Ado/pen/inf missions and Team-able level range

[Vaurt]

Hey everyone,

I would like to see 2 things happen for the sake of the game, and I'm fully aware going in that these may not be popular suggestions however they are ones that I have come to realise should have been made a long time ago without the need for it to be suggested. To be implemented at this late stage suggestion 2 will not be practical without suggestion 1, however suggestion 1 could be implemented without suggestion 2. Enough waffle so lets get on with this.


Suggestion 1: SL missions (ado/pen/inf) give daily style rewards that are dependant on each players level rather than the current reward dependant on the level of the puller.

Examples, could be tweaked if necessary:
Easy missions would reward 1 XP reward equivalent to a daily reward.
Medium missions would reward 1 XP reward equivalent to a daily reward and 1 XP reward half that of a daily reward.
Hard missions would reward 2 XP rewards both equivalent to a daily reward.

Level requirements to pull the mission from each garden would say as they are.

Positives of this scheme would be that;
All team members will receive a reward based on their own level thus making specific level pullers no longer necessary.
Makes the reward from a pen mission or ado mission equivalent to that of an inferno mission, making ado and pen more relevant.
Medium and hard missions would become better sources of XP especially for research as 2 rewards would give a greater boost on level 9 and 10 researches. (For those of you who don't know me I don't like easy missions as I see them as so easy you don't actually learn to play your character in them)

Negatives of this scheme might be that;
Lowest level pullers may become preferable due to the easier low level mobs. A way to address this may be to drop the rewards a little (eg Easy: 0.5 Daily, Med: 1 Daily, Hard: 1.5 Daily) and introducing another MUCH smaller 'level of puller' based reward.


Suggestion 2: Reassign team-able level ranges for 200+ characters based on the effective level.

Its fairly easy to see that 1 shadow level = 5 'Normal' levels (if you are in doubt please see the max skill you can raise per level post and pre level 200), so why isn't this reflected in the team-able level ranges?

The new formulation would look something like:

Effective level = rk level + 5*shadowlevel

Team-able effective level = 0.75*effective level to 1.33*effective level.

Then the reverse calculation is slightly more difficult:
if min/max effective level is less than 200: actual level = effective level
if min/max effective level is greater than 200: actual level = 200 + (effective level - 200)/5.

So the result of this would be as examples:
Player level: Team-able range
Level 150: 113 - 200
Level 160: 120 - 203
Level 175: 131 - 207
Level 190: 143 - 211
Level 200: 150 - 213
Level 205: 169 - 220
Level 210: 188 - 220
Level 215: 201 - 220
Level 220: 205 - 220

I'm not going to provide pro's and con's to this suggestion as I hope everyone understands that it is in aid of reducing our reliance on level 220 characters to level much lower characters. Also I'm sure everyone will be quite thrilled to tell me about all of the negatives in the upcoming torrent of replies.

So all there is left to say is; If you got this far, thank you for reading, and when replying please provide constructive comments to WHY you do or do not like this suggestion. I am likely to ignore anyone who leaves a lone opinion without any explanation behind it.

Best wishes, Vaurt

tl;dr Go back to the top and get reading you lazy so and so.

[Caloss2]

I support both suggestions, and I think they will happen as the game moves forward, it wasn't meant to be played sat in a med suit in Ely or on follow in med suit until 220; and yes I know when you get to your 5th 220 it all gets a little repetitive, but before criticizing and the usual crew post personal attacks, V has x 10 220/30/xx toons and 11 more in between.

So I don't think it's an uneducated suggestion at what the game needs.

[Traderjill]

I'm both for and against this idea.

Preface: I generally level my toons the 'normal' way pre-inferno. I think there were 2 toons that I OST'd to level of the some 13 220's and however other random toons.. and they were both toons that weren't going past 200 (and were the 2nd or 3rd copy of that profession for me). An idea that might make it so that I can form a reasonable team pre-inferno would be great.. and I believe this is a good first stab at accomplishing that goal.

