18.7 Feedback

[Kazeran]

So now that its been out for plenty of time and everyone has had the chance to play with everything what do we want changed?

UBT - Cap cast speed to be removed, on the whole line. Mob resistants checked so it is easier to land. Longer duration in at least pvm.

Tired Limbs - For it to only break on applied damage. (attacking it, not reflects or damage shields)

Malp - Cap cast speed removed. Needing no dot to cast it. Nano cost reduction?

New DoT - No problems?

Meep nanos - Get the 5 min cool down shortened or removed. Add the lower level team meep back into game?

This is what ive seen throughout the forums. If theres anything to add or discuss further go ahead in chime in, otherwise this will be what I throw at the devs. Ive been unable to test anything myself due to a dead graphics card so Im depending on you guys for this.

On a side note making a list of mobs who are immune to UBT or highly resistant would be a help as well (f9 cords as close as you can).

[Krustyleet87]

I was testing some S10 bosses on my 150 doc and I actually kinda like the new healing changes. The line CD on CH isn't so bad now that Lifegiving Elixir is actually a useful heal now. TBH it feels more fun actually having to try to heal, compared to waiting until the tank is below 1/4 hp and just hitting CH every time.

The nano cost of LE is a little over double what it was before, but that fits with the amount of healing increase that was given, so that is pretty fair I'd say. It does require you to be a bit more aware of your nano than before, since this heal is being cast much more frequently than CH (from my experience at least). The reqs for LE are a little over 300 points higher than the live version of the nano. I wouldn't mind seeing them reduced a tad (I think they're about 1050 each - the 175 SL heal is only about 20 points higher req) but it would be doable if they were left the way they are.

The nano cost of CH has been reduced also, if I remember right it is about half of what it was before.

I do agree with the requests to remove the cast cap on UBT. One possibility could be to remove the cap, but require more nano init to get it insta cast than what is needed on the live servers. That way 220s can still insta cast, but lower lvls have a bit more cast time. Ideally less than the cap now. Just an idea there.

I know this doesn't really relate to endgame, but I figured throwing what I've seen on lower lvls couldn't hurt.

[Kazeran]

While the game is top heavy theres no reason suggestions have to be. More then welcome to include lower level views and suggestions.

LE and the two nanos below it have been buffed considerably from their original stats. These changed benefit paid players, whom will have no problems with nano cost or the skills to cast them, and to any froobs whom have the nano skills to do so. I agree the cost seems a tad on the high side and lowering them slightly would be nice. If anything I would like to see DTR buffed to match LE old heal range, Its just a few points but as far as main healing nanos It will likely replace LE for froobs.

QL Cost MM BM
Lifegiving Elixir - Heal for 2100 to 2520.
165 700 1050 1050
Recuperative Respite - Heal for 1900 to 2280.
162 567 950 950
Emergency Medical Response - Heal for 1700 to 2040.
162 633 850 850
Deep Tissue Repair - Heal for 650 to 1225.
159 200 680 751

CH has indeed been changed from 1400 to 467 which is nice as its an emergency heal now. It lets you use it without worrying about it taking to much nano to keep up your normal heals.

If its a popular opinion that we would take a longer cast time in place of capped cast time I'll suggest it. Though Im sure we would all like it to just be removed '

Disclaimer: I know froobs are extinct and FC doesnt balance anything around them but I will continue to think about them

[McKnuckleSamwich]

I'd like to see Malp changes to usable in PVM.

If the nanocost is significant (which it is) it'll mean with proper nano support docs could do pretty reasonable dmg.

It offsets heals right? spend all your nano DPSing, and you can't heal. So it's decent like that.

Also I'd like to see docs get full access to power up (ranged energy line)

And I'd also like to see docs get melee energy/ranged energy shiny in support brain

I want UBT to last longer than 30s (45s is fine even) but I get the rapid palsy thing might work too.

