MP Team PvM Desirability

[JustinSane4]

As Meta-Physicists, despite our nearly super-powered control over our emotions, I'm pretty sure we're all getting sick of getting team invites to endgame content pretty much only in the following situations:

A. It's a points bot and the rules don't allow MPs to be excluded.

B. It's HI, IS, Ice Golem or Inf Garden Key PBs (meaning NSD works and is needed).

C. Our friends/org take pity on us and invite us (even if they could have done whatever they were doing with just the core professions).

The reasons for this are quite well known also. There are basically 4 important team roles other than DD - tank, heals, reflects, crat initiative debuffs - leaving 2-3 spots for primarily DD (though other contributions are welcome if they come with the DD). Crat initiative debuffs are getting nerfed and moved into the same line as UBT, so subtract that one from the post re-balance list, and we're left with 3-4 spots for the non-essential professions (including MPs).

We need some reason a rational team would choose an MP for one of those spots. Going from our most recent nano-document, we'll be somewhat more useful to a team (assuming it isn't one of the handful of raids where NSD works at the moment) after those changes than we are now due to improved DD from much better nukes (and likely somewhat better pet DD, though that's speculative), vastly improved healing (though not Doc level), and debuffs that will land on bosses (NSD up 25% of the time is better than NSD up 0% of the time, particularly combined with -70% nano-damage modifier 1/3 of the time, heavy damage debuff up 1/3 the time that doesn't over-write something more useful). However, all of that may well not make us as useful as a pure DD profession such as crat, engineer, NT or shade, or as a profession that could switch to one of the primary roles in an emergency, such as Adv or MA.

Alright, of ideas for improving team desirability the two that seem to have generated the most discussion are improved debuffs and team nano regeneration. Two other theoretical ultra-longshot possibilities would be DD on the level with good DD profs and and some method for filling the primary healing role in a team (my idea there would be a nano that gives the heal pet a 150% heal modifier and the MP a -1,500 AAO and -80% nano damage modifier, or something like that). Those two though don't seem likely at all.

Option #1: Improved PvM Debuffs

Option #2: Strong team nano-regeneration

Option #3: Strong DD

Option #4: Some way to fill the primary healer role at the cost of DD

Option #5: We'll be fine with the changes already in the nano-document

Option #6: Other (to be explained in post)

I'll pass the results on to the Devs. Personally I think Option #2 is our best bet, both from a general utility and a "likely-hood we'll actually get it" perspective (but I'm not going to vote).

Thanks in advance everyone!

[JustinSane4]

Reserved for poll results

[Camar]

I would also go with option 2.

After rebalancing, nano management seems to become an important part of the game. This would fit to MP, since we always had nano refilling perks, and in the first perk docs, those got extended (new Ancient knowledge 10 perk).

But I fear just two perks won't be enough to get team invites. We would need good buffs (better reduction, maybe max nano, ticking nano heal). Unfortunately, all those buffs seem to be NT territory now, and players always go for the best, especially since buff duration is increased across the board. We see how that works with CM, great nano skill buff, but people just get it before and MPs don't get teams for it.
Another way to improve our nano healing contribution is the already suggested utility pet that heals nano instead of the Mezz pet. While that would basically be just a walking PnH, it would fit our toolset.

The problem is, if we see this as the main contribution to teams, we will basically have to be better at it than NTs. Otherwise we will be the filler if NTs aren't available. They will probably beat us in DD (depends on the attack pet, so not sure yet), and have a nice bit of CC (roots and
the nice nano-burst options)

[Anarrina]

Poll started. I left the options multiple choice.

[JustinSane4]

Thank you. Much better .

[Xandathrii]

#2 got my vote. As a upcomming doc, i see this as a huge advantage having a MP onboard!

[lainbr]

#1+#2 ofc ^^

[Xtremtech]

I went for 2 and 4. Heals and Nano heals.

I do think that the new version of the DD debuffs are unbalanced relative to other debuffs and that the 30% uptime issue will cause them to be weakened for team contribution.... but honestly, I don't see debuffs as being likely to provide a main contribution to team desirability. They can be 'nice to haves' but unless MPs have something else to provide as a 'main' role, then MPs will still have problems with team desirability.

Rationally, we know that damage debuffs act in the same way as heals; incoming damage is removed. But, for whatever reason, this is not how players feel about them. They tend to focus on things that are actively seen to be happening - like heals, calms etc. In theory, the combination of heal pet and damage debuffs should make the MP a great substitute healer... but in reality, this has never really been seen by other players and, as such, doesn't really contribute to team desirability.

There's also an issue with debuff balance Vs mobs. There are two primary content areas of PvM; levelling and special. In levelling teams, players generally choose low risk/high XP content. If debuffs are made powerful enough to make a strong contribution in Special content (such as instances and bosses) then they'll tend to trivialise levelling content completely. But if they're made weak enough to fit well in levelling content... then they're pointless in Special content. Also, Special content is generally supposed to be really challenging and enabling debuffs powerful enough to make a primary role against that content, will tend to make the content too easy in combination with the classic holy trinity of roles (often leading to immunities to debuffs on bosses, which negates their contribution).

There's a final issue regarding damage debuffs in partcular, in that their interaction with other effects makes their contribution weaker. An MP damage debuffing in a team without reflects/init debuffs or big evade buffs, will be very powerful. But the reality is that the contribution of the damage debuffs will always be reduced strongly in teams that do have reflects/init debuffs... and since reflects are ubiquitous pretty much and init debuffs are held by two core trinity role professions (Doc and Crat)... there's always a likelihood that this weakening will happen.

