Thread: Friday with Means - November 12th, 2010 - Changes large and small

  1. #261
    How about more people do as just a select few have done already: Say if you like the proposed changes or not, and if you're against them, offer up a reasonable solution. The whole "OMG this is gonna kill AO" or "I quit, /wrists" or any other type of doomsday prediction isn't helping.

    Considering, unless I missed something, no *absolute* final price, amount of usage restrictions, or conditions outside of a 220 have been announced and, as with everything, I'm sure things are subject to change. Clear, level headed responses > /emorage attacks at FC or threats to cancel your account(s).

    All that said, I'm all for the proposed changes, even though I'd personally like to see some kinds of restrictions outside of how much money you're willing to spend.

  2. #262
    While I'm not against any of the proposed changes, I would be willing to make a compromise in the level boost thing. Only allow it to be done once to 199, and unusable ever again on that account (or accounts linked with that account). "Choose your profession wisely" so to speak.
    Autohead 220/30/70 Solitus Soldier - Synergy Factor
    Auron 220/25 Keeper ::: Shadowslave 220/23 Shade ::: Radius 211/21 Nano-Technician
    Sunza 207/21 Martial Artist ::: Voss 182/15 Engineer ::: Shadowhead 150/16 Agent

  3. #263
    Levels for cash and VP for cash to buy yesdrop items to sell for creds to finance your level 199 toon does not require a rational alternative be offered. It's simply "NO, this is a bad idea and fails on so many levels." The only difference between this and cred sellers is that FC rakes in the profit, not a 3rd party.
    Quote Originally Posted by Esssch View Post
    I think you're wrong. I think AO is the most balanced MOBA out there.

  4. #264
    <3 the social stuff!

    I find the buff-package rather unsocial tho...it's a great way to get friends and known to players to ask for buff help etc

    That being said under certain circumstances some items we will be selling may potentially contribute to relative player power,
    Meh, thats a bit silly. There's alternatives altho currently it's not all that bad. =)

    With LE-armors (that were designed for lesser advanced/casual players) for example; Why not use the RK-shop system where you can obtain weapons/armor/items from QL 1 -125 quite easy (from an LE shop of course)?

    This could be done with either giving a little VP-reward (1 mission enough for a set and fully upgraded weapon for low level/or make weapon-upgrade level-progressive with updates) very easy to low level players so they can buy finished sets at a ultra-low price for that specific QL-range.

    Or more type-drops and misc on the LE-mission bosses.

    Then as you get higher up it it costs more so you need to do BS and is upgrade-dependant.

    There you have a less steep start of the game

    I think using PP for 'poweritems' is a step in the bad direction, but oh well.
    Last edited by Lletah; Nov 13th, 2010 at 00:47:40.

  5. #265
    Can we at least see Intelligent symbs in that since it's a pain to get them I mean for the players that been raiding for along time and myself I still dont have 3/4s of the intels I need yet. And everyone will still have to work to equip alphas in, not everyone is just drop in easy.

  6. #266
    I've read the entire thread so far, took awhile, and can see good and bad points from all side but some of this stuff got me thinking FC hasn't thought some stuff out very well.

    First of all, BS on rk2 runs very sporadically with the exception of 150 and 175+ bs, I can actually do daily on 3 toons everyday at 175-214. I'm not a big pvp'er but I go have fun or APT up and kill peeps. Now the problem that I see is that since BS does not run as often or is so one sided that it means it disbands right after daily is done is going to be made even more apparent after vp becomes buyable. I've been able to get about 200k vp since i came back 2months ago on a few toons and thats pretty decent to me, anyone that spends 2 weeks farming LE mish instead of doing BS for 15mins a day and get far more then you would ever do in missions has some serious issues lol. My gimp toons get killed who cares I'm not there for titles just get some gear and leave. Ok the problem, if BS dies completely wouldn't that mean the only decent way to get vp would be to buy it? I for one have said I would not play any game with micro-transaction, though I'll make the exception here since I've been playing since 02, but if I am forced to pay for something because there is no alternative anymore ingame that's another story.

    Now making ofab yes-drop is a dream come true but making vp buyable is not something that I would recommend to go along with this. Pick one or the other maybe make vp transferable, I think both being available is not a good idea.

