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Thread: An answer to questions poorly asked...

  1. #1

    An answer to questions poorly asked...

    The use of AoE nukes in non-heckler / non-Temple spirits environments

    1. The AoE nuke is an invaluable tool for the NT in the team setting where a tank and healer are able to prevent the NT from being overwhelmed. In this instance, a balanced team can bypass the need for crowd control and accellerate kills of multiple targets.

    2. In events where the targets are not mezzable or resist the mezz of the NT (not uncommon in SL), the NT has the choice of causing no damage at all while repeatedly trying mezz... can nuke a single target or can work on the main target and adds simultaneously.

    3. The AoE nukes are fairly decent damage over time, even when basing the calculation on just single target hits. This is mainly because of their low cast times. Kels is the exception to this and has only ever had a few viable applications - when targetting an enemy with reflects (which makes one single hit vs many smaller ones a better decision) or in PvP where moderate blocks of damage are more likely to prevent reactions in time to recover than short smaller amounts that cause a steady decline. Some kiters prefer Kels because it gives them more time to run between nukes.

    4. Environments where there are lots of socially aggro creatures (Subway, ToTW, and many places in SLs) are natural locations for AoE nukes. After all, if you can't pull just one anyway, why not work on more than one at once?

    5. The AoE nukes, strangely enough, are typically half the nanocost to use as the equivalent QL single target nuke.

    6. AoE nukes (though not Kels until high SLs) are moderate to low attk time and low recharge... by the time most NTs are using the highest level ones (again not counting Kels), they can insta-cast these. And even better, many NTs can insta-cast them at full defense... a setting we don't get to see very often otherwise.


    The flaws with the AoE that outsiders don't see, especially not from Dmg dumps
    1. Single target hit compared to total damage caused. Obviously, the more targets the NT can get into his area of effect, the higher the total damage caused. Where they are problematic is on creatures with high hp totals. It can take a pretty large number of nukes to take down any higher level mobs when you are only doing 649 (adjusted by %nanodamage) per hit. Keep in mind that these nukes are ALL from the original RK toolset and their damage output is based on old RK mob hps. The only counter to this is that because they don't have level limits, lower level characters are using them now than once were able... but as the lines are not extended, they only get so good.

    2. Without the room and range advantage to kite, an NT who uses AoE nukes solo is guaranteed death soon after. With the low single hit damage, only fairly low level mobs can be killed in the 19 seconds of invulnerability that NS2 provides. This is especially problematic in SL where most everything of practical value has a range longer than our cap... this is less critical an issue on RK.

    3. Fighting on the run (ie... AoE kiting) is not entirely a stable option sometimes. Mob pathing sometimes gets crazy and they warp around, preventing any chance of avoiding them. Unless the creature's AR is low enough, this tends to end with a dead NT.

    4. Take a look at the defensive values on the AoE nukes. Most of them are pretty high % NR. What this generally means is that AoE nukes get countered quite a bit unless the NT is much higher level than the target (fortunately this isn't often an issue, since NTs tend to have to fight greens alot).

    5. Mob speed approaching death is an issue many non-NTs are aware of. It's not uncommon to run into an issue of losing a couple of your group if you're using a linear kite instead of a circle kite once they get close to dying. If they manage to get outside the range of the AoE, it can be tricky to get everything killed (not to mention that this leads to scattered corpses).

    6. Adds... even worse, when you're using something wiith an Area of Effect, you don't always have control over what wanders into your area. This is especially tricky in areas where there is a quick spawn rate or lots of wanderers. If something wanders in near the end of one batch, you may end up not looting anything at all because you're too busy continuing to stay alive. Used to be that this sort of thing led to running out of nano and death immediately after... but thats not really an issue anymore.


    Soloing for wealth
    1. Elysium hecklers and their major rewards are one of the main conflict points in the game right now. They are, for some reason, one of the best XP rewards for an incredibly large level range. They are very accessable. They drop one of the highest regular item monetary resource. As a result, everyone wants them. There are only so many of them... and so, conflict.

