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Thread: DO NOT stop grafts from dropping, because:

  1. #1

    DO NOT stop grafts from dropping, because:

    Consolidating reasons from other threads into this post, because this is the one change I thought was most harmful to everyone universally and the game as a whole, creating some serious imbalances.

    1) Grafts round out missing pieces of profession toolkits. How else is a soldier going to be able to occasionally root a mob? Some professions have no crowd control whatsoever. I can see selectively removing some grafts, either because they're useless, like 1HB Incompetence, or because they are overly profession specific and shouldn't be broadly available, like a calm or something, or they have some specific interaction with a profession's perk setup or other running nanos, like Zazen related whateverage, and implementing it as a graft would be too complicated. What I can't see is soldiers not being able to root a mob every 30 minutes. Anybody else want to tell the thread what you can't do without access to grafts?

    2) If old players keep their grafts, but new players can't get them, this creates its own balance problem. Even when new players reach 220 and have all their endgame gear, AI30, all research, etc, they will be at a disadvantage compared to players who have done nothing to merit having a benefit except for playing for as little as a day longer than the aforementioned newbie.

    3) Old players keeping grafts and new players not having access to them creates an economy problem. Grafts become another unobtainably expensive item for people to charge increasingly more and more for.

    Either don't change grafts at all, or remove them entirely while giving soldiers (for instance) a root to use.

  2. #2
    Sure hope this gets seen, (and digested) by some dev, though, as is our beloved AO; doubtful. ^^
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  3. #3
    I'd really appreciate clarification on this. I've seen that some haven't been able to roll new ones so far, but that doesn't mean anything. Rolling items can be a pain, even with easy rollable things.

    If they can't be rolled anymore, but existing ones will remain ingame, I agree with you. This will hurt the economy.
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  4. #4
    Typical Funcom style solution would be to agree with the created imbalance between vets with the grafts and new people not able to obtain them and just remove them altogether.
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  5. #5
    Looking at AOItems for this patch shows the icons for a graft have been removed so I'm guessing at least some will be gone from game completely, looking at that might be bigger issues than grafts

    https://tl.aoitems.com/history/info/18.7.0.17/
    Last edited by Gaveup; Aug 9th, 2014 at 12:28:18.
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  6. #6
    That *could* be an indication that the grafts that remain in the game won't function anyway, but then, it could be an indication that they just haven't completed the new icons for grafts or something, or something got broken, or whatever other technical problem could have come up.

  7. #7
    Did the way grafts work change recently or something?

    Why talk about "What I can't see is soldiers not being able to root a mob every 30 minutes."?

    A QL 200 Boosted graft had a 1000 second reduction which gave it a recharge of well below 15 minutes. On top of that you could use two different root grafts that locked different skills so removing grafts is basically removing the ability to cast a (pretty much) unavoidable root every 7-8 minutes.

    This doesn't just effect those professions without roots, my trader always used both root grafts so that you can do two things at once (since regular root would block casting drain).

    It's also not a change that drastically impacts PVM. While a root graft can be useful in specific situations in PVM, it is more or less essential equipment in PVP.

    By the word essential, I mean...if you have this item you can win in PVP situations where you would normally lose.

    If they do stop these from being obtainable then they need to remove them completely from the game. The imbalance between a player with 2 instacast, 'unavoidable' roots and one without would be too great.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Roscoe View Post
    It's also not a change that drastically impacts PVM. While a root graft can be useful in specific situations in PVM, it is more or less essential equipment in PVP.
    Reflect graft

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Roscoe View Post
    (stuff)
    "Thirty minutes minus five seconds per QL" was just more unwieldy than I felt like typing. Also, not everyone is going to be using the highest QL graft possible (they may not have it, they may be new and not have money or a high level character to roll one with).

    This doesn't just effect those professions without roots
    No, but it effects them the most!

    (more)
    Sounds to me like the solution would be to make grafts respect nano resist.

  10. #10
    or they could add reflect/cub grafts as reward for quests, because there are alot of quests nobody does cause rewards suck

    And simply make root grafts pvm only
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  11. #11
    All the changes they are making is just seriously making me SMH :< just leave the damn game alone and make it better, why are they getting rid of all the stuff that makes the game unique when its not hurting very much? all the "balancing" seems to be revolved around pvp, while I do enjoy it I dont think a game should ever screw over pvm to try and balance PVP when its never really possible. Every prof knows if they see X prof they should probably just run, and how to counter this and that ect.

    The grafts are just one more unique thing going away like tiny agents, thats seriously one of my favorite things about my agent since they are so gimp beside being a doc. Oh 40 sec CH nevermind, worthless again.

    Whats happening right now, is everyone is buying, rolling every graft they can possibly find attempting to get rich when they are gone, but if you guys are taking away the damn things you need to take the ones that are already in the game away as well I mean seriously. Its unfair to new players to pvp someone with them and people will be selling them for as much as 300CC since they will never be in the game again.