    It has been just a few weeks since BS changes and still so hard to get some running that FC needs to take a hard look at this again and make sure if this comes to live that BS will still run for the people that will not be paying for any stuff. I know I won't be paying for anything ever, but I ccl if someone else did. I don't hate pvp that much to pay actually money for it, rather spend that money on stuff that actually exists


    Lastly, as people have said we're paying to much money for this at this point in its life, and euros get shafted even more. I hope at some point FC looks at this and makes some adjustment hopefully will make people came back or at least take a look for a bit more then the free play times we have been getting.
    Last edited by mainframe; Nov 13th, 2010 at 00:17:53.
    HEAR MY WAR CRY "NOT IN THE FACE, NOT IN THE FACE"

    My Pillow of Death shall SMITE THEE!

  7. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by Adva View Post
    How about more people do as just a select few have done already: Say if you like the proposed changes or not, and if you're against them, offer up a reasonable solution. The whole "OMG this is gonna kill AO" or "I quit, /wrists" or any other type of doomsday prediction isn't helping.
    Though you have a point, it isnt neccesarely so that anyone have anymore to add than "I dont like it anymore". Wich should be reasonable enough?
    It would certainly be nice for fc to know why people quit, no doubt, and I hope that anyone with spesific reasons tell fc why. Still, I think its better to say I quit whatever reasons then to just cancell and disappear. At least a rage/emo quit tells that it means something.

  8. #268
    1 - You can transfer toons beetween account allrdy (for a cost i guess ? If not, it needs a real life money cost)

    2 - What about official character selling rather then this lvling to 199 thing ? At each sale FC would get some cash from the character transfer (it would still be illegal to sell full account or FC couldn t make cash). See EvE exemple : http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard...annelID=734105

    Selling VP, token and XP (+% XP stim is like selling some XP) sounds dumb to me, why these element and not the rest ? There are so many elements that constitue a "grind" (or the purpose of the game depending how you see it) :

    - Regular XP
    - Research
    - AXP
    - Tokens
    - VP
    - Credits
    - Quest for nodrop/unique prof abilities
    - Nodrop in raid/instance

    I really think getting the gear itself is a lot more time consuming (nodrops + quests + credits for yesdrop or gettin em yourself + symbiants setup + twinking gear needed for twinking + usable items + alternative gear to hotswap etc etc etc) then tokens (specially since we got dailies now and can do our token w/o grinding em, but rather just from player the game), VP or XP.

    Edit : Ho yeah with all the dailies mission and XP added to quest there isn't any need to speed up the process more imo, specially token (dailies), VP (dailies + looting corpse + Notum Miners in PvP PF). If there is still something that need to be more accessible/shorter to do it s gathering gear (see droprates).
    Last edited by Djiax; Nov 13th, 2010 at 00:25:18.

  9. #269
    reading through this thread, i almost got confused and thought i was reading chicken little.

    considering how this game is a p2p service, and all companies from banks to hotels provide micro-transactions, I'm surprise this didnt hit ao years ago.

    considering how this game is graphically outdated, has a declining population, is not noob friendly and is run on a sliver of a budget, im amazed that a dead-horse-kicking-boot didn't take a swing at this game years ago.

    why some people are QQing as much as they are, shows how out of touch they are with the bigger picture of AO. froobs play for free, and it takes them much longer to level, their equipment sucks and the amount of content pales in comparison to what paid players get. fact is, alot of froobs look at paid players like some of the paids players now view the future boobs (bought from shop noobs). there is already different tiers in ao from those that want to pay nothing, to those that want to pay $5 monthly, to those that waht to pay $10-$15 monthly. now there is a new tier being added, and some paid players (including myself initially) are looking though froob glasses at this.

    are paid players more powerful than sloobs or froobs? hell yeah! does giving money to funcom make this possible? Yes! will the boobs be more powerful than paid players? not really.... end of story. if funcom starts funding ao more because profit goes up, and new content and game engine get here faster (or at all), than its all good.

    think about the bigger picture of the game, and you will maybe see the positive. constantly proclaiming doom does nothing for anyone.
    wtf happened to my avatars eyebrows?

    I used to listen to Dubstep in the 90's... every time I connected to the internet.

  10. #270
    Quote Originally Posted by sawtyss View Post
    Levels for $$:
    I wholeheartedly aggree with people before me. Not once, and not twice, have I helped some newb level while doing some pwrlvls myself. They learned from me, I gave them some ideas, and some of them turned out pretty great. I wonder if it would be the same if they just had to rely on other noobs playing...
    ...and you can keep doing that. No reason you have to buy your levels. As others have said, people really insistent on getting to a certain level quickly will be the ones powerleveling and will be parked on kite hill and NOT helping new players anyway. Honestly, it's not like a 220 will roll a new toon every day and we're robbing the low levels of a huge resource.

