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Thread: The FACTS about weapons and posts about weapons.

  1. #1

    The FACTS about weapons and posts about weapons.

    It seems that regardless of how many weapon threads get stickied, someone always manages to find a loophole they want to ask about. So, instead of me talking about specific weapons, let me give you the facts on weapons in general and what you should be looking for when making your decision. If you keep these things in mind and apply them to whatever weapon you're considering then it should answer all your questions on "how good is such and such?" etc.

    First, let me give you some guidelines for asking about weapons on the forums, this should avoid you getting spammed with "read the stickies" replies.

    1. Read the stickies.

    If you don't understand, I'm worried.

    2. Search

    Of all the forums I think we probably have the most weapon discussion, search old threads because I assure you, however new you think your idea is, we've discussed it before. If we haven't, fair play to you.

    3. Ignore peoples damage numbers;

    A lot of numbers in terms of doc damage are generated more by equipment than weapon. If you see someone saying "I hit for 1500 every shot with weapon x" then chances are if you go ahead and put one on you'll find it's not the same, unless the person in question has posted their setup and you can match it.

    4. Don't ask "How much?";

    Asking "How much damage can I do with x, y and z" is impossible for us to answer for the very reasons stated above, it doesn't take much effort to run your weapon of choice through a damage simulator and add you add-damage kit to the score, that will give you a more accurate insight than asking here.

    5. Don't ask "When can I equip?";

    Look at the skill for the weapon, look at the kit available to you, you can equip a weapon as soon as you can get the right skills. Saying "I'm 5 points short in HW, anyone got any ideas?" is one thing, saying "When will I be able to equip an MBC?" with no support information will only lead to frustration.

    6. Don't ask about waterfall one-handers;

    They're crap, and thus ends the discussion. (Anyone linking to the thread a year ago when I asked about them will be summarily executed by Regi).


    If you follow those simple guidelines then posting on this forum about weapons will be a much more pleasant experience for us all.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Now let me drop in some useful links to resources to check whilst thinking about weapons;

    Doctor Sticky Threads - Self explanatory I hope.
    Auno - Searchable database of weapons/items/armour/etc.
    Auno Damage Emulator - Simple damage emulator best used for single weapons.
    Rayne's MA Calculator - Find out what sort of damage your fists will do.


    If you know of any decent reliable sites that you use for weapon comparison let me know and I'll update.


    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Now, lets move on to simple rules to apply when thinking about a weapon choice, they're not in order of priority by the way.

    1. DoTs;

    In TL7 DoTs are going to make up a significant percentage of your damage, don't ignore them.

    2. Specials;

    Following on from point 1. the only attacks you can make from a weapon whilst casting DoTs are that weapon's specials. Be it Burst, Fling, Fast Attack, Brawl, this is the only damage your weapon will do whilst casting a DoT. Therefore it is strongly argued that a hard hitting, fast recharging special will contribute the largest amount of damage on top of your DoTs.

    3. Specials recharge;

    Different weapons require a different amount of skill in each special for you to cap it's recharge at the lowest possible number. For example, you need 1400 Burst to cap burst recharge at 8 seconds on a Kyr'Ozch machine pistol.

    If you look up a weapon on Auno it will give you the special cycle as a number. For example the MBC is listed as "Burst cycle 1600". Now, to calculate what skill you need to "cap" Burst at it's lowest possible recharge you use a formula. The Formula's for specials are as follows;

    Aimed Shot = (Recharge x 40) - (3 x AS skill/100)
    Brawl = 15s
    Burst = (Recharge x 20) + Burst Delay* - Burst skill/25)
    Dimach = 1800s
    Fast Attack = (Attack x 16) - Fast skill/100
    Fling Shot = (Attack x 16) - Fling skill/100
    Full Auto = (Recharge x 40) + Full Auto Delay** - FA skill/25
    Sneak Attack/Backstab = 40 - Sneak Attack skill/150 (backstab is ~2x faster)

    * Burst Delay = BurstRecharge/100. BurstRecharge can be found with Anarchy Mainframe
    ** Full Auto Delay = FullAutoRechage/100. FullAutoRecharge can also be found with Anarchy Mainframe


    Remember there is a speed cap on specials (i.e 8 sec burst, 6 sec fling) so if the numbers come out lower, they'll stop at the cap.