    Soloing a group of Ely hecklers through the combination of AoE nukes and kiting is possible... however, only in larger numbers does the time vs reward exceed what is possible by a good team. Even many other professions, sufficiently above the heckler's level, can solo kill hecklers at a rate that exceeds that of the lower level teams that commonly run up and down the brink. In fact, some of them can probably outkill an NT who kites more conservative groups of hecklers (4-6). It is only when the NT is pulling larger masses that the AoE nukes gain the potential to cause any concern (after all, 2.5-4k damage every 2 or 3 seconds... what you get using VE vs. 4-6 targets while kiting... isn't particularly inspiring compared to some professions weapon+perk+specials damage).

    Of course, some people are happy to point out that there are 40+ hecklers on the brink and some NTs are happy to rush out and pull them all. And I won't deny that it happens. It is pretty risky, of course. With that many hecklers, it wouldn't take much for things to get ugly fast. Still, its this situation that seems to raise most of the issues with AoE's and kiting.... and thats really a greed factor more than anything. There are several suggestions on the table for solving this problem without nerfing AoE's themselves... and a couple solutions on how an AoE could be revamped to continue to allow the regular uses without the abusive ones.


    Soloing for XP/SK
    While I'll admit the ability to solo really large numbers of creatures at the same time can lend the possibility of really fast leveling rates, the situation is not quite so extreme as it sounds. As with the ingot looting issue, the rates at which the NT can beat out the XP gain of an equivalent level group only really occurs when the NT is kiting particularly large numbers. Because this generally takes a higher level NT (because of the necessary NI, run speed, and so forth OR outside buffs), its not always an accurate comparison.

    Certainly, a level 130 NT is able to kite much larger numbers of hecklers per hour than a team of 100's... and the 175 NT is able to kite even more without as much risk... but in both cases, the solo XP reward does not necessarily compare to what the same level character could earn in another zone fighting as a part of a team (or even solo if the profession is capable). Only in those extreme cases as mentioned before.

    Recent changes to XP/SK distribution across SLs will make this even more difficult for an NT to AoE kite for more than teams can earn (Ely hecklers are worth less... Temple spirits are indoors and unaffected by the change, so Inferno outdoor areas where teams play are rewarded even more while the NT kiting area remained the same).

    Perhaps many aren't aware of it, but NTs are often not solo when AoE kiting in these areas. To really keep the reward vs. time values up, many have a crat for an XP boost or at least someone else who is capable of handling looting and to support in the event of ganking attempts.


    Options that have been presented in one form or another to solve the problem

    Move ingots to other creatures in the zone - lower reward from ingot/raise reward from something dropped by other creatures in the zone: The intent behind this idea is that by separating the XP reward and the monetary reward, we could reduce the amount of conflict and the potential for harassment between those groups and soloists seeking XP and those who are farming the hecklers for their ingots. Downside- if the ingots are just moved, levelers don't get any funding for equipment needs... so the option of making ingots worth much less and increasing the value of other sellable items across the zone makes a bit more sense.

    Rework the layout of the Elysium brink: The argument here is that the long stretches of beach and close clusters of hecklers provide an unprecedented field where kiting is effective. With a different arrangement, kiting effectiveness would be reduced to smaller clusters. Downside - this is a major undertaking for FC.

    Extend the range of heckler attacks: Most hecklers have a 40+ meter range... and anything that can hit the NT further away than the NT can nuke cannot be kited (unfortunately a great deal of SL mobs are in this category, even with our new range debuff nano). Downside - it becomes a lot harder to 'run away' from these guys in the event of a bad pull or the tank biting it.

    Give hecklers a special ranged attack I haven't actually seen this one anywhere, but I thought I'd add it anyway. If hecklers had an occasionally used attack where they could throw a big chunk of rock at someone at a good range, for moderate to low damage, it wouldn't be particularly overpowered in solo one-to-one or group on solo or small group quantities of hecklers. However, it would add up in large numbers for the NT kiting too many of them. This doesn't have quite as significant as a downside as the previous (extending the range of all heckler attackers) as they apply to normal interactions... but makes large numbers less wise.

