PvP Taunting - Maaaaango!

[Xaun]

Here is the gist:

Fix CC - There are many useless skills in PVP that make up a prime portion of characters PVM toolkits.

Player-targeted fear effects have been under development recently for hopefull inclusion in a future update. Unfortunately that surprise has been spoiled by a sneaky code issue creeping into the 17.9 update.

There is future intention for fear mechanics being introduced into pvp...but not until considerable testing and tweaking has taken place. Neither of which has happened.

We will be removing this little glitch at the first available oppourtunity...but a polished version of it will be back in the near future.

...now for the topic at hand taunts working in PvP....... I was at Xaun's house when she posted this thread and it was my idea so I figured I would come here and try to explain the meaning behind it.

First off I will not deny that enforcers have a fairly decent toolset for PvP as is........ they do but, sadly in PvP the meaning behind the profession is lost. In PvP an enforcer is not a tank for anyone but themselves they can't keep anyone in thier team alive with their current toolset. Enforcer are suppose to die first that is the part of the job as a tank. If the situation goes bad the "tank" is suppose to hold aggro so the rest of his team can get away safely. Or in a first encounter situation he is suppose to grab aggro and try to hold it using his toolset so the rest of his team can help in disposing of the target.

Now my idea of how this would work is pretty simple. the duration of a taunt imo should at most be 3sec afterwards you would be free to target whom ever you like and kill such person. The skill should not be spamable it should have about a 30sec lock....... personally I don't think it should be a nano but a clickable item. There should be 2 versions a aoe and single.

should it have a defensive check....... absolutely.
what should the defensive check be......... imo it doesn't matter

Xaun is plainly saying make taunt viable in a pvp situation, really you could tweak it and make it fill the enforcer role as tank easily. Make it a 5 min recharge with everyone in the area attacking the enforcer for a few seconds. IF you could chain the taunt of course it's going to end up like PVM.

It has been a continuous problems for doctors that we attract 99% of the fire when people realize we are present, and the only thing that prevents it are other doctors being present, and perhaps some singular encounters of nemesis profs like soldier and NT/trader.

I don't think it's possible within the current game mechanics, but I've seen one real attempt at making tanks work in PvP also and that's the way Warhammer Online has done it with "grudge".

Read how it works here:
http://warhammeronline.com/armiesofW...ronbreaker.php

/Av'

taunt should not force someone to attack but should switch your fighting target in case you are fighting someone and a taunt hits you. In any case it should switch your nano target to the taunter.

Taunts can be resisted so a nr shade sneaking through a enemy blob finding the doc and alpha him is still possible. Mongo hasn't got 40 meter range, so hasn't single taunts, so it's still possible for an agent to alpha his target from a distance (as long as he didn't go cortez style and do numerous swaps in his alpha, which isn't needed for an agent to be deadly).

Sure in rooms like tara dungeon it would be a very powerful toolset, but only if the group behind the taunt really works together it would really help, and it's still possible for a even group to alpha a 70k hp enf which has docs behind, if they work together(i.e time their alphas).

It would give some more tactics to team and group pvp, cause as it's now nearly no deeper strategie can be applied cause the tanking classes can't be the support for the healing and support classes, cause there is no way to that tanking ability helps the support classes.

In fact it would help to intense the goods of most profs, the stealth classes would be needed to actually find a point from which they could attack the enemys support, the support classes can hide behind the phalanx of tanking profs, and the tanking profs can get the support from the support classes they need to be the tank. Well it would be more a rock-paper-scissor situation, but it would really bring interesting tactics to pvp.

Doctors are best pvp taunt.

Avari's link = best solution.

This is kind of what I was getting at. It might inspire me to roll an enf tower twink if it were implemented.

I already anwsered the second part of your last post previously but I shall do it again

"forcing" an enemy too attack them is part of the enforcers(and pretty much any tanking professions toolset is almost every mmorpg I can think of atm) toolset why should it not be included in PvP in AO? in 1on1 PvP there is absolutely no use for a tool such as this...... your either going to attack the enforcer or your just going to run away.