    There's also plenty of knowledge and experienced players out there under level 220. People who want to give help and advice will still do that. People who just want to be a specific level FAST won't be the ones stopping to help.

    As as side note- I roll new toons all the time and help out new players as I come across them in the subway or temple. I sometimes wonder if I'm doing them any favours by powerleveling them. IE- I meet a lvl 8 in the subway and invite to team. We chat a bit and I give some advice as we go. Invariably, after a while, he's realized that he's not really contributing much to damage and I see that he's figured out /follow and has gone afk. We blow through levels and he's 25 in less than an hour. I've just helped create a Subway noob (perhaps Snoob?) who's been leveled out of his own equipment and has barely used his own toolset. Some people can barely kill things their own level at this point. Teaming noobs with powerlevelers makes me nervous .

    Anyway, I think this is more about a player's mindset than the option to buy levels. Some people will want to level fast and some will take their time and help noobs. Not having the option to buy levels won't make people more helpful- nor will giving the option force people to use it.
    Last edited by Dredd; Nov 13th, 2010 at 01:07:23.

  11. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by SoulTarder View Post
    reading through this thread, i almost got confused and thought i was reading chicken little.

    considering how this game is a p2p service, and all companies from banks to hotels provide micro-transactions, I'm surprise this didnt hit ao years ago.

    considering how this game is graphically outdated, has a declining population, is not noob friendly and is run on a sliver of a budget, im amazed that a dead-horse-kicking-boot didn't take a swing at this game years ago.

    why some people are QQing as much as they are, shows how out of touch they are with the bigger picture of AO. froobs play for free, and it takes them much longer to level, their equipment sucks and the amount of content pales in comparison to what paid players get. fact is, alot of froobs look at paid players like some of the paids players now view the future boobs (bought from shop noobs). there is already different tiers in ao from those that want to pay nothing, to those that want to pay $5 monthly, to those that waht to pay $10-$15 monthly. now there is a new tier being added, and some paid players (including myself initially) are looking though froob glasses at this.

    are paid players more powerful than sloobs or froobs? hell yeah! does giving money to funcom make this possible? Yes! will the boobs be more powerful than paid players? not really.... end of story. if funcom starts funding ao more because profit goes up, and new content and game engine get here faster (or at all), than its all good.

    think about the bigger picture of the game, and you will maybe see the positive. constantly proclaiming doom does nothing for anyone.
    Much of what you say about the game is true, but that makes any scheme to take more money off paying players .... unlikely to be very successful, at least from my perspective.

    If the plan was just to offer stuff that froobs might want to pay for, that would seem to make more sense but I doubt there are many 220 froobs who will be buying a pre-leveled alt or froobs with LE who will be buying ofab.

  12. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by Deaconfrost View Post
    SOME PPL DONT LIKE TO PVP! lol, Why is that such a hard concept to get?
    Ok, so armor/weapon should be easy to get, as was intended for casual/lesser advanced players.

    Then, for those who not like pvm-grinding so much and wished to use their 1000000000000 amount of VP on something, maybe they can get more items/powerfull items avaible in the LE-shop that they can obtain via pvp?

    Fair game...

    Imo thats great way to balance it. Leaves players with options and encounters with a little unique rewards at least

  13. #273
    I don't know if this point of view has been offered yet in this thread but I felt that my last post lacked some reasoning, so I will add it here now. Saying that I personally wont enjoy this kind of thing and that I wouldn't want to play a game that offers this kind of service is well and good but without stating my reason for thinking that way, it's kinda useless. So here it is.

    The reason why I don't play MMO's that offer levels, gear and such for real life money is because it ruins one of the major aspects that I find to be important for my enjoyment of a MMO. I really do NEED players of a MMO to be equal. I need other people to be the same as me and I need to be the same as them. Now, specifically that means that I need one player to be faced with exactly the same obstacles and time-requirement as any other player. This is based on a set of rules which goes as follows:

    1. Every players progression must be achieved through ingame mechanics.
    2. Exploiting must be practically nonexistent and must be dealt with quickly and efficiently by the game company.
    3. Any difference in payment with RL money must scale downwards, not upwards. Meaning that if you choose to pay any other amount than the standard fee for the full game, it must be less money for less ingame access. Paying more than the standard fee can not be an option unless it's for social/visual stuff only. At most I will respect a players ability to buy specific items that long term paying players got for FREE.

    Those are my personal rules.