[Kazeran]

I'd like to see Malp changes to usable in PVM.

It is usable in pvm now but you must have a dot running to use it. The more dots the higher the damage. Remove the cast cap and reduce the nano cost some, let it be a base nuke, no dots needed, and it would be great. It currently cost 1533 at 50% to cast, I would like it down to at least 1200 personally. The cap cast speed makes it limited in its usefulness in pvm and destroys a very large part of our pvp damage. What other changes were you thinking of?

As far as doctors and the power up line, assuming that the perk changes stay as is, doctors will have full access to the whole line.

As far as adding RE/ME to the head symbs I do support that as it offers a wider variety of weapons and will bring it up to the devs when its the right time to do so. Personally I would like to see less weapon skills and general AAO added instead with the introduction of support style weapons. Example being Lust of the Xan for support or low weapon skill classes and Troa'Ler Pistol for more weapon orianted classes or those willing to make sacrifices for them, no class locks ofc. But im sure thats a pipe dream.

UBT duration is ofc the largest concern for 18.7 and I will see what we can do about the duration, at the very least for pvm. RP as well so that it wont break on reflects or damage shields.

[Dogtrauma]

Make Malp refresh duration on doc DoTs.

Alternatively, How about getting a "nuke tick" on at least one of the doctor DOT lines?

Or ofc, give docs a poison optimization library, ie. a big nano damage eff. buff with a huge heal eff reduction ( opposite of Zazen stance), possibly with some special nukes or DOTs only usable while the buff is running, it seems reasonable to make such a buff hostile to match FP and off. focus.

For the poor TL5 and 6 Docs how about a "third degree burns" nano to fill the void between 1st degree burns and Malp?

[Kazeran]

If malp were to refresh our DoTs it would have to have a cooldown of probably 20-25s and have a bigger nano cost then it does now. Any other way and I can see all the crying but I can see about something like it.

As far as a "nuke tick" Wouldnt it just be a DoT with a very large damage tick amount?

A "stance" like nano has been talked about for years and its been well received by the community so I can bring it up again. Different ones for lower levels ofc, or just one that will increase the mods based on the level like auras.

I do believe its been stated somewhere that there were plans to increase our nuke line but im not sure. It is something that Ill look into as there is a huge gap between malp and FDB.


I appreciate the thoughts everyone but don't forget this is suppose to be about the changes in 18.7 Do keep saying whats on everyones mind though.

[Dogtrauma]

As far as a "nuke tick" Wouldnt it just be a DoT with a very large damage tick amount?

If you look at NT AI-DoTs ( or Agent and Shade proc DoTs) you will find that they have a nuke and a DoT rather than just a DoT, this means that the first damage will benefit from add damage and %damage efficiency. That's what i mean by "nuke tick". The appeal is ofc that it scales with gear and requires sacrifices to fully benefit from it.

The reason that i unleashed two barrels of random ideas is that as far as i can see the changes to Malp as well as other changes sort of puts a DPS doc on the table, that could be a lot of fun if done in a balanced way and would make low level docs a lot less of a pain to level and play.

[Kazeran]

That makes sense now. I took at as a DoT with nuke level damage

That would be a nice addition to what we have. What would be the best way to incorporate that? Just add the addition damage/nuke to our current dots? Have a separate DoT line for them? Have them tied into perks like NT DoTs, Embrace being a good choice as it will be almost forced on us with the proposed changes (but who knows if it will stay as such).

Certainly something I would like other to chime in on, as with anything in this thread really.

[Dogtrauma]

Tried giving it a breather so i wouldn't just be myself spamming you, life is just not that accommodating i guess

My thought was not really to copy the perkline link to the doc DOT, however if that was to be the model then i think Starfall would be a better choice since it is entirely unrelated to healing.