I shall break AO mass PvP down for you if you like. You have 3? different types of PvPers. Ones is only in it for the kill count/epeen. The ones who like to prove that they are better then someone else(duelers). And those who do it to help thier faction. So this explination will be on the latter for the most part as duelers hate BS or only do it when they want to kill someone and the epeen group go for the easy kills or someone they don't like.

Now when you are in BS(numbers can change stratigies) in a team your first target will alway be 1 of 2 things. The healer or the rooter after that it best to pick off support professions as they are 1: easier to kill or 2: have roots and or heals. Tank professions such as Enforcer, Soldier and to some extent keeper will almost always be your last targets........ why? simple they just take longer to kill. Now there is a million ways this can turn out so don't take this as gods law this is just a basic stratigy that most teams will use most of the time.

last post for the nite so bye bye

Two things:

1. It doesn't matter how an enforcer manages to get the enemy to attack him. The point is the enforcer, not the other players, are being attacked. "BUT IZ NOT ACTUAL TAUNT!!!!11" Who cares?
2. PvP taunts would be new items, not nanos that force either the nano target or all enemy players in the area to target (not attack) the enforcer for ~3 seconds and has a 30 second recharge. Simple, easy, and enfs can still mongo themselves to hell and back with impunity.

can't mongo in a AP..... if that what your trying to say there.... and sadly most people either skimmed or just read the title of the thread. The idea for the taunt is a new clickable tool not the existing nanos used in PvM

lol its alot different the the teams of 2 docs and a solder or any tanking/high HP profession + a doc that we see all the time now in BS lol...... the taunt tool would not be spamable so after 3sec max you and your team would be able to switch tagets back to the docs if thats what you wanna kill.

lol making calms work in PvP is for a different thread..... was only brought up here as a joke.

agent tools if they were added would not work like they do in PvM and tbh with I don't think they need them in PvP

lol it would not over power NT's their target would get changed for 3sec max just like everyone else....... 3sec max.... not sure what people are doing here but please please feel free to read any of my post seeing as I was the person who came up with this Idea.... was at Xaun's house so thats why I wasn't the person who posted it. At the time it was just a idea I had on a whim and have since modified it in this thread all you gotta do is a little reading.

[TheDdevil]

wtb player charm

I want to charm a Xaun <3

[DecemberSky]

I like the idea. I want calm's to work in pvp too!

[Ayria]

Simple answer: No.

Taunt is not so much the overwhelming and undeniable force to attack someone; being taunted by someone is not a "I must attack you because you taunted" it's a way of making yourself the preferred target.

If you taunt and I choose not to attack it means I don't want to, and being forced to attack you simply because you taunt is not acceptable to me.

[Xaun]

wtb player charm

I want to charm a Xaun <3

^_^!!

I like the idea. I want calm's to work in pvp too!

Agreed... All toolsets should behave as they do in PVM in PVP as well.. (with adjusting and tweaking even if it means adding PVP only versions for everything including charms, mes, calms and even revised root system)

Simple answer: No.

Taunt is not so much the overwhelming and undeniable force to attack someone; being taunted by someone is not a "I must attack you because you taunted" it's a way of making yourself the preferred target.

If you taunt and I choose not to attack it means I don't want to, and being forced to attack you simply because you taunt is not acceptable to me.

lol... I am actually glad your disliking this idea it promotes unity in the rest of everyone else who realizes why this is important.

[Ayria]

Oh, so you think my dislike of an idea makes it good huh?

Tell me then, why is this needed? So that an enforcer can run in and mongo people and they are FORCED, against their will, to attack him/her/it instead of whoever they were attacking? What happens if you are one shot from killing someone and suddenly you get taunted away and die because now the guy you were gona kill can kill you? Think you'd be happy with that? Think that's fair? You didn't die and lose that kill because your target was better then you, wasn't because of their gear or level or perks or luck was better, it's because some noob enforcer ran in and mashed his mongo button.

I don't mind dying in PvP. I do however mind dying because of some noob hitting one button with no thought or skill other then the hand eye coordination needed to hit the button.

So tell me, why should I do anything but oppose this idea?

[Xaun]

Oh, so you think my dislike of an idea makes it good huh?