    Now, using these numbers you'll see on an MBC with 500 Burst skill;

    (1 x 20) + (1600/100) - (500/25) = 20 + 16 - 20 = 16 second recharge.

    Now a Kyr'Ozch SMG type 5 with the same 500 Burst skill;

    (1.2 x 20) + (2500/100) - (500/25) = 24 + 25 - 20 = 29 second recharge.

    So, in conclusion, check how fast YOU personally can get your recharge with the items and equipment available to you and it will give you a nice insight into how much damage that weapon is going to generate.

    5. Minimum damage;

    We all know that on the majority of SL mobs in TL7 you're going to be hitting for minimum damage. The machanics for minimum damage involve your AR, the weapons listed minimum damage and any add-damage items you have. However, if you're looking at which damage is best for you, it's much simpler.

    Look at your weapon of choice in it's correct QL on Auno, the higher the weapons minimum damage, the more you'll hit for when hitting for min.

    Someone with +500 damage items and an MBC may well be able to OD someone else with no add damage items and a Kyr'Ozch SMG type 5, but it's not about what other people can do, it's about what you can do, and as your add damage items will be applied to both, it's a safe bet that you'll do better damage personally with a weapon with a higher minimum damage.

    6. Attack Rating;

    Up to 1000 AR, your AR will add to both your chance to hit, and your damage. However after 1000 AR docs suffer a huge nerf to how much increased AR affects damage. The nerf is 1/6 as far as I'm aware. This means that you'll need 6 AR to produce the results 1 AR would produce pre 1000 skill.

    But what does this mean? Well, after 1000 you'll start to notice that add-damage items are your only way of truly raising your damage. Damage is increased by 100% the weapon's base damage for every 400 AR, with said 1/6 nerf for AR over 1K. So after 1k AR you'll need an additional 2400 AR to increase damage by the same amount as +400 before 1K.

    However, AR does not get nerfed in terms of affecting your chance to hit, and therefore weapon lines which produce a naturally higher AR will provide a better hit chance. Again the only real way to look at AR is to loko at your own kit and abilities as comparing with someone using totally different kit won't give an accurate result.

    7. Energy Damage;

    Of all the damage types, Energy can be buffed higher than any other. All normal damage items include energy (MoR, Dchest, Merc/Commando armour, aruls etc.) but Energy has Electrophiridae gloves available to it, which no other damage type has. At QL300 these add 60 energy damage. They're a drop from Aliumz Generals/Admirals.

    8. Dual Wielding;

    Some weapon choices obviously have the option to dual wield. Be it pistols, Gelids, rapiers etc. Dual wielding weapons with the same base damage will increase your damage output by roughly 33%ish. This is due to the extra attacks per minute generated by the offhand weapon.

    If the offhand weapon isn't the same QL, then it's nice and simple to work out how much extra damage dual wielding will add. With 2 weapons, both at 1/1, each will hit for 20 hits per minute, so:

    Dual Wielding, (asuming Kyr'Ozch Pistol here to ease it up, ql 199 obviously for low MR)

    Single:
    QL 300, 30 hits, 225 min dmg (6750 dmg)

    Duel:
    QL 300, 20 hits, 225 min dmg (4500 dmg)
    QL 199, 20 hits, 151 min dmg (3020 dmg)
    total 7520 dmg


    Gets more effective, the more +dmg gear you use, as it will work on 40 hits instead of 30 hits.

    9. Martial Arts;

    Martial Arts damage can be a mystery to some as it's often hard to figure out what your fists will be hitting for as easily as it is to look up weapons.