[Kazeran]

The doc forums, and forums in general, have been dead so Im lucky to have this much of a response

I would prefer it to not be perk based as well, I was just throwing things out there as ideas to see if anyone else had some thoughts on it, I guess not

[kiksen]

The lower inits debuffs arn't nice either. The cast time is a bit lower, but the duration is just as bad as ubt. And landing them is not easy, so you can spam them to keep them up and toss in a heal here and there before your nano is out.
You can more or less forget about dots at low levels..

[Kazeran]

That they are not. UBT itself could have a reason, a crappy one, to have a cap time but the lower ones should have no such thing. Cast speed as well. The lowest one should be 2 seconds and the middle should be 3. There also should be another nano between the lowest and the middle, as well as the middle and UBT itself. It feels like there is just to big of a gap there.

Just for clarification, just incase, when I say UBT It is meant to entail the whole line of nanos. so when I say remove the cap from UBT I mean the whole line

DoTs have always been crap until you can cast the top RK ones and it hasn't really changed. They are a vital part of a docs toolset once you can do that though and should be a bigger part at lower levels. As of now there has been no big changes to dots but I will see what can be done about the damage at lower levels as well as the possibility of nuke ticks that were mentioned earlier

On the topic of DoTs what would everyone generally prefer? Long duration, lower damage?(rk style DoTs) Shorter duration, higher damage?(SL style DoTS) Longer duration, high damage, very high nano cost? Others?

[Hassler]

with the low duration ubt we have to cast alot more then before so a bit longer dot duration, like 40-45s would help there alot. otherwise i think using the nuke in pvp with 3 dots up is almost impossible or is just once possible(which is atleast 50% of the time a counter) until we have to recast the dots. dmg should stay the same with more ticks because we lose already dmg from the capped nuke casttime and the 4s cooldown but a bit higher nano cost to compensate for the longer duration

[Baby]

It's been mentioned in another thread already: The devs put our entire toolset in 30sec and this is just awful.

Malp should be reverted to how it was before and instead bring a pure new PvM nuke. Maybe even 2: One for TL6 and one for TL7.
As it is now, I have the opportunity to not waste time on DoTs in PvP and instead just Malp my opponent. With the 18.7 changes I'll have to be very lucky to get the chance to Malp, because of the short dura and DoTs can be pretty hard to land with NR check.

UBT should either get a dura increase to 1min or get a way lower NR check. Cast time needs to be removed either way.
I don't generally dislike the 30sec dura, it's just that no high doc is going to use it the way it is now, because being out of heal business for 5sec is no option. Trying to say: 30s is fine if in big raids, low docs or even Agents in FP can UBT again, as it was years ago. (= reduce NR check or reduce NR on mobs)

I've always been lazy when it comes to DoTs, but really just because I didn't want to cast all the time. The way it currently is on Live, is pretty balanced, with a long UBT and short DoTs.
But with a short UBT, DoT duras *have to* be increased. I cannot even believe they didn't do it already.

Meeps: I'd say remove the single meep entirely and just make both nanos teamgrid. That way we have a low and higher team meep. The 5min CD is ridiculous, since the cast time is still super long and isn't going to benefit anyone. No ones going to get a doc now, because Fixer meep got nerfed.

As for Tired Limbs: I don't think it is possible to make a difference between applied dmg and reflect dmg for making it not break. Right now, I can't think of a teamscenario where Tired Limbs is *needed*, so I'd say it's just a solo help. Thats why: Remove the reflect from the support leg symb and we will be fine.

I like the idea of the "Nuke tick" a lot. I have 10 AI perks in Solitus Beta atm, because there's nothing better to perk, so giving us a "new" perk to perk is great. I vote for Embrace then, obviously, and completely disagree with Starfall, because it's not an AI perk. I simply don't have 10 regular perks laying around with no use.
Basically the entire Embrace Perkline should be reworked, I don't think anyone really uses it. In case there won't be any changes to UBT, even though so many docs really want it changed, I'd like a init debuff in this perkline + the DoT tick and some other goodie. (I would take it also if UBT gets changed, no big deal )


Afterall, I don't want *all* of this, rather imagine it like a big bowl full of fruits and you gotta make a smoothie now. Pick one or two. But the whole package as it is now, is actually only supporting the supporting-part of docs in teams/raids. Our solo capability has been decreased a lot and in PvP this doesn't seem to be much fun either.