Tell me then, why is this needed? So that an enforcer can run in and mongo people and they are FORCED, against their will, to attack him/her/it instead of whoever they were attacking? What happens if you are one shot from killing someone and suddenly you get taunted away and die because now the guy you were gona kill can kill you? Think you'd be happy with that? Think that's fair? You didn't die and lose that kill because your target was better then you, wasn't because of their gear or level or perks or luck was better, it's because some noob enforcer ran in and mashed his mongo button.

I don't mind dying in PvP. I do however mind dying because of some noob hitting one button with no thought or skill other then the hand eye coordination needed to hit the button.

So tell me, why should I do anything but oppose this idea?

Because you should want unique classes with working game mechanics not easy mode retard PvP.. Winning the Special Olympics is still.. well you get the idea...

[Ayria]

Oh so winning because a naked enforcer taunts isn't easy mode?

[gergiskoo]

Actually it makes for some very interesting strategies in team PvP.

[Xaun]

Oh so winning because a naked enforcer taunts isn't easy mode?

Do you have no ability to see beyond enforcer class? lol.. people have anti-taunting skills.. the point of this thread is CC doesn't work and needs to be fixed and your just the funny agent who loves to troll

Actually it makes for some very interesting strategies in team PvP.

Exactly, that is main point of this all. Right now PvP as a whole lacks the depth of strategy that the class descriptions portrait. It is not impossible to be fixed either. It just takes one or two gutsy Dev's and Sil's blessing...

[Xaun]

Oh, so you think my dislike of an idea makes it good huh?

Tell me then, why is this needed? So that an enforcer can run in and mongo people and they are FORCED, against their will, to attack him/her/it instead of whoever they were attacking? What happens if you are one shot from killing someone and suddenly you get taunted away and die because now the guy you were gona kill can kill you? Think you'd be happy with that? Think that's fair? You didn't die and lose that kill because your target was better then you, wasn't because of their gear or level or perks or luck was better, it's because some noob enforcer ran in and mashed his mongo button.

I don't mind dying in PvP. I do however mind dying because of some noob hitting one button with no thought or skill other then the hand eye coordination needed to hit the button.

So tell me, why should I do anything but oppose this idea?

Oh, so you think my idea is no good huh?

Tell me then, why is this needed? So that an <rooting/snaring class> can run in and <snare/root> me and I am FORCED, against my will, to stop moving instead of rushing over to the person I was attacking? What happens if you are one hit from killing someone and suddenly you get rooted/snared and die because now the guy you were gona kill is to far away and can kill you? Think you'd be happy with that? Think that's fair? You didn't die and lose that kill because your target was better then you, wasn't because of their gear or level or perks or luck was better, it's because some noob root/snarer ran in and mashed his root/snare button.

I don't mind dying in PvP. I do however mind dying because of some noob hitting one button with no thought or skill other then the hand eye coordination needed to hit the button.

So tell me, why should I do anything but support/propose this idea?

[Sterva]

taunts don't work like that in pvm, why should they work that way in pvp?

[Ayria]

Do you have no ability to see beyond enforcer class? lol.. people have anti-taunting skills.. the point of this thread is CC doesn't work and needs to be fixed and your just the funny agent who loves to troll

And you're a keeper who likes to think she's always right. Your point?

Lets talk de-taunts. If I proc/cast de-taunt on you does that mean you can't attack me at all? I mean if taunts force you to attack someone wouldn't de-taunts force you to stop attacking and be unable to attack them again after? Following the idea of CC in PvM, as you are trying to do with taunts, this would be the case with de-taunts.

So beyond enforcers a doc comes in and (I)CH's or an Agent comes and CH's. Everyone is forced to attack them now instead of their current targets? I can agree that would make for some interesting battles, but not ones that I'd want to be part of.

Clan Doc/Enf runs in and casts IMS/ICH and everyone automatically and involuntarily switches to them while the other Clan's cap points and pick off the Omni who can't fight back because they have to waste their shots into someone else.

NT runs into the room and uses Forget Me! and suddenly has -10 000 taunt on everyone in the area preventing him from being attacked while he nukes his ass off laughing all the way.