    The reason I can't enjoy a MMO that doesn't follow these rules is because I can't immerse myself and enjoy a MMO-world and its players if I'm not 100% sure that everyone I see around me ingame have faced the exact same obstacles as everyone else. I need to be able to look at people around me and instantly know that they used ingame mechanics to have what they have and be what they are. If we have the option to buy things for real life money then that goes out the window for me. Immersion is shattered and the game ends up feeling a bit hollow, pointless and bland to me. I don't just play a MMO for its game mechanics, so I look beyond how it affects my character and I look at how it affects my feel for the game as a person.

    I know some of you will read this and go "..well.. aren't you a strict elitist silly person".
    Well, this is how I feel about it.

    I just feel like the world I have immersed myself in for all these years would cease to exist and just become another collection of game mechanics if this were to happen.

    I just need everyone that plays AO to make or break themselves based on what they do ingame. That's what makes the world of AO what it is. If we start including RL money into the mix when it comes to levels, gear, tokens and so on.. then the illusion of Rubi Ka shatters and it becomes something which I have no desire to be a part of. Not because I hate it. But because it's not fun for me. That's all.

    I just can't have fun if the integrity of AO's world gets compromised like this. It's kinda fragile, like a balloon. Do this and for me personally, it's letting all the air out of the balloon.
    Last edited by Wrangeline; Nov 13th, 2010 at 01:27:02.
    Veteran of Equilibrium

  14. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by Means View Post
    Victory Points:

    A great many people enjoy PvP, while at the same time a great many people do not. Points will be available in the shop for those who would rather avoid the experience altogether. At the same time Basic OFAB armor pieces (not upgraded) will become Yes-Drop so can be sold by players with large surplus amounts of VP.
    Just dropping in to give my opinion about the new shop, and I have to say that the only item i really object to is selling victory points. I can justify other items being sold, like tokens, where buying them is just an option when there are several ways these days to get 2500, and eventually every char reaches that amount, one way or another, and experience stims, that just provide a boost of the leveling speed but don't actually change the endgame, and even the level boost, if it's only available to people with 220 chars, but victory points imho is just a step too far.
    The main use of victory points is to obtain ofab armor, and while I agree with the idea of making it yesdrop, selling victory points is effectively putting ofab armor in the shop, and that would break the standards you guys set of not adding anything that can change a char power at endgame. That's not acceptable. Making the armor yesdrop already is a huge step in letting people that don't like PvP avoid it, at the same time giving PvPers a way to make credits for PvM doing something they like. Selling victory points for cash is the same as putting ofab armor for sale in the shop, and that is a step too far.

  15. #275
    Dear FC,

    Will it be relatively cheaper to buy a premade 50/100/150/199 toon to provide all standard buffs (e.g. wrangle, SFA, FG/ES, Behe, Mochies, EP, etc) than say, 10 individual buffs? What's the ROI?

    So like, how many single buffs will it take to cost more than a 100 MP, trader, agent, doc, 150 enf, etc?

    Froobs, get blitzing ql125+ nanos now, they're going to be going through teh roof!
    bai2u!
    -::l2pvp!1::-
    Electronite: FFA also destroyed Clan hegemony when it comes to tower wars. Ironically the downfall was started by the most active pvpers. Another ironic thing is that the downfall happened due to pvm conflict. Silirrion: (We have pretty good anti-troll filters by now though) Means: Thong-wearing troxes will always be a part of this game and a point of AO pride. Keldros: Obviously reall trolls don't use conditioner Marlark: If this forum was Swedish in it's language .. id pawn you any day. 220 NT: tl7 is a joke most of the time. 90% of the people are double double dead. some are worth debuffing tho. Mastablasta: you guys are right and I'm wrong. Ebag: No. You alpha me'd due to the stat bug. More Ebag: I don't have any twinks currently, nor do I participate much in mass TL7 PvP (though I do go occasionally, usually just to watch). Questra: an MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

  16. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by quitter187 View Post
    So when I head over to ely or inf or any dungeon/pf to level and everyone is gone because they paid to level up, so I head over to BS to have some fun but everyone has bought thier VP/tokens.


    What exactly am I going to do in this game?
    qft

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkstabber View Post
    you forgot the "might" of the creditvpseller, that is, Funcom
    Fixed that for ya.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deaconfrost View Post
    No they wont, because as Means said you already have to have a 220 to have access to this "perk"
    With the current ability to bypass/exploit game mechanics (aka OST'ing), you don't have to know how to play the game to get to 220.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deaconfrost View Post
    lol... so let me get this straight, if PVPERs with hundreds of thousands of VP (that NONPVPERS dont have and have no reasonable expectation of EVER attaining) buy OFAB armor and sell/give it to alts thats ok...

    But buying VP and then having the temerity to spend that VP on items for a 199 pre-lvled toon is game destroying?