The problem is that in order for an idea like this to work, there's other stuff that needs to be fixed first.

1. Pre-inferno leveling is broken and I think that until you fix what's wrong with the leveling experience, any attempt to 'force' people to team together is just going to aggravate players. Examples of broken include: scheol mob pathing is still bad (are there scheol team mission even?), I believe there are adonis garden missions but if my memory serves me correctly they're in difficult to get to (moreso annoying) spots. I haven't done a Pen mission in years but last time I did it seemed like the mobs in Pen were hitting harder than the ones in inferno (maybe this was fixed.. not sure). And then, ofc, there's the concept that even if they fixed the things I named.. you're spending an unrealistic number of levels literally grinding the exact same content. I've posted suggestions on expanding Dark Ruins style content to other zones giving people repeatable solo and team instances that give good xp gains.

2. Research is annoying to do and if you're able to multi-task by running a couple toons through inferno missions (one grinding research, the other getting xp/research) then that makes the process a bit more manageable. I'm sure someone's going to say "just do your research before 220". In theory this is correct, in practice I've found it very difficult to complete all of my level 10 research even if I'm full research for a good portion of my leveling time.. primary due to dailies and research caps. It is very unlikely I'll ever level another toon to 220 (unless they come out with another profession) but I still think the whole 'kill 2 birds with 1 stone' is something to keep in mind.

[Unluckful]

Signed.

I think that a change like this would have a noticeable impact in AO's retention rate for new players. In my experience, most people who try out AO either logout and never login again within a week of first downloading the game or continue playing but end up getting burned out and slowly disappear from the game in the TL5 range.

In a game where a significant part of the games population has one or more endgame characters, it is essential to make the endgame accessible to newer players in a reasonable amount of time. For someone playing AO for the first time, especially in 2014 where MMOs are becoming geared towards more casual gamers, even the concept of 220 levels seems daunting.

Essentially the key to AO continuing to be successful or even exist is new player retention. A series of changes as suggested by Vaurt would make the process of leveling more open to new players and, in my opinion, by extension increase player retention rates.

Its just too hard sometimes leveling in a system designed at a time where the player population was well over at least twice as large as it is now. The games community is at the endgame, and that is a hard fact to argue against.

TLDR; the barriers to entry for a new player are just too high for most people to become long term players.

[Vaurt]

In response to Traderjill's comments:

Thanks for your comments, I too will have to agree and disagree with the points you have brought up.

I agree with what you said about the pre-Inferno leveling and I would like to extend this to currently all leveling is 'broken' from a mostly objective perspective however especially when viewed from a the point of a newer player. I also agree with all of the ways you mentioned as examples about how pre-inferno level is broken. Where I would have to disagree is that, of the many things that need to be fixed I don't consider order to be that important when it comes to time and resource use to fix the problems. If you asked me the question; 'Would you like leveling to be fixed from the start to the end' the answer would be...
"Provided it can be done in a reasonable time-frame then sure, why not."
The problem we have is that fixing a lot of the problems at low end are not quick fixes, of all the suggestions I have seen to this most would take considerable resources and time which we all gather are few and far between on the AO team. Whereas I feel these suggestions would take minimal development time and go a long way to fixing the problems they are meant to address.

The second point I think would be helped by this suggestion too. Being able to do a medium or hard mission and get 2 pulses of xp, each independently capped for research should increase the speed of level 9 and 10 researches across the board. Hopefully this might make the activity less of an onerous grindfest, while providing slightly more of a 'challenge' than the current easy mob missions.

To Unluckful:
Thanks for your support, these are some good reasons and it is often easy to forget what it was like leveling your first character. I think the most memorable part for me was the endless sitting in Inferno garden waiting for someone to pick me from lft for an inf or pen mission. Thats right, I did pen missions once upon a time . This is a very bad thing to stick in a persons memory for 8 years and its about time something was done about it.

Vaurt

[Traderjill]

Where I would have to disagree is that, of the many things that need to be fixed I don't consider order to be that important when it comes to time and resource use to fix the problems.