Introduce calms and suddenly Crats, Traders and NTs can incapacitate you and prevent you from attacking until attacked. Any smart calmer will run in, calm, cap point and leave, laughing as you are stuck in your prison until it times out.

These are the implications of your suggestion. Try looking at them instead of just "Oh it'll make PvP more strategic."

P.S. Nice attempt at twisting my words around, but there is these things called FMs or Spacial Displacement. Root/snare resist that easily counters these things. Not to mention the default NR check that roots and snares have. They are in a totally different league then the concept you are proposing here.

[Sterva]

Ok,

But still. Taunts work one way in PvM and you've yet to suggest a viable way for them to do the same thing in PvP. The way I see it, people are fundamentally different from NPCs. People cannot be forced to attack someone, and any system that makes them do that, especially one that makes them stop attacking one target to attack another is lame and decreases the fun of PvP.

Yes it would be cool if more CC things transferred over to pvp--charms and fears for example, but taunts are one thing that I don't think can transfer over.

The best taunt (one that already exists in pvp, even) is for a player to pose a very real and present threat to everyone. And or for them to annoy the **** out of everyone.

[Xaun]

Lets talk de-taunts. If I proc/cast de-taunt on you does that mean you can't attack me at all? I mean if taunts force you to attack someone wouldn't de-taunts force you to stop attacking and be unable to attack them again after? Following the idea of CC in PvM, as you are trying to do with taunts, this would be the case with de-taunts.

So beyond enforcers a doc comes in and (I)CH's or an Agent comes and CH's. Everyone is forced to attack them now instead of their current targets? I can agree that would make for some interesting battles, but not ones that I'd want to be part of.

Clan Doc/Enf runs in and casts IMS/ICH and everyone automatically and involuntarily switches to them while the other Clan's cap points and pick off the Omni who can't fight back because they have to waste their shots into someone else.

NT runs into the room and uses Forget Me! and suddenly has -10 000 taunt on every in the area preventing him from being attacked while he nukes his ass off laughing all the way.

Introduce calms and suddenly Crats, Traders and NTs can incapacitate you and prevent you from attacking until attacked. Any smart calmer will run in, calm, cap point and leave, laughing as you are stuck in your prison until it times out.

These are the implications of your suggestion. Try looking at them instead of just "Oh it'll make PvP more strategic."

Damn skippy! That sounds fun thanks for the illustration! Just remember everything works two ways.. The fact is right now Enforcers toolset is broken because they don't serve their utility in team PVP. So just like every other class with CC abilities in this game ask for other means of being useful eg.. gimme more dps/self heals plix!!111

And right now only some of the CC works. It is an uneven system and makes things imbalanced.

And sweetie, don't try to play word games with me you will always lose..

PS: Regarding nukes - most have taunts built in I covered that in the suggestion.. all abilities would need to be tweaked for their PvP balance but this is the only real way to fix this game in the long run.

PS: Sterva I meant make them work exactly as they do was just making a post to grab peoples attention. The concept here is simple every CC ability in the games needs to be reviewed. We know it can be fixed and the result will be more dynamic and fun team oriented PvP. Where classes serve a similar purpose as they do in PvM. So don't try to go all silly on me you know I was making a generalization and joke at the same time..

P.S. Nice attempt at twisting my words around, but there is these things called FMs or Spacial Displacement. Root/snare resist that easily counters these things. Not to mention the default NR check that roots and snares have. They are in a totally different league then the concept you are proposing here.

That wasn't a nice attempt... that was a masterful and perfect mirroring of your words exactly as you intended them with all the bias you believe fair in it's utterly terrible imbalanced state.. You would have the same thing. Taunts would have checks just as they do in PVM.. you can't go running around using a lvl 1 taunt tool/nano on a lvl 220 mob and expect it to work.. use your brain ffs..

Ok,

But still. Taunts work one way in PvM and you've yet to suggest a viable way for them to do the same thing in PvP. The way I see it, people are fundamentally different from NPCs. People cannot be forced to attack someone, and any system that makes them do that, especially one that makes them stop attacking one target to attack another is lame and decreases the fun of PvP.

Yes it would be cool if more CC things transferred over to pvp--charms and fears for example, but taunts are one thing that I don't think can transfer over.