    Try again...
    The former is buying the VP with credits. The latter is buying the VP with real cash. Huge difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkstabber View Post
    /me wonders how long it'll be before FC starts credselling
    Selling VP is selling credits. I could forsee the credit sellers finding an easy way to invest real cash in order to turn a profit by turning VP into credits. Gee, thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kintaii View Post
    I'm gettin' close to it, so I suggest the personal infighting and bickering come to a screeching halt. ;P

    While there might be a small amount of arguing among the playerbase, I think the general consensus is to take your item store plans (as they exist currently) and place them in a very dark area...

  17. #277
    Ya know reading just the main part, and bypassing the comments cause well I do have some life (maybe not much but some).
    For the most part I don't see too much of an issue with most of the stuff other then selling of VP. And don't you guys think it's a little premature to be selling something like that. Wouldn't it be wiser to wait until after balancing to sell something like that? I mean if you think you guys are getting some heat now, just wait until someone drops a few hundred on armor and weapons and you guys go and nerf it all out. You think people are pissed now. Then again for all I know the plan could be to nerf all the other armors and leave ofab as it is.

    I know mall games are all the rage, but keep in mind those games are designed from get go. What I'm seeing here is FC trying to shove a square peg into a round hole. Personally I would like to see some numbers and forecasts for how you think these things are going to work out. I mean I'm hoping this was done with some kind of master long term plan where you guys really thought it out and not just sat around with a bong thinking "dudes this will be awesome, pass the funoinons".

    It is kind of sad thought, you did seem to listen to your player base and give them a backhanded solution. A lot of people have been begging for a non pvp way to get vp, and you guys come up with the idea of selling it for money. Nice! Honestly I have to say this just looks like a screw the players over in a mad grab for cash plan.
    I don't PvP becasue my rlpeen is big enough so I don't need to make up for it with my epeen.

    "Ahhhhh that was a good dinner. Now it's time to hit the playground and watch the little girls."

  18. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrangeline View Post
    sensible stuff, snipped!
    While in essence I agree with what you've said, the reality is that since I actually play my toons and don't go for outside tanks or get kited in a medsuit, a huge proportion of players I meet have not faced the same challenges I have for an equivalent toon as it stands. Making these levels buyable by people who value efficient leveling over actually playing the game they pay for, will mean I have less gimps to worry about when I'm teaming strangers, less medsuit miracles in inferno, and a greater proportion of players actually doing content will be playable toons instead of leeches.

    So while I agree with the principles behind your post, I think these principles are already shattered by the reality of how people are playing this game, and from a disenchanted but practical perspective, my game experience may be improved by the removal of people who are all about the destination rather than the journey from LFT.



    With regard to buyable VP, well, people who will pay money to avoid doing BS are not people I care to fight. I prefer enemies with a bit of spirit ;p

    Tradeable OFAB seems likely to have a greater impact at least for me, since it'll mean the average round of BS will include a far lower variety of professions. We'll be seeing a *hell* of a lot more of the more popular PvP professions, and virtually none of the less popular professions. I'm not sure how I feel about this. I think it will at least mean that people on BS are more likely to fight and less likely to mindlessly cap points until the round ends. Obviously there's negative implications as well...
    Last edited by -Stage-; Nov 13th, 2010 at 02:02:56.
    <Lazy> who knew ao f*rum denizens were such homophobes?

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  19. #279
    Another way it could be done?

    At no point should VP be sold via PP imo, there's other options to fix players up with the content.


    • Ofab regular Armor/Weapon yesdrop, ok...fine. It was ment for casual players to decrease performancegaps.
    • Then special LE items/higher valuable/advanced items nodrop.
    • Alternatively make upgraded ofab armor/weapon more available at lower levels. Ql 1-125.


    Decreases the grind for those who not like pvp but still won't clear/wipe the BS entirely for pvm'ers.

    Maybe make som pvm-rewards available in LE-shop too for those who not like pvm.



    And NO to buffs, it's a social game kinda and we should perform ok at low level without it aswell
    Last edited by Lletah; Nov 13th, 2010 at 02:04:27.

  20. #280
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrangeline View Post
    (a lot of stuff)
    Wrangeline pretty much sums up my feelings on the matter, in a manner more eloquent that I would be able to manage (particularly right now after a night on the town).

    The graphics engine, the rebalance and even the new player experience pale in significance to the feel of the entire game, and the community that will inherit it, in comparison to these proposed changes.

    AO was never designed for this. It's gameplay, mechanics and ultimately community did not develop with this.

    It will be a completely different game.

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