As for the list of UBT resi mobs: Tara / Mitaar
But that's just because these are the only ones I could test so far.
No problems so far with the new DoT. You can't cast it on yourself, but that's not an actual problem.

[Aiken]

I haven't read the entire thread to check, so forgive me if this has been mentined before.
But I did want to note that *any* level of DoT running on a target is enough to use the new version of Malp, even the lowest quality DoT's. Damage appears to scale accordingly with A,B & C lines running even with lowest versions. Something worth noting at least, instacast RK DoT's ftw?

[Hassler]

oh yeah didnt notice that. but still its only 1 nuke every 6s and from the rk dots there wont be any additional dmg. dont think it will be worth it with ppl countering atleast 50% of the nukes

[Kazeran]

with the low duration ubt we have to cast alot more then before so a bit longer dot duration, like 40-45s would help there alot. otherwise i think using the nuke in pvp with 3 dots up is almost impossible or is just once possible(which is atleast 50% of the time a counter) until we have to recast the dots. dmg should stay the same with more ticks because we lose already dmg from the capped nuke casttime and the 4s cooldown but a bit higher nano cost to compensate for the longer duration

So increase UBT duration otherwise increase DoT duration with a slight increase in nano cost to compensate for the increase? Makes sense to me.

Malp should be reverted to how it was before and instead bring a pure new PvM nuke. Maybe even 2: One for TL6 and one for TL7.
As it is now, I have the opportunity to not waste time on DoTs in PvP and instead just Malp my opponent. With the 18.7 changes I'll have to be very lucky to get the chance to Malp, because of the short dura and DoTs can be pretty hard to land with NR check.

Malp will still be usable in PVP after the changes and imo the dot wont make much of a difference. Ive always just casted a C DoT as they are the only ones worth using in pvp. The real damage comes from the cap cast time. I would like to see it take no DoTs however so it will simply be a base nuke with damage bonus if you have DoTs running.

UBT should either get a dura increase to 1min or get a way lower NR check. Cast time needs to be removed either way.
I don't generally dislike the 30sec dura, it's just that no high doc is going to use it the way it is now, because being out of heal business for 5sec is no option. Trying to say: 30s is fine if in big raids, low docs or even Agents in FP can UBT again, as it was years ago. (= reduce NR check or reduce NR on mobs)

I believe the whole reason to have UBT set to 30s is to promote teamwork, but it really does just kinda kill the docs toolset. I cant see us getting the NR check reduced even to 95% as everyone will flip if it happens. The best would could ask for in that regard is to have mobs resist to it lowered or removed. Im still going to try to get cap cast speed removed and the duration increased to at least 45s if not 1 min.

I've always been lazy when it comes to DoTs, but really just because I didn't want to cast all the time. The way it currently is on Live, is pretty balanced, with a long UBT and short DoTs.
But with a short UBT, DoT duras *have to* be increased. I cannot even believe they didn't do it already.

What happens with UBT will indeed effect how most everything else goes. Having DoTs have increased duration seems to be the best thing as of now if UBT stays the same though.

Meeps: I'd say remove the single meep entirely and just make both nanos teamgrid. That way we have a low and higher team meep. The 5min CD is ridiculous, since the cast time is still super long and isn't going to benefit anyone. No ones going to get a doc now, because Fixer meep got nerfed.

The original changes where suppose to make the top meep nano only take 30s to cast but are now 1 min instead. If they are going to stay that way a solo meep would be nice simply so we ourselves have a faster meep. A team meep at lower levels like we had would be nice though and I would happily give up a solo for a low level team meep.

