funcom doesn't have the resources or the want to do much about anything. As some1 who watched my game close, I sympathize with all of you to a great extent. But, I'm sorry, SWG vets are not the saving grace for AO. Best advise I can give to Funcom if they want to get my money, or just about ANY SWG vets is, hire Raph Koster and give him free reign. I believe he is available and knows the difference between a sandbox and a used to be sandbox/themepark WoW copying development stent.
    Last edited by Esquire; May 28th, 2014 at 18:43:51.
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  10. #650
    I have not read every single post in this thread, because I don't feel like bashing my head against the wall. However, I have read enough to make a personal comment about all the CRAP statements being made.

    About the Devs: The negative aspects of the game, is not entirely their fault. They can only work within the budget given to the team by the company they work for. Unfortunately sometimes a Dev (or Director) made a prediction regarding the delivery of a feature and he/she was off by... a LOT. Also, they are still working with spaghetti code from the late 1990's (AO was in beta since 2000 and release in 2001 but it was in development for years before that). The original Dev team practically wrote code on napkins and pieces of toilet paper (semi-sarcasm) leaving very little actual data to figure out how to properly get things done to the Dev Teams that came after them.

    About FC: I already made my statement about the Devs. The company as a whole has a terrible reputation, which they have earned and it's clearly reflected in their stock price. I totally blame those who have administrative control (money) of the company. When AO was their successful money making flagship... they took the very juicy profits and instead of investing it back into AO to strengthen the title, they used it to make AoC, and when they had profits coming from AO and AoC... they used most of those profits to make TSW. Problem is that every time they had a VERY PROFITABLE MMO... they would not invest back into it to strengthen it (fix serious issues, improve performance, deliver features on time, etc). Instead they push for new expansions to get even more money out of customers, which of course then added MORE problems every time that happened (unfinished/buggy expansion released, game balance, unnecessary complexity, etc). Also the different subscription prices between American and European customers is also very shady because the different is not small like 5% but at least 33% which is a substantial difference in any service. Their marketing department (if they still have one) should have been fired back in 2005, because since then they've had no original ideas to either improve the image of AO (neither to the gaming community worldwide or the AO community). The very rare t-shirt, poster or free month (or if you are extremely lucky lifetime upgrade to your account) is ALL they seem to come up with for special events.

    About Forum Mods: They are mostly ARK's... who are fellow AO players that volunteer for FREE. They follow rules which they NEED to enforce to keep the forum within a level of civility. I've had my share of warnings which I totally deserved. Troll postings in any form need to be dealt with, and they ARE the ones who deal with it, accept it and move on.

    About AO Community here in the forums:
    Damn, and I thought I was bitter when I left AO... lots of anger, lots of frustration, lots of players who are passionate about the game to the point they want to choke a dev or a mod or even another gamer because they feel cheated. I can't blame them, but trust me... trolling, won't work regardless as to whom it's aimed at. Only constructive criticism WITH reasonable solutions or suggestions MAYBE could make a difference, but always assume that it will fall in deaf ears... just know that you did your part to contribute something positive and your gaming conscience will be at peace.

    That is all.
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  11. #651
    Quote Originally Posted by Windguaerd View Post
    I

    About the Devs: The negative aspects of the game, is not entirely their fault. They can only work within the budget given to the team by the company they work for. Unfortunately sometimes a Dev (or Director) made a prediction regarding the delivery of a feature and he/she was off by... a LOT. Also, they are still working with spaghetti code from the late 1990's (AO was in beta since 2000 and release in 2001 but it was in development for years before that). The original Dev team practically wrote code on napkins and pieces of toilet paper (semi-sarcasm) leaving very little actual data to figure out how to properly get things done to the Dev Teams that came after them.
    .
    Hi Windguaerd great that you post: I don't 100% agree that Dev are not to blame. Turning spaghetti code in to smart constructors and scalable classes is a Devs work, else you cant really call your self a developer. There are many tools to take equal classes and variables in to good structured classes that can be inherited. Good OO classes can do wonders for you. I think its more a knowledge and technical expertise issue. The way the new GMS API was implemented shows this. There are techniques like : Object pool, Abstract factory, Singleton, Wrapper translators, Decorator etc.. If you don't know any of this terms, its better to get back to school.

  12. #652
    Quote Originally Posted by Ironmax View Post
    Hi Windguaerd great that you post: I don't 100% agree that Dev are not to blame. Turning spaghetti code in to smart constructors and scalable classes is a Devs work, else you cant really call your self a developer. There are many tools to take equal classes and variables in to good structured classes that can be inherited. Good OO classes can do wonders for you. I think its more a knowledge and technical expertise issue. The way the new GMS API was implemented shows this. There are techniques like : Object pool, Abstract factory, Singleton, Wrapper translators, Decorator etc.. If you don't know any of this terms, its better to get back to school.
    Half of that is beyond my comprehension tbh. However I think I get the point. the problem is/was that the original team (and I believe for the next few years after that) there was no easy-to-use tools that a new Dev could use without knowing the code extremely well. Old code, tools which can practically requires extensive knowledge of the code itself to even use, on top of that a lot of "fixes" were not true fixes but workarounds and "ok let's just disable it and maybe we'll fix it later" (Parry for example) among other things.