  12. #12
    Remove them. Or don't.

    Please do not stop them from dropping, but leave them on players who already have them.

    This is a huge slap to the face of all new characters for both vets and new players. As was stated, a reflect graft and root graft alone (excluding things like FG/ES/Blood Circle) are all very useful grafts that give an advantage that is significant in a fight.

    4 additional HD at 2 second tick is +120 HP a minute. And while that might not seem like alot, at level 200 (with this obtainable trick) over the course of a drawn out 2-3 minute fight this functions as an additonal heal perk. 3 minutes in and you already have 360 points of healing. (Additionally, Blood Circle actually has a small heal to it already. So if it is used AFTER damage is taken, it counts for more. (67-171). A potential total of 500+ points of healing.

    Add reflect graft to that, and the gap grows even more. Toss in a root graft and LoS advantage as a result. And it's game over for two characters of the exact same EVERYTHING.


    Again. Remove the graft, or do NOT remove it. But whatever you do, do not remove drop rates and leave these things in game. Please.


    I am all for making them more rare. Or removing them in the name of balance. But they have to still be obtainable IF they are obtainable at all. This game does not need anymore disadvantaged-handicapped players. Especially with a potential group of new bloods showing up shortly. Only to all be root grafted to death, or be outperformed by that guy with that old item that they can't get anymore. (Unless someone is stupid enough to sell it).
    Last edited by Herkulease; Aug 19th, 2014 at 17:16:36.
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  13. #13

    Funcom employee

    Grafts will be restored to loot tables. The nano fingers, blister packs, and other peasant forms of grafts will not be restored, however. The removal of grafts was a part of a larger set of changes which have been vetoed - Sorry for the scare.
    Henry "Michizure" Senger
    Lead Designer
    ___________________________________
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Michizure View Post
    Grafts will be restored to loot tables. The nano fingers, blister packs, and other peasant forms of grafts will not be restored, however. The removal of grafts was a part of a larger set of changes which have been vetoed - Sorry for the scare.

    Michi talks more than out current gd does!!!

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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Michizure View Post
    Grafts will be restored to loot tables. The nano fingers, blister packs, and other peasant forms of grafts will not be restored, however. The removal of grafts was a part of a larger set of changes which have been vetoed - Sorry for the scare.
    Who are you calling a peasant!? Anyway blister packs are cool, they offer some more powerful nanoprograms than were available in graft form and had a short lock time to compensate for being consumable. Also blister packs aren't mentioned as being removed in the patchnotes.

    Anyways. Are you guys going to pick a template for "on use" items and stick to it or what. Stuff like alba rings and damage changers were the first of this new breed of items that required being worn to be used (which everyone hates, btw). Now you are changing flurry of blows to this system as well. Why? Why does flurry need to be worn while a root graft doesn't? Why does Ring of Sister Pestilence need to be worn while Ring of Putrescent Flesh doesn't? I'm pretty sure about 98% of all players would be happier with on-use items not having to be worn. Just make the requirements to use relevant to the effects and be done with it.
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  16. #16
    Thanks Michi for great info. For me, Grafts vere essential part of AO Unique design, and - if handled properly - they can always come handy in PVP situation (or even in PVM too). good they are stay in-game. I was woried by this change. It may not broke the gameplay, but for sure took one of its unique parts.
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Michizure View Post
    Grafts will be restored to loot tables. The nano fingers, blister packs, and other peasant forms of grafts will not be restored, however. The removal of grafts was a part of a larger set of changes which have been vetoed - Sorry for the scare.
    Am curious about the rest of that set that was vetoed.

    And I guess the wolf graft will not be back as that nano is Advy only now?

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Michizure View Post
    Grafts will be restored to loot tables. The nano fingers, blister packs, and other peasant forms of grafts will not be restored, however. The removal of grafts was a part of a larger set of changes which have been vetoed - Sorry for the scare.
    I still suggest you get rid of general nano program ones.

    That is:
    (Ability) Boost
    Proficiency
    Inexperience
    Incompetence
    Expertise

    To offset this you could replace old ones with corresponding composite nanos and keep one copy in drop table. I don't think anyone is against getting rid of these from cluttering already arduous rolling process.
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  19. #19
    so great of Michizure to come in a thread here and there, this is realy posetive. you start to turn me over to be slightly more posetive to funcom.

  20. #20
    ideally add the grafts into start-up vendor

    Quote Originally Posted by Michizure View Post
    Grafts will be restored to loot tables. The nano fingers, blister packs, and other peasant forms of grafts will not be restored, however. The removal of grafts was a part of a larger set of changes which have been vetoed - Sorry for the scare.
    Oh fail, I deleted lots of my grafts.

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