As for Tired Limbs: I don't think it is possible to make a difference between applied dmg and reflect dmg for making it not break. Right now, I can't think of a teamscenario where Tired Limbs is *needed*, so I'd say it's just a solo help. Thats why: Remove the reflect from the support leg symb and we will be fine.

I don't think they can separate that either though Breakable debuffs use to be used as makeshift calms. They had a chance to break instead of a guarantee though so lowering the "on hit/damage taken" tags to 80-85% instead of 100% would likely be our best best for this to be useful again.

I like the idea of the "Nuke tick" a lot. I have 10 AI perks in Solitus Beta atm, because there's nothing better to perk, so giving us a "new" perk to perk is great. I vote for Embrace then, obviously, and completely disagree with Starfall, because it's not an AI perk. I simply don't have 10 regular perks laying around with no use.
Basically the entire Embrace Perkline should be reworked, I don't think anyone really uses it. In case there won't be any changes to UBT, even though so many docs really want it changed, I'd like a init debuff in this perkline + the DoT tick and some other goodie. (I would take it also if UBT gets changed, no big deal )

Well if you take a look here or here You will see how embrace will likely be 100% cookie cutter as those changes are to good to pass up. I don't really want to add further emphasis onto that line already. I am not oposed to having a new perk line that is nano damage/DoT orientated however I would rather stay away from forcing us to perk it to use certain DoTs and rather it just be a bonus to them if you perk it. However if its the popular opinion and the majority do want it tied into a perk line we can see what I can do.

Afterall, I don't want *all* of this, rather imagine it like a big bowl full of fruits and you gotta make a smoothie now. Pick one or two. But the whole package as it is now, is actually only supporting the supporting-part of docs in teams/raids. Our solo capability has been decreased a lot and in PvP this doesn't seem to be much fun either.

Thats why Im asking everyone thoughts on this so I know what fruit to through at our adorable dev monkeys

I haven't read the entire thread to check, so forgive me if this has been mentined before.
But I did want to note that *any* level of DoT running on a target is enough to use the new version of Malp, even the lowest quality DoT's. Damage appears to scale accordingly with A,B & C lines running even with lowest versions. Something worth noting at least, instacast RK DoT's ftw?

Yes it was mentioned years ago when the changes first came out. However with DoT over writing its kind of a meh plan. Its kinda of like asking a soldier to use a solar powered energy rifle for regualr damage, and switch to AoX for FA. Just doesnt make sense to have to do

[Dogtrauma]

I would rather stay away from forcing us to perk it to use certain DoTs

I have to say that i take the opposing position in this, i would like to have a choice between healing power and DD because that is the only realistic way of getting meaningful DD and still be somewhat balanced. I feel that current state of the game is that most profs are great at all aspects of their toolset, it would be more of a challenge if you had to trade some things away to get to the top in one or a few fields. I would quite frankly like to see iCH and possibly even BI locked behind perk reqs. as well as giving DOTs and nuke power on another line, that ideally would be mutually exclusive.

[Kazeran]

Well forcing people and giving them a choice are very different I have no problem offering choices, I rather prefer it.

I suppose the best way to put this would be a perk line opposite of Specialist Healer. Instead of buffing heal eff it would buff nano damage. If we get our nuke like extended it would be great but nano damage doesnt effect DoTs. That would mean we would need a line, or all of them, that would be buffed if you have X amount of perks into the line.

Example being Bone Eater - Damage for 892, mitigated by Disease AC.

Target Hit Health Disease AC -892 15 times, once every 2.00s.
if Perk line #x Is trained then
Target Hit Health Radiation -940 15 times, once every 2.00s.

However idk know if this is possible but I would like it the most as it doesnt punish those who dont perk it but still rewards those who do. Otherwise it would require a new line of DoTs for this specific perk line.

Bleh DoTs are a pain, we've been shot down so many times in the past about changes to them