Let me illustrate why I think the order is important.

Right now, people are doing the following to level (I know not everyone.. but this is probably the behavior that leads to these types of suggestions):

- Whatever til 80 (outdoor mobs, weavers, croakers, crip cave, etc)
- Nasc hecks (OST'd) til 80
- Ely hecks (OST'd) 80-150/160
- Inferno missions (220 rollers) 160-220

What you're proposing will probably result in something similar to the following:
(No Change) - Whatever til 80 (outdoor mobs, weavers, croakers, crip cave, etc)
(No Change) - Nasc hecks (OST'd) til 80
(No Change) - Ely hecks (OST'd) 80-150/160
(Change) - Adonis Hecks (OST'd) 150/160-205)
or
(Change)- Kiting outdoor inferno mobs (yields great xp from my experience) 160-205
(No Change) - Inferno missions (220 rollers) 205-220

Maybe its my jaded view but this is what I think will happen. People won't all of a sudden start legitimately leveling just because the teaming ranges changed, they'll just add in an additional layer (or 2) of fast-tracked teams to get through the experience faster. So basically, its just an inconvenience to players.

[Vaurt]

I am happy to agree to disagree on this point, as currently it is pure speculation as to what would happen.

I would however say that given many people pause to equip their characters at 150 and do some s10 and tl4 PvP while they are there. It would not be unreasonable to think they may use this opportunity to use the ado missions, of which at least one location is above water (by the lower level incarnator), as a good method of leveling. The likelihood of this would however depend somewhat on the spread of knowledge about the existence of ado and pen missions as an alternative. Not to mention players who don't have their own personal OST army will find it easier to level in this environment.
Furthermore solo missions can be pulled from ado, pen and inf which would give people an effective method of leveling even if they were struggling to find a team. Currently these solo missions give approximately 50% of the xp reward of the respective difficulty team mission.

Vaurt

[Traderjill]

I am happy to agree to disagree on this point, as currently it is pure speculation as to what would happen.

Well every game suggestion is pure speculation in regards to whether or not it works.. so ok Usually the discussion regarding suggestions is on the logic behind the speculation which is what I was attempting to respectfully discuss. I don't agree with your response either but rather than go over why I'll just leave it alone.

[Caloss2]

Furthermore solo missions can be pulled from ado, pen and inf which would give people an effective method of leveling even if they were struggling to find a team. Currently these solo missions give approximately 50% of the xp reward of the respective difficulty team mission.

Vaurt

Solo SL missions regulated to zone level would make a lot of sense in terms of an alternative to "waiting in garden for team" which I've never ever done, but people do it; I've always gone outside while waiting and kited mobs too.

[Vaurt]

Well every game suggestion is pure speculation in regards to whether or not it works.. so ok Usually the discussion regarding suggestions is on the logic behind the speculation which is what I was attempting to respectfully discuss. I don't agree with your response either but rather than go over why I'll just leave it alone.

You are right, all game suggestions are pure speculation. However the point of these threads is not to convince each other of every minute speculation. The point is to state your opinion in a clear and concise way to present all opinions to the development team. We could discuss something for 2 pages and either agree at the end or still disagree, a dev reading it could still disagree with both of us.
If you think that your points are incomplete or inaccurate then I would urge you to enhance them so your opinions are clear.

Vaurt

[Vaurt]

Solo SL missions regulated to zone level would make a lot of sense in terms of an alternative to "waiting in garden for team" which I've never ever done, but people do it; I've always gone outside while waiting and kited mobs too.

Solo sl missions are something that already exist, not many people seem to know they exist though, especially at low levels since they are not much superior to doing solo rk missions. You just turn up to the same NPC as pulling a team mission, however without being in a team, and they will give you a solo mission. Similar to that of RK missions.

Suggestion 1 could be extended to solo missions as well, for example this could be at the existing 50% reward of the relevant team counterpart. So yes, this should mean that solo missions at lower levels become a fairly acceptable way to get a bit of spare xp while waiting for a team. Possibly even a method of leveling in their own right for those who wish to level solo.