    Reduce chase factor: I haven't seen this one anywhere either... but seriously, how long are you likely to keep chasing something that keeps hurting you but you can't actually hit back? After a while, I'd personally want to turn and run the other way and find somewhere safe to nurse my wounds. The downside to this is that someone eats those 'fleeing' hecklers and the idea kills the kiting strategy more or less completely and forces everyone to have a tank or can take the beating.

    Reduce the effectiveness of AoE nukes: No NT really wants to hear this because the AoE nuke is really our only remaining unique tool with some effectiveness. Even if we receive some love in the other parts (single target nukes, nukes with procs, layers, blinds, NS, etc), none of that is really unique from what anyone else is capable of doing. However, some of us are willing to acknowledge that if we A) want the ridiculous finger-pointing about kiting abuses to stop, and B) want FC to take our presentation of the profession's problems seriously; we might need to sacrifice something here.


    So how could this work? (Note: these aren't my ideas, I'm just pointing out things that have been brought up one place or another.)

    AoE's made RK only: Suggested and discarded really quickly. AoE's are already reduced in effectiveness in SL between higher mob AC (forcing them to min. dmg.) and higher NR making them miss more often. Also, with added social aggro in SL and less capable mezz, we actually need area attacks more there than in RK. Low amount of work needed by FC though.

    Hecklers made AoE invulnerable: Would solve the AoE kiting abuses but makes small group kiting impossible too. This also makes NT potential team damage lower as well, espcially in a team strong enough to not mind adds. Probably not a significant amount of work needed by FC for this, either.

    AoE damage mechanism reworked: By giving the AoE an absolute damage cap based on small group use and then dividing that amount by the number of targets in range, a soft cap is placed on their effective use. This would mean that a certain AoE nuke would do, 9-10k damage total... so if used on one mob, it would cause 9-10k dmg, on two each would receive between 4.5-5k, on 10 each would take 900-1k... and so forth. This method continues to allow effective use of AoE while removing the effectiveness of abuses (large number kiting). The downside is that it probably will take a larger amount of effort to make it work.

    Add additional taunts to AoE's: While this doesn't really solve the problems Trenchrot pointed to (abrasively), many of the issues arising from NT AoE kiting are caused by the unstable aggro that is part of the AoE process. With more taunting on all targets in range, the NT would be less likely to lose hecklers to passerby (thus preventing accidental deaths).


    A direct response to Trenchrot's summary
    Quote Originally Posted by Trenchrot
    to put it as sucintly as possible, if nts have shade-equivalent dmg, and high end mezzs, blinds, and an improved nullity sphere, then WHY do they need AoE since they will quickly become a impt part of any team? For those of us outside the NT community we ONLY see AoE as useful for leveling outside teams and for farming ingots
    I don't think anyone in the NT community believes we are likely to see even a portion of that and I guarantee if we get improvements at all, it will only be to a small portion of our toolset. There's a world of difference between asking and pointing out where our weaknesses lie... and actually getting everything on your wishlist. Silirrion presented some pretty basic classifications that suggest what the NT balance could be... and we replied with our feelings on the situation we are in and raised concerns about how those classifications have not been followed in other instances.

    I also don't think you speak for the rest of the AO community when you aggressively pursue an issue of demanding the removal of a unique tool from a profession that you are not a part of. Most people see that as poor taste unless you present some pretty good details and logic (and even then you'll get flamed). It is especially not wise when the means that you used in doing so were contrary to forum guidelines. We (the NT community) are generally quite willing to discuss rationally... but much of what you wanted to hear is already in thread after thread about the topic. What you asked was, in itself, not so bad... but the way that you phrased it and more importantly, the fact that we've been attacked on the issue twice a week for over a year now, turned what you thought to be a viable discussion, into nothing more than trolling.


    But, hopefully, this has answered any questions that Trenchrot and anyone else might ever have about NT AoE use and its value as a bargaining chip for profession balance.

    Now... keep it civil, closed threads are no fun!

  2. #2
    Very nice summary.

    A few additions from my side:

    First of all the use of kiting in combination of AoE has basically been used since AO launch, but it was never a matter of great attention (and anger) because the RK outdoor zones are wildly spread and with the alternative to do RK missions, the clustering of the whole playerbase at certain brink spots did not happen.