    A good starting point is using Rayne's MA Calculator to establish what your MA "fist weapon" is.

    Unlike most endgame weapon options, MA has a much broader damage band, generating lower minimum damage but much higher maximum damage and crits. We already know that TL7 SL mobs are always going to force you down to minumum damage, and this is where an MA setup really suffers, but Aliumz and RK mobs do not force you to minimum damage and as such allow you to benefit from the higher damage ceiling on MA.

    As your MA rating increases directly relative to your MA skill, it suffers in the mid levels where others can twink on a higher weapon, but it picks up again later on as people reach their MBS. There is no MBS on fists.

    Blades of Boltar are an option available in TL7 to MA docs as long as you can twink the reqs. They do not replace MA attacks, but rather generate extra attacks. With firsts alone you will generate 30 hits per minute (at 1/1). With one BoB you will generate 40 hits per minute (20 fists, 20 BoB). With 2 BoBs you will still hit for 40 hits per minute but a larger percentage will be with the BoBs therefore utilising the Energy damage bonuses mentioned above.

    Blades of Boltar are a tradeskill item requiring you to combine a QL250+ Kyr'Ozch rapier type 992 with an Energy Redistribution Unit (drop from Support Admiral in APF sector 35). For more details of BoBs, check the excellent posts in the Doc sticky section.





    Edit:
    AR updated to correct value of 1/6. - Thanks Bubba
    Attack Rating details updated. - Thanks Luuv
    Duel wield details added.
    Further dual wield info added - Thanks Deathstalker
    Added Martial Arts - awaiting feedback
    Added new links.
    Last edited by Siorai; Sep 5th, 2006 at 22:02:37.
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    Grumpy "Siorai" Oldgit - 220.25 Clan Atrox Doctor - Screenshot - Equip (old)

    First trox doc on RK1 using Blades of Boltar.

    My Spirit Shroud Hell - Over 1400 kills with no drop.
    ------------------------------------------------------------

  2. #2
    BUMP .. very nice post Siorai ... only thing im not sure about is after 1000 AR the next 1000 AR damage drops to 1/6th for docs. Maybe they changed it . In any case the only thing high AR really dose is improve hitting for docs. I think this post if very helpfull. I also agree on players posting their damage numbers. Never believe anything untill you see it with your own eyes. I dont know if me liking your post will help your cause hehe. But seems to me you got this down. As for pleasant Weapon Threads ... LOL im not promising anything but ill try to behave. Hell you even got my little min damage trick setup down packed . Add that multiranged weapons hit 33% (<---been awile think thats still it) more then just having one. So when doing math in database players can do math on what they will really be hitting like with two weapons on. If a weapon that hits for 1000 damage min then having two of them is more like have a min damage of 1333 since they hit more often.



    Eunucha
    Inner Circle
    Since 2001

    http://auno.org/ao/equip.php?saveid=42844 <---- Damage WHORE doc
    Last edited by BigBubba; Aug 25th, 2006 at 19:55:04.

  3. #3
    How much damage can I do with a Fantaghiro?



    *hides*

  4. #4
    I think burst is capped 8 seconds + recharge or attack. With the calculations I should have burst every -5 second with mbc, but :

    You hit Suir-Dura for 2628 points of Burst damage.
    Unable to perform action, Burst skill is locked, able in 00:00:09

    Great guide btw

  5. #5
    Nice try Siorai, I hope it works.
    Neophyte "Ruberaa" 5/0 - lolequip

  6. #6
    ...
    Last edited by kemi; Aug 27th, 2006 at 13:55:43.

  7. #7
    Already thought I was the only one who is annoyed by far too many weapon threads... I mean... almost 90% of threads seem to turn out to be weapon threads and often I found comparable or even exactly the same questions in at least one other thread.

    Maybe sticky this thread?