Vaurt

[Traderjill]

You are right, all game suggestions are pure speculation. However the point of these threads is not to convince each other of every minute speculation. The point is to state your opinion in a clear and concise way to present all opinions to the development team. We could discuss something for 2 pages and either agree at the end or still disagree, a dev reading it could still disagree with both of us.
If you think that your points are incomplete or inaccurate then I would urge you to enhance them so your opinions are clear.

Vaurt

Well as to not get into a debate on the nature of the Game Suggestions forum I'll just end the discussion here I like the idea, just not as a stand-alone solution for reasons already stated regarding why people already skip over the existing content.

[geturmoney]

Solo sl missions are something that already exist, not many people seem to know they exist though, especially at low levels since they are not much superior to doing solo rk missions. You just turn up to the same NPC as pulling a team mission, however without being in a team, and they will give you a solo mission. Similar to that of RK missions.

Suggestion 1 could be extended to solo missions as well, for example this could be at the existing 50% reward of the relevant team counterpart. So yes, this should mean that solo missions at lower levels become a fairly acceptable way to get a bit of spare xp while waiting for a team. Possibly even a method of leveling in their own right for those who wish to level solo.

Vaurt

if i remember correctly the sl solo missis start with ado and are always located somewhere under water which takes 10+minutes for a lowbie to get there. ^^

[edmaster3]

There is a simple problem to AO. They have now designed the game, to force everyone to level fast as they can. It is a lot easier to just level to 215+ and twink rather than spending millions or billions on any other lvl.

suggestion 1 i like. (Ideally there would be alot more lower lvl content)

Suggestion 2 unless other things are fixed no. I like being able to lvl my alt from 160. Every other is pure frustration, annoyance, lft waiting and mindless grinding, currently.

[Vaurt]

if i remember correctly the sl solo missis start with ado and are always located somewhere under water which takes 10+minutes for a lowbie to get there. ^^

I gave it a go and as far as I could be bothered to try (on a level 160 character) and you seem to be correct. It may be the case that you can pull to some of the lower level places at level 130. I thought I remembered remember doing one at 'The Fourth Pantheon' one time, but I could well be mistaken.

If its really an issue it could be dealt with separately, but in my opinion everything doesn't have to be handed to you on a plate. Underwater AO is part of the game at the moment, it might be a little more of a challenge to get to these missions but that is only really a problem if you think its the developers job to allow you to pull a mission and not travel anywhere to get to it.

Vaurt

PS. Would it be better if the meta suit was equipped in the neck or HUD/Util slots? Feel free to campaign for this this in a separate thread if you wish.

Edit to not double post:

There is a simple problem to AO. They have now designed the game, to force everyone to level fast as they can. It is a lot easier to just level to 215+ and twink rather than spending millions or billions on any other lvl.

suggestion 1 i like. (Ideally there would be alot more lower lvl content)

Suggestion 2 unless other things are fixed no. I like being able to lvl my alt from 160. Every other is pure frustration, annoyance, lft waiting and mindless grinding, currently.

Thanks for the support on the Suggestion 1. I knew that opinion of Suggestion 2 would crop up sooner or later from someone, and I believe the counter arguments to this have already been presented by Unluckful so I will refrain from posting these again.

[Leetlover]

wanna team with my own levelrange, just that.

[masterprogram]

After reading through everyone's comments, I believe everyone is correct in one way or another. Anarchy Online has changed so much over the years and implemented many expansion packs with out thinking about all levels to 220. Gaining levels has always been a slog and if you are not with people you know it becomes very same same and boring.
I believe that more places like the Subway or Mantis den etc should be produced and maybe the normal RK missions to be more inviting to the hungry levellers.
This way you have a change of scenery and excitement with the eye candy missions, not just being on a cliff with moving rocks or in a inferno mission following the same rooms and route.
I guess their is allot that needs changing but I still am addicted to AO........