    This means that currently elysium offers a to big gain (xp and ingots) for a to large playerbase (lvl 100+ can level there, while cash farming basically happens up to 220 if it comes down bad), this results in overpopulation and a lot of anger and griefing.

    Kiting NTs is one part of it, because one single player can be very efficient in taking out a large amount of hecklers, or a large amount of players if things go wrong This leads to the common illusion that player numbers alone are a justification to downgrade a minority for the "bigger picture" and overall happyness.

    But in fact the kiting NTs are just a side effect of the problem already mentioned, poor zone design of elysium.


    This whole nerf crying about AoEs stands in pure contradiction to the alien invasion gameplay, where NTs are very welcome to use this nanoline in a team situation, as a NT in team skillfully using AoE nanos will ensure a steady flow of AXP and reduce the newest implemented leveling grind.

    Jaesic has already presented several alternatives on how to improve the current situation in elysium and I think it's obvious that nerfing the AoE nanoline sounds so easy for all the outsiders, but in fact is a major downgrade for the NT profession we would not be happy to take.
    Former NT Professional and post count farmer.

    Goodbye everyone, it has been a blast.

  3. #3
    Thanks for pointing out the Alien battles, Satenia. I meant to go back and include that (I remembered while working on the solutions list) but then forgot about it again. Probably just as well though, I had to do a little editing to get it under the 15k character limit so I could post it.

    Anything else that is added in discussion during this thread will be included in the summary when I send this thing off to FC as feedback. I'll be putting together a couple more of these things in the next couple weeks on other issues... hoping to give the devs as much player observations and suggestions as possible while they're considering the summaries Silirrion gives them.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaesic
    Extend the range of heckler attacks: Most hecklers have a 40+ meter range... Downside - it becomes a lot harder to 'run away' from these guys in the event of a bad pull or the tank biting it.
    Good post but to be honest I don't really see this as a downside. People running from Ely hecklers causes trains and people to get killed, e.g. Temple of three winds.
    NT Motto: Veni, Vidi, Cucurri.
    Rahmorak, Clan Solitus NT
    How much damage are YOUR nukes doing?

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Rahmorak
    Good post but to be honest I don't really see this as a downside. People running from Ely hecklers causes trains and people to get killed, e.g. Temple of three winds.
    *shrugs* I know. But some people did... which is why I included it. I'm trying to keep this as unbiased and covering all the discussions I could so it isn't just my opinion. I know what I'd do... but I'm not the dev responsible for it.

    Err... not that I'd turn down a job offer...

  6. #6
    Very nice post Jaesic. Thanks for making it.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Rahmorak
    Good post but to be honest I don't really see this as a downside. People running from Ely hecklers causes trains and people to get killed, e.g. Temple of three winds.

    So you're implying that if a bad pull happens, that all involved should just stand there and die. Knowing that I will not be able to outrun the mob, the option most obvious to me is to hand off whatever is chasing me to the nearest team.
    Corinthians - 220 Nano Technician
    Pickygirl - 220 Engineer
    Pink - 220 Fixer
    Israel - 220 Keeper
    Israeli - 220 Shade
    Amenadiel - 165 Soldier
    Maitrize - 173 Martial Artist

    Quote Originally Posted by corinthians
    {Etaks: Do not post this again.}

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by corinthians
    So you're implying that if a bad pull happens, that all involved should just stand there and die.
    Since the introduction of XP/SK pool, there is no reason or excuse not to stand your ground and take the beating.

    Your team messed up the pull, your team faces the consequences - not another.

    Quote Originally Posted by corinthians
    Knowing that I will not be able to outrun the mob, the option most obvious to me is to hand off whatever is chasing me to the nearest team.
    Which will do nothing but to ruin the fun of even more players, create drama and a petition for harassment at best.
    Former NT Professional and post count farmer.

    Goodbye everyone, it has been a blast.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by corinthians
    So you're implying that if a bad pull happens, that all involved should just stand there and die. Knowing that I will not be able to outrun the mob, the option most obvious to me is to hand off whatever is chasing me to the nearest team.
    I always thought 'handing off to the nearest team' was called Griefing. In my opinion, if you mess up you should suffer the result not screw it up for someone else.
    NT Motto: Veni, Vidi, Cucurri.
    Rahmorak, Clan Solitus NT
    How much damage are YOUR nukes doing?