All in all, I suspect that trying to make MP debuffs into a main contribution by increasing their power isn't going to work as a main contribution. So I went with Nano and HP healing.

That said though... if there were widespread changes made to mobs and mob AI, such that they cast nanos pretty much continually, including debuffs and self-heals as well as nukes etc.... and their nanocosts were high enough that nanopool became a real issue for mobs... then the MP debuff contribution might be much more powerful. Also, if special mobs continue to have immunity and high resistance to init debuffs, then damage debuffs may be more important.

Really, the key to MP contribution with debuffs doesn't lie in the nano documents... it lies in the mob design.

X

[Metafly7]

Im going for #1 and #2, but mainly i want #1 because the Damage debuffs that we have is something unique in a way that as extended as weve had it, no other proffesion has used it. Its something that i think should remain in the game and therefor it needs a longer timer but smaller ammount without an immunity.

[Shareida]

Nano pool management is going to be a mayor concern for all professions, the job could fall back on NT, MP or trader. Obvious choice.

[-Klod-]

Nano pool management is going to be a mayor concern for all professions, the job could fall back on NT, MP or trader. Obvious choice.

As we all know, whines will eventually make it to end up not being so bad (I can already see hordes of soldiers and enfs without any IP in nano pool whining back and forth).

Also, I doubt they will remove item based nano recharge.

[swedoc]

I opt for improved pvm debuffs, but if ubt starts landing on bosses after rebalnce (witch i have no idea on, just speculating) i'de say option 2 would be best for us.

but how about some perk that makes the healpet do a nano hot (for a while) in adition to healing on the person it's on? would be kinda interesting thing

[Gatester]

I voted #6 Other for an increase in team-support role.

We can reduce Nano damage and Heal effeciency, I see no reason why MP's could not buff it as well. So that is what I would "like" is powerful support effects which allow MP's to supplement all areas of casting and not just through mocham's and cost. I would also make the stronger cost buffs team buffs, which does not directly increase nano-regen but supports it.

I see traders as a melee/ranged supporter in pvm and would like MP's to be the caster supporter. If I was wanting to guarantee MP's get teams though, I would screw over all the other professions with heavy nano-costs as the documents are offering and give us the nano regen toolset. Being a "primary" debuffer is incredibly unlikely to get us teams and is not viable or balanced at the maginitudes people are requesting along with all the other abilities MP's have and are going to be given, so I cannot actually choose that.

[Redbar]

Comps/web as team "aura" effects instead of buffs? (a bit like how reflect auras in SL encourage bringing along a reflect totem instead of potentially just getting RRFE and running off).

[-Klod-]

Comps/web as team "aura" effects instead of buffs? (a bit like how reflect auras in SL encourage bringing along a reflect totem instead of potentially just getting RRFE and running off).

In such case, people will pick traders over MPs, because they can buff weapon skills as well (unless umbrals got changed?).

Needs something more unique and more useful as a team aura. Heal efficiency aura perhaps (25% as a maximum, just enough so we don't break our PvP debuff role and only if the "immunity" system gets removed or reworked)?

[madmax]

DD and something. Nothing can go wrong with DD it is a sure thing in every team. With DD and a bit of everything specially debuffs and some healing or nanoreg will make MPs sought after in teams.

If there is no DD in the equation some other thing has to be "game breaking" and Kintaii promised they won't,they even nerfed things more than they are now.

[Tanana]

DD and something. Nothing can go wrong with DD it is a sure thing in every team.

This.

All pet classes should be equal in terms of DD provided to the team.

Engie pets should be able to tank and hold agro better, Crats should come with their extremely useful debuffs and MP's should bring additional healing/nano restoration...but in terms of pure DD they should all be on an even platform.

[lainbr]

This.

All pet classes should be equal in terms of DD provided to the team.

Engie pets should be able to tank and hold agro better, Crats should come with their extremely useful debuffs and MP's should bring additional healing/nano restoration...but in terms of pure DD they should all be on an even platform.

And thats why I dont like #4. But I also dont really agree tha DD bring team desireability unless its massive DD (like NTs and Shades). Why? I can od 90% of the Soldiers I played with, but they get teams and MPs dont ^^ Just because ppl thinks MPs are crap dd.

So, unless our new Scourge pet bump our dd to Crat/Eng dd level, nobody will really notice our dd.

Basically I voted #2 because it can make us team desired and voted to #1 because we must be top 1 in nanoheal to really get invites if only option #2 is taken.

I would ask for some passive way to nanoheal for MP. Wondering if its possible

[Orii]

Wheres my IMPROVED PVP debuffs option?

[sultryvoltron]

I voted PvM debuffs, Strong DD, and Ability to sub as a healer.

Here's why I picked that third one. I envision AO being a bit more team-cooperative post rebalance. Now, while an Advy/MA/Agent/MP can never replace a Doctor, perhaps a top notch MA + a top notch MP can make up for that missing Doctor and keep the whole raidforce healed up for major endgame raids. Or maybe an Agent + Advy, or MP + Advy + Fixer HoTs, etc etc. I think you get the idea.

It's similar to my thoughts on substitute tanks, but that's not for this thread.