The Chicken or the Egg Syndrome ~ PVP Titles, Nerfs, Boosts, Balancing and beyond

[Xaun]

Ok so watching and waiting for the next nerf/love patch, balancing and other juicy bits of code coming our way... I spent a while looking at those that came before I have to stop and ask myself. Is all this "balancing" really necessary? I mean really? Surely some things in PVP needed attention and fixing. Like making some professions more survivable in certain instances, requiring a broader range of present professions to win fights. But lets just stop totally and look at it from the beginning.

What is really wrong with PVP since it began in AO? Is it the balancing of the professions ability to survive and kill or the fact that the only way to earn a title in PVP is for getting kill points on target death due to you scoring the highest DD on them before their ill fated trip to reclaim. Triggering the <No Target> You just earned a new shiny tittle.

I am curious for your input on this as saying "fix pvp" or "fix titles" doesn't help Funcom to do it or give them a proper motivated reason why.

I don't believe titles should be removed. I do think titles should be revised into something more symbolic of peoples accomplishments. I have never once believed that the person I am healing as a healer profession is unappreciative of my healing even if its just hitting them with a perk as a keeper or my passive aura if teamed. Yet I hear people talk about being support professions that do more than just kill/heal but have the dynamics of saving your teams life, increasing their stats, increasing their survivability, hindering your opponent, draining their skills, slowing them down, stopping them from moving, decreasing their attack speed, etc, as being under appreciated in PVP..

Why is that? Is it because they are not doing a good job? Or is it because they don't get the pat on the back from Funcom's system that a killer does. So is it that they don't feel Funcom appreciates them? Because I have never been able to convince myself that I was unappreciated when I run up and save a support professions life by attacking something to draw aggro off them and especially if I end up dying myself from being overwhelmed be it in PVM or PVP to save their life/my teams life. If I ever level a doc to 220, you'll be damn sure people curse at me for saving their target from dying over and over and surviving. I won't care if I am not the best killer.. I will care if I am not the best healer..

What do you think? Which is really the problem? Do all professions really need to be good killers? Or if every type of play style was rewarded equally would the constant cries for professions to be boosted, nerfed and otherwise actually subside to a dull roar or almost gone altogether?

And there are a few people complaining at them at this moment:

Just some threads regarding pvp titles:

Thread 1
Thread 2
Thread 3
Thread 4
Thread 5
Thread 6
Thread 7
Thread 8
Thread 9
Thread 10
Thread 11
Thread 12
Thread 13
Thread 14
Thread 15
Thread 16
Thread 17
Thread 18
Thread 19
Thread 20
Thread 21

Just from the last few weeks, I will just let the threads speak for itself, something has to change!

[Ayria]

Quite the thought provoker.

I for one do not know if Funcom cares for titles as the Battlestation was released as a 'team' based PvP; from that I gather they assumed we would team and actually care what other people on our side were doing.

Support professions and direct damage professions will never see eye to eye; DD will always win through raw power and alphas, support through the aide/ing of others. A doctor along cannot hope to kill soldier; but a doctor healing a soldier can help bring to pass the death of a soldier. Balance, as the current theme is, is not really necessary though new fun stuff to play with is always, fun. In my opinion what is necessary is for people to care about others and actually take the time to wait and team with the damage deprived support professions and work as a team was always intended to to take out targets. Right now, because people don't care, Battlestation is dominated by DD blasting away with massive alphas and support that gets lucky to not be seen, and ranges in between it all. Problem is, we cant make people care, so teams will never form, BS will always be a mad house of individual people running around and so I guess we just have to live with Funcoms attempts to balance.

[Fetid]

You make good points, but what a relatively fair middle ground would be is hard to call. It would seem to me that a simple change that may, or may not work is an assist point system. Something like: if you get the most damage on an opponent, you get what ever points are awarded now, if you do damage to an opponent below the winning number, you get 1 point, or something along those lines.

I also think we should be able to gain and loose points from everyone within our pvp level range instead of the current +/- 100 points setup. A player's current title is not always an indication of skill level of or difficulty.

[Threezey]

what i dont understand is why a freshy wouldn't get points [if not MORE points] from something high, like master... to help the master hold onto his title longer?

[Bornfromhell]

http://upload8.postimage.org/925246/photo_hosting.html

that basically sums it up. It's called imbalance when a keeper can survive a team of enforcers for longer than a minute.

[Ayria]

http://upload8.postimage.org/925246/photo_hosting.html

that basically sums it up. It's called imbalance when a keeper can survive a team of enforcers for longer than a minute.

That's just sad. Good thing I rolled a keeper today.

[Gwenhwyfer]

A keeper does not survive a team of enforcers alone. You know it and I know it so don't bring such riddiculous arguements here. That picture doesn't prove anything as there are so many invisible variables in play (outside buffs like rrfe, deathless blessing, HoTs, absorbs + outside assistance).

[kranden]

The only problem to removing titles is people will team with engineer for spec blockers :d

[Bornfromhell]

sthere are so many invisible variables in play

Oh yeah, sorry, the doc in the photo was healing the enforcers.

[Mekh]

...snip...
Problem is, we cant make people care, so teams will never form, BS will always be a mad house of individual people running around and so I guess we just have to live with Funcoms attempts to balance.

- Make it so stations can't be capped unless your in a team with at least 3-4 members? Maybe even require those 3-4 members to be within range (Not grey in team window)?
- To cap a station 2-3 levers must be activated within a few seconds, requiring coorporation between multiple people. (Something like CoH doors iirc)


With regard to the title system... a few suggestions.
1. Delete the title system... makes no difference to me. (Since it can be farmed, it's worthles imo)
2. Eliminate the possibility to farm damage. Let the one who makes the killing blow/shot/whatever get the title points.
3. Reduce title points earned when not teamed.
4. Give title points to all in team, when someone from teams gets a kill (see 2)
5. 2+3+4
6. I prefer 1.