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Satenia
    Since the introduction of XP/SK pool, there is no reason or excuse not to stand your ground and take the beating.

    Your team messed up the pull, your team faces the consequences - not another.

    When even 25% of the ao population takes this to heart, i'll follow suit.


    Quote Originally Posted by Satenia
    Which will do nothing but to ruin the fun of even more players, create drama and a petition for harassment at best.

    Did I miss the blurb on the back of the SL box about free and easy xp guaranteed? If it causes you or anyone else that much strife, there are alternative ways of getting xp.


    40 meters isn't going to stop me from kiting, I have the evades, heal delta, first aid, and full defense insta-casting to make it easy to get around it. It will change how I kite though, I'll kite in a much larger area, with all that it entails.


    I still don't see why just throwing on a CH like taunt for SL mobs onto the AOE's wouldn't solve the problem of teams dieing, if that truly is the issue, and not "zomg how dare you be lvl 140 and make 20mil an hour", which i'm starting to think is what's on peoples minds first and foremost.
    Corinthians - 220 Nano Technician
    Pickygirl - 220 Engineer
    Pink - 220 Fixer
    Israel - 220 Keeper
    Israeli - 220 Shade
    Amenadiel - 165 Soldier
    Maitrize - 173 Martial Artist

    Quote Originally Posted by corinthians
    {Etaks: Do not post this again.}

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Rahmorak
    I always thought 'handing off to the nearest team' was called Griefing. In my opinion, if you mess up you should suffer the result not screw it up for someone else.

    As it stands, I can run out to the water and do some laps while the hecklers reset, if you take that away from the players in Ely, you'd be pretty naive to think even a small percentage won't find any way possible to get those mobs off of them. How about advocating fixing the unstable aggro on hecklers and let the kiting NT who's done 3k+ damage to every mob chasing him keep his aggro unless someone attacks the mobs, isn't that how it works on RK? Kiting hecklers can be made safe for teams without nerfing the ability to do so.
    Corinthians - 220 Nano Technician
    Pickygirl - 220 Engineer
    Pink - 220 Fixer
    Israel - 220 Keeper
    Israeli - 220 Shade
    Amenadiel - 165 Soldier
    Maitrize - 173 Martial Artist

    Quote Originally Posted by corinthians
    {Etaks: Do not post this again.}

  12. #12
    Excellent, ecellent post that answers every single one of the questions non-NTs might have about how NTs use AoE. I really applaud you for taking the time, and this is EXACTLY what I was hoping to have explained -- complete with the best list possible AoE adjustments I have ever read (tho I'm not sure, given all the info you have provided, that any adjustment might even be necessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaesic
    I also don't think you speak for the rest of the AO community when you aggressively pursue an issue of demanding the removal of a unique tool from a profession that you are not a part of. Most people see that as poor taste unless you present some pretty good details and logic (and even then you'll get flamed). It is especially not wise when the means that you used in doing so were contrary to forum guidelines.
    I apologize for spamming your forums but the issue was my being denied the right to ask a question that only sought to have exactly this information and insight explained. According to the forum guidelines, there was no legitimate reason for closing the thread; but the important thing is that this information has now been explained thoroughly, and I thank you for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaesic
    I don't think anyone in the NT community believes we are likely to see even a portion of that and I guarantee if we get improvements at all, it will only be to a small portion of our toolset.
    I really, really hope that this is not the case. We are all hoping to have more NTs be able to proticipate as an integral part of a team -- and from a long thread asking what ppl believe should be the dd order in the game, the near unanimous forum community believes that NTs should be fixed immidiately so that they are one of the top 2 dd. Having the rest of your toolset improved too is also very important imho, and we hope you NTs will soon get get some welcome love. Keep up the good work, we are all rooting for you.