    Anyhow... very good information

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Siorai View Post
    But what does this mean? Well, after 1000 you'll start to notice that add-damage items are your only way of truly raising your damage. If the choice for example is between Merc gloves and Electrophiridae gloves then it comes down to 30AR vs 70 damage. 30 AR will produce approx 5 (30/6) points of additional damage, and therefore obviously the blue gloves win hands down in terms of pure damage.
    While the main thing about this is true (+damage > +AR), the math behind it is flawed. +1 AR is not +1 damage. Not before 1000 AR, and ofc not after it. Damage is increased by 100% the weapon's base damage for every 400 AR, with said 1/6 nerf for AR over 1K. If your weapon shows 100-200 damage and you have 400 AR (or weapon skill, but I think it's AR), then you deal 200-400 damage.

    I just mention it because it seems to be a common misconception that 1 AR = 1 damage.

    Also, you could/should mention that the merc gloves can be better than the electro gloves if they keep your weapon out of OE.
    Luuv lvl220/19/67 NM engie equip
    Spamheal lvl205/23 NM doc equip
    You might not believe it possible, but not all my toons are in my signature! *gasp*
    And yes, I always edit my posts.

  9. #9
    Thanks for the input Luuv, will incoroprate the AR facts in when I'm slightly more awake. I must admit I was unsure of the exact mechanics and despite masses of searching found no definitive answers on the subject so your info is much appreciated.

    As for OE/Non OE. I was trying to keep things simple and straightforward, I'd hope that most people realise keeping a weapon non-oe is the first priority before stacking up on damage items
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    Grumpy "Siorai" Oldgit - 220.25 Clan Atrox Doctor - Screenshot - Equip (old)

    First trox doc on RK1 using Blades of Boltar.

    My Spirit Shroud Hell - Over 1400 kills with no drop.
    ------------------------------------------------------------

  10. #10
    adding to stickies. Great post
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Siorai View Post
    therefore if you have a QL300 main hand and QL199 offhand for example, you may find that the offhand actually lowers your overall damage per minute
    nope, ql300 weapon will alone perform as good as ql300 and ql150.. anything over ql150 will increase slightly your dmg..

    since single wielding weapon hits 30/min and dualing hits 20/min with both weapons, we get 2/3 (66%) effect to both weapons comparing to singlewielding


    (2/3*ql300) + (2/3 * X*ql300) = ql300

    where X will be how much weapon2 can be lower and still producing same dmg
    (2/3*ql300 ) + (2/3 * X*ql300) = ql300
    2/3*ql300 + (1+X) = ql300
    1+X = 3/2
    X = 1/2

    so 1/2 x lower weapon in offhand dosnt affect the dmg (if same, but different ql of weapon without dmg-buffs)

    if you need to calculate level-limits to different speed of weapons or with different +dmg mods, things gets little more complicated but should not be too hard to modify the formula above.
    Last edited by Otinsainpas; Aug 29th, 2006 at 14:47:20. Reason: math added
    You hit Tarasque with nanobots for 18280 points of melee damage.
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  12. #12
    Please do, numbers are always nice to back things up and I'll add it into the post.

    I'm by no means an expert on everything (or anything for that matter) and as I have very very limited experience duel wielding, input from those more knowledgeable is very helpful indeed.

    Would be nice to see the math lower down as well, i.e if you have a QL230 main hand, whats the lowest offhand you can use. I realise thats going to very rarley happen, but it would be nice to include for completeness.
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    Grumpy "Siorai" Oldgit - 220.25 Clan Atrox Doctor - Screenshot - Equip (old)

    First trox doc on RK1 using Blades of Boltar.

    My Spirit Shroud Hell - Over 1400 kills with no drop.
    ------------------------------------------------------------

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Mauurie View Post
    I think burst is capped 8 seconds + recharge or attack.
    Burst: 8s + atk speed

    Dual Wielding, (asuming Kyr'Ozch Pistol here to ease it up, ql 199 obviously for low MR)
    single
    QL 300, 30 hits, 225 min dmg (6750 dmg)
    dual
    QL 300, 20 hits, 225 min dmg (4500 dmg)
    QL 199, 20 hits, 151 min dmg (3020 dmg)
    total 7520 dmg

    Gets more effective, the more +dmg gear you use, as it will work on 40 hits instead of 30 hits.