    I don't know if the techniques you mention could even apply to a game code which is as old as AO. I believe they currently have updated tools which are much easier to learn and handle for Devs, but such tools were not available for a very very long time (my guess only in the past 3 yrs).

    And... the old saying "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" does apply.
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  13. #653
    Quote Originally Posted by Windguaerd View Post
    Half of that is beyond my comprehension tbh. However I think I get the point. the problem is/was that the original team (and I believe for the next few years after that) there was no easy-to-use tools that a new Dev could use without knowing the code extremely well. Old code, tools which can practically requires extensive knowledge of the code itself to even use, on top of that a lot of "fixes" were not true fixes but workarounds and "ok let's just disable it and maybe we'll fix it later" (Parry for example) among other things.

    I don't know if the techniques you mention could even apply to a game code which is as old as AO. I believe they currently have updated tools which are much easier to learn and handle for Devs, but such tools were not available for a very very long time (my guess only in the past 3 yrs).

    And... the old saying "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" does apply.
    Yes i think i know what you mean. The "Logic" of there code can be hard to interpret. But codes
    from 2000 are not really that different from today, when we talk about general coding language
    (c / c++) . I am sure its not that hard to read the codes. Does techniques do apply to any c/c++ or OO
    language. It is just architectural pattern, relationships and interactions between classes / objects etc.

    It is important to separate 2 facts. Old rending codes and old classes and logics, they trow all the old rending
    codes out the window, what you end up with, is not really that different from todays game. I know i am assuming allot without seeing the codes. They have to follow the "Dream Engine" way of logic to work with
    with AO logic. (When it comes to rending). Example buff alpha texture effect.(Some texture has a UV cords modification)

    I pretty much agree with every thing else you said But i think they should push the engine, that make less angry payers
    Last edited by Ironmax; May 31st, 2014 at 10:22:36.

  14. #654
    I think, in the end, that the entire dev team would've been better off rewriting the entire AO code and do bugfixing/balance/engine after that

  15. #655
    Quote Originally Posted by Grandpa View Post
    Currently I live in the US, but I have played (and paid) from Europe as well.
    I never agreed with the discrepancy, it's just arbitrary and another example of poor customer relations.

    Then again, I also don't agree that $14.95 per month is a fair price for:
    - a 13 year old game,
    - with about 500 players left,
    - and its last booster being 5 years old.

    To me, it appears that FunCom believes it is Electronic Arts.

    Year after year, EA is voted top or near-top as "most hated company" by Forbes.
    But EA also has a ~20% market share and ~$4B in annual revenue.
    Treating customers poorly is a business strategy that works for EA.
    Every fed-up customer can be replaced by another child growing into the video-gaming age.
    For EA, marketing is cheaper than good customer relations.

    But FunCom isn't even in the top 10 of its sector, with about $20M in annual revenue and a market share of less than 2%.

    Among other poor decisions, FunCom keeps making patches for AO that upset more people than they please.
    When players voice their discontent, FC says that "they don't care if we quit".

    Well, all delusions of grandeur aside, FunCom is not EA, not even close.
    What works for EA will spell certain death for FunCom (and not just AO).
    And if you don't see anything wrong with EA being voted worst company in the US by a bunch of butthurt gamers over things that actually make sense, then you're pretty delussional as well.
    EA makes a ton of great games and hosts good services, give away games, have money-back guarantees, and employ thousands of workers who make a fine living. They are not a company that causes major polution, deforestation, destabilises the world economy, treat their workers or customers terribly or in any way actually deserve the title of "worst company".
    That 4chan and whatever group of nonsense crybabies can muster up enough spambots to vote EA in to the #1 position tells you nothing except that gamers are a whiny bunch of spoiled brats and that the position is worth nill as an actual datapoint.

    And the best way to see that a game is probably being run properly is that a bunch of people will cry about the changes being made. Chances are that changes that are unpopular are changes that overall improve the game. Why? Because players don't care about overall balance. They want what they consider personally to be the most value from the product, and that doesn't in any way corelate with what's most valuable for the game over all.

    As an example, imagine that you log in to a game of Planetside 2 and you have a gun that always does headshots. You can't do anything wrong, no matter what you do, your gun does a headshot. You rack up kills and xp like crazy. So does everyone else, though, except a few people who think that this uber gun is stupid and imbalanced. Many people who use it think it's stupid too, but they have to in order to stay competitive.
    Now, the gun is nerfed, it no longer does headshots all the time, it gets a boost to headshot dmg instead, and you go on the forum to whine about it because you can no longer rely on this crutch to take you through the ranks. The game is ruined. You don't want to play again. Yet, anyone who comes in after the fact will find a more well rounded, balanced game where people have fun.
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