    EDIT: Lol!! I didn't even see the title of the thread for a while. Very funny, a subtle flame. How am I not surprised. At least you answered the question well, regardless of the fact that the only things you guys took offense to were either the question itself or my ignorance of your profession. In the future, please remember that when we ask questions of other professions, it is indeed because we are ignorant about the profession and seek insight. Kudos again on a good explanation, and lol to a funny title
    Last edited by Trenchrot; Dec 20th, 2004 at 16:47:05.
    Fluffer - 220 Keeper

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Trenchrot
    EDIT: Lol!! I didn't even see the title of the thread for a while. Very funny, a subtle flame. How am I not surprised. At least you answered the question well, regardless of the fact that the only things you guys took offense to were either the question itself or my ignorance of your profession. In the future, please remember that when we ask questions of other professions, it is indeed because we are ignorant about the profession and seek insight. Kudos again on a good explanation, and lol to a funny title
    I think your question(s) was valid each time. It is the questions I think should be considered in any profession now and then.

    Remember that AoE is a little sore foot :P Sort of like traders turning their enemys to whitered husks (or something), the masters of aoe wouldn't be so much masters of aoe without aoe.

    Not that NT hasn't changed description before.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Satenia
    Sad to see the excellent thread Jaesic started turn into another kiting whine.
    It happens. A lot, actually... but then thats the price for dealing with controversial topics. And there aren't many more so than this one.

    We (Masta and I) actually discussed closing it and rooting it right after I posted and before anyone added to it, but I prefer to give folks a chance to discuss. A little heat doesn't detract from the value of the information... and gives us a valuable reference for who in the community is for or against the various potential solutions.


    I would appreciate, however, that this debate on the 'ethics' of kiting be ended. Everyone has their opinion on what is 'right' or 'wrong' and its unlikely that anyone who takes the time and effort to post on it is going to change that. That's definately been done... too many times. This is about the mechanics... and solutions that can solve the abuses (however we define those) with the least losses to the way the profession and the game are played.


    I'd also like to say thanks to Trenchrot for apologizing to the NT community. It's appreciated... as are your well wishes for our improvements.


    Corinthians.... If you look at the AoE suggestions, you'll see that a taunt improvement on them IS listed. So instead of the line you are going in... why don't you explain why you feel that the taunt improvement is your prefered solution out of all this?

  15. #15
    Fantastic post Jaesic. This is the best and most complete post on AoE that I have seen in a long time. I know a few people I plan to point to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by corinthians
    When even 25% of the ao population takes this to heart, i'll follow suit.
    /me blinks
    Jhenah
    Shadowthief
    Olexia

    Romitcha (taking a break)
    Shadowpagan (so far, so-lo)

  16. #16

  17. #17
    Removed flames from this thread. Keep it civil in here please.
    -Advisor Elloraena, forums team, Community Relations.

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  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaesic
    Corinthians.... If you look at the AoE suggestions, you'll see that a taunt improvement on them IS listed. So instead of the line you are going in... why don't you explain why you feel that the taunt improvement is your prefered solution out of all this?

    Because it would leave the ability to kite in Elysium as a viable tactic for NT's who want to do so, and also keep trains and disrupted kites to a minimum. Any other suggestion I have seen has either been a outright nerf (removal of ingots), or would cause as much griefing and disruption as there is now (40m range on hecklers).
    Corinthians - 220 Nano Technician
    Pickygirl - 220 Engineer
    Pink - 220 Fixer
    Israel - 220 Keeper
    Israeli - 220 Shade
    Amenadiel - 165 Soldier
    Maitrize - 173 Martial Artist

    Quote Originally Posted by corinthians
    {Etaks: Do not post this again.}

  19. #19
    My suggestion: Either lower heckler exp or raise outdoor rk mob xp. Remove ingots from hecklers and/or put ingots on loot tables for non brink creatues in SL as well.

    It doesn't need to be more difficult than that.

    I will delete my NT and never play one again if they nerf AOE at all and this is coming from a NT that doesn't even kite hecklers. It is merely the principle.

    I do like the idea of dividing the damage from AOEs by the number of targets in the area taking damage. It would work really great if they upped the damage though on our AOEs.

  20. #20
    Hehe i will stop lvling once i get 4 more lvls.. couse im not interrested in getting higher.. couse well.. i dont see any rewards for me there..
    So im gonna enjoy my alts

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