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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Otinsainpas
    nope, ql300 weapon will alone perform as good as ql300 and ql150.. anything over ql150 will increase slightly your dmg.. i'll show math later, but i'm in hurry now..
    As Deathstalker's post showed, generally, as soon as your Offhand weapon does at least half the damage of your main weapon, you won't loose damage. The ql300/ql150 may be true with AI weapons which have a quite linear damage progression, but you better use a damage calc to check. +damage equip may make even lower QLs worth dualling. For example, with around +250 add damage equipment, even dualling a ql300 and a ql100 pistol can make sense (although you should still go and get a ql199 offhand gun as fast as possible).

    Also, you have to figure in specials. If both guns have the same specials, the one in the right hand is used (most of the time, during reload the other one can get used, I think). So if you dual 2 weapons with identical specials, do not forget to remove both gun's special from damage calc, add the damages together (using the 2/3 + 2/3 like above) and then add the right hand weapon's special on top.

    And all this only works well if both weapons have identical speed, or if you can get both to 1/1 with your inits. Dualling a Flux pistol with a Kyr pistol will slow down your Kyr gun as well - but I have yet to see a usable formula that figures this in. (I thought for a while that Fluxes might make good doc weapons, as we are full agg most of the time, anyway, but the Multi requirements are too high to dual 2 of a decent QL and they really don't work well with AI guns. )
    Last edited by Luuv; Aug 29th, 2006 at 11:57:15.
    Luuv lvl220/19/67 NM engie equip
    Spamheal lvl205/23 NM doc equip
    You might not believe it possible, but not all my toons are in my signature! *gasp*
    And yes, I always edit my posts.

  15. #15
    updated.
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    Grumpy "Siorai" Oldgit - 220.25 Clan Atrox Doctor - Screenshot - Equip (old)

    First trox doc on RK1 using Blades of Boltar.

    My Spirit Shroud Hell - Over 1400 kills with no drop.
    ------------------------------------------------------------

  16. #16
    You've said that ql300 electro gloves are +70 damage, they're actually +60.

    Also, it looks like you lifted the special recharge formulas from this thread, so you should give credit where credit is due.
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  17. #17
    Will amend electro gloves, simple typo

    Actually got the recharges from a totally different thread, it's listed in about 12 seperate places. If I'd known who actually first discovered it, I'd credit it, as it is I'm just re-documenting old information in a more convenient place.
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    Grumpy "Siorai" Oldgit - 220.25 Clan Atrox Doctor - Screenshot - Equip (old)

    First trox doc on RK1 using Blades of Boltar.

    My Spirit Shroud Hell - Over 1400 kills with no drop.
    ------------------------------------------------------------

  18. #18
    Sneak attack is hard capped at 40s, no forumla required.
    You can't spell slaughter without laughter.

    Rookie Gank "Wilsonat" Me 220/22/36 adv GODMODE AND NAKED.

  19. #19
    Sneak Attack/Backstab = 40 - Sneak Attack skill/150 (backstab is ~2x faster)
    Hum, my doc cant BS... Isnt BS only shade and advy ?
    It would be nice that we could
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  20. #20
    Only shades and advies can. Docs can only sneak attack. The attack stuff is completely correct. Just that this little part does not apply to docs. I would still leave it there, as this thread nicely assembles a lot of info about how things in combat work. Just add a comment that docs cant backstab and it's cool.
    Luuv lvl220/19/67 NM engie equip
    Spamheal lvl205/23 NM doc equip
    You might not believe it possible, but not all my toons are in my signature! *gasp*
    And yes, I always edit my posts.

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