[Graviuz]

Or make title system based on teams ^^

[Adamentiumm]

http://upload8.postimage.org/925246/photo_hosting.html

that basically sums it up. It's called imbalance when a keeper can survive a team of enforcers for longer than a minute.

No, it's called l2p. What scrubs.

[Gabocus]

The only problem to removing titles is people will team with engineer for spec blockers :d

thats how it should be imo the point is to win bs not to farm titles and spec blockers are <3

what i dont understand is why a freshy wouldn't get points [if not MORE points] from something high, like master... to help the master hold onto his title longer?

yes i agree this is another great idea killing a highly skilled play(as titles are suposed to indicate) should benifit you more then killing someone as equally skilled as you so like if your untitled and kill a master you should get way more points then if you kill some other untitled guy.

[bungerman]

The only problem to removing titles is people will team with engineer for spec blockers :d

we need some reason to be teamed with, might as well be this one...

[Metalynx]

No, it's called l2p. What scrubs.

Learn to Pee? Im not sure entierly how urinating upon him will improve anything..maybe make the armor rusty?

(and do us all a favor man...leave the kiddie WoW slang where it belongs..in WoW.)

Agreed..somethigns not right here. Its not hard to farm a title nowadays..with the...odd ball ssytem they have set up in here. Usually measn not allot it shows someskill to get master..after all you survived allot fo fights that way, but not as much as youd think.

Ive met plenty of experienced titled peoepl ive smoked in 1 on one fights..and I dont use a one hander..or a Hawk. Not to mention...im prolly one of the worst pvpers in this game. Stil..I like to try though.

[charmant]

atm the title system is in a lame situation


i killed ppl with experienced in duels when i had no title...and got no reward
where is the logic to that?

if i kill someone with a high title i expect a reward for my skill right?

FC plz come with a bright ideea, make titles mean something

[Xaun]

Oh yeah and put the top three highest titled people you killed in your title range in your "T" info screen please.. top 5 > top 3 tho

[crattey]

Biggest problem I see currently is with class design. Certain classes clearly weren't designed for PvP, and the majority of the tools that make them work in PvM simply don't do the trick in PvP. Yet FC still releases more PvP content and even complete expansions focused around PvP that people pay for.
I'm paying good money for a game I used to enjoy. I like PvP, I don't care about PvM one bit. Yet my class wasn't designed for PvP and has taken more and more beatings ever sinch the launch of LE.
FC does nothing to fix it, they rather just focus on a faulty PvP system. They don't even bother putting some thought into the designing of our OFAB/LE research to make it useable in PvP; it's all junk, apart from the backitem.

Sil even goes to the point where he calls us 'biased' and claims 'we'll continue to do fine'.

Lame excuses so far given by FC as to why they can't fix crats;

- Our toolset wasn't designed for PvP
- They won't want to make 'game-altering' changes (say HI to reflect/coon nerf, 30% caps, MPs with blockers/AS weapon+buffs, tripple, reflect stealing, AS AS AS AS love, Dshark, evades nerf, need I go on?)
- Take the Bullet is a fix (lol, really)


If FC wants diversity, they should stop making classes unable to have fun in PvP due to non-functional CC tools, lack of alpha and lack of survivabilty.
Being next to useless in PvP and having FC putting zero thought into your tools doesn't really make you feel appreciated.
What I hate most is that we're screwed on perks, screwed on research and screwed on OFAB. OFAB armour/weapons might change, but considering perks haven't changed like, ever, I doubt we'll ever get usefull research.

[Xaun]

Biggest problem I see currently is with class design. Certain classes clearly weren't designed for PvP, and the majority of the tools that make them work in PvM simply don't do the trick in PvP. Yet FC still releases more PvP content and even complete expansions focused around PvP that people pay for.
I'm paying good money for a game I used to enjoy. I like PvP, I don't care about PvM one bit. Yet my class wasn't designed for PvP and has taken more and more beatings ever sinch the launch of LE.
FC does nothing to fix it, they rather just focus on a faulty PvP system. They don't even bother putting some thought into the designing of our OFAB/LE research to make it useable in PvP; it's all junk, apart from the backitem.

Sil even goes to the point where he calls us 'biased' and claims 'we'll continue to do fine'.

Lame excuses so far given by FC as to why they can't fix crats;

- Our toolset wasn't designed for PvP
- They won't want to make 'game-altering' changes (say HI to reflect/coon nerf, 30% caps, MPs with blockers/AS weapon+buffs, tripple, reflect stealing, AS AS AS AS love, Dshark, evades nerf, need I go on?)
- Take the Bullet is a fix (lol, really)


If FC wants diversity, they should stop making classes unable to have fun in PvP due to non-functional CC tools, lack of alpha and lack of survivabilty.
Being next to useless in PvP and having FC putting zero thought into your tools doesn't really make you feel appreciated.
What I hate most is that we're screwed on perks, screwed on research and screwed on OFAB. OFAB armour/weapons might change, but considering perks haven't changed like, ever, I doubt we'll ever get usefull research.

I just have this to say to that.. If your so worthless in PVP why do I hear everyone cursing Crats atm due to their stuns? Oh yeah you just want to be an efficient killer so you can earn a title like that agent you saw alpha someone right? I do believe thats what I said in my post.. Titles need to be fixed then professions won't be "worthless" in pvp.

[crattey]

I could care less about titles. As for stuns, they're completely random and thus, cannot be controled. Thta's not my idea of fun pvp. I want to be able to use timing to kill someone, not have a 9% chance on every AS I stun someone.