The best taunt (one that already exists in pvp, even) is for a player to pose a very real and present threat to everyone. And or for them to annoy the **** out of everyone.

Holy double standard/biased batman!

Oh, so you think my idea is no good huh?

Tell me then, why is this needed? So that an <rooting/snaring class> can run in and <snare/root> me and I am FORCED, against my will, to stop moving instead of rushing over to the person I was attacking? What happens if you are one hit from killing someone and suddenly you get rooted/snared and die because now the guy you were gona kill is to far away and can kill you? Think you'd be happy with that? Think that's fair? You didn't die and lose that kill because your target was better then you, wasn't because of their gear or level or perks or luck was better, it's because some noob root/snarer ran in and mashed his root/snare button.

I don't mind dying in PvP. I do however mind dying because of some noob hitting one button with no thought or skill other then the hand eye coordination needed to hit the button.

So tell me, why should I do anything but support/propose this idea?

[Spart]

So that an <rooting/snaring class> can run in and <snare/root> me and I am FORCED, against my will, to stop moving instead of rushing over to the person I was attacking? What happens if you are one hit from killing someone and suddenly you get rooted/snared and die because now the guy you were gona kill is to far away and can kill you? Think you'd be happy with that? Think that's fair? You didn't die and lose that kill because your target was better then you, wasn't because of their gear or level or perks or luck was better, it's because some noob root/snarer ran in and mashed his root/snare button.

Xaun, you aren't necessarily forced to stop moving, there are more than enough items, as well as melee having SD to perk to help prevent themselves from being rooted.

Of course, I wouldnt mind this, as I'll be able to detaunt people while selecting my targets ^^

[gergiskoo]

What you all seem to fail to understand is that PvP taunts can't and wouldn't be anything like PvM taunts. The game mechanics won't allow it, because players don't have hatelists.

What makes the most sense to me is just one or two AoE or single target taunts that force the target or all enemy targets in a small radius to attack the enf for a few seconds. They won't be nearly as spammable as PvM taunts, they'll be resistable, and they will have nothing to do with taunt values and whatever other mechanics govern PvM taunting. Nanos like nukes with built-in taunts won't have any PvP effect. It will just be those few enf-only nanos. To be honest I don't know if the game engine will allow something like this, either, but this sounds a hell of a lot better than giving players hatelists that force people to attack.

[Ayria]

Damn skippy! That sounds fun thanks for the illustration! Just remember everything works two ways.. The fact is right now Enforcers toolset is broken because they don't serve their utility in team PVP. So just like every other class with CC abilities in this game ask for other means of being useful eg.. gimme more dps/self heals plix!!111

So because they can't force people against their will to attack them they are broken? Because you can't totally and utterly **** someone over or make yourself unattackable with de-taunts CC is broken?

You talk of PvP as easy mode now, but you want it to be that some totally stripped enforcer runs in and uses mongo for 10k taunt and suddenly everyone has to attack him, ya he'll die; but in the mean time his buddies can have their way with the hapless opponents that are unable to defend themselves via retaliation. What a great way to farm kills, have an enfo taunt, doc can heal, and you get to kill all the people stuck hitting the enforcer with no threat to you. If that isn't easy mode, I don't know what is.

The last thing we need is PvP to become a Zods raid.

[Chrys]

I doubt any enf would seriously use this nano if there are more than 4 people around... Most enfs I know try to get leeted. The thought of risking a gazillion ASs/FAs/SAs on himself?

P.S. Challenger is a taunt in PVP ("OoooOOo big clickable thingy!!1" *click* ASFABurstFlingPerkPerkPerk)

[Xaun]

I doubt any enf would seriously use this nano if there are more than 4 people around... Most enfs I know try to get leeted. The thought of risking a gazillion ASs/FAs/SAs on himself?

P.S. Challenger is a taunt in PVP ("OoooOOo big clickable thingy!!1" *click* ASFABurstFlingPerkPerkPerk)

SL Essence would make it more feasible and still only something they would want to do in a proper team situation. You know where skill and dynamics should work together?

Keep in mind most enfs you know are not setup for PVM or tanking.. they are setup for this broken form of PvP where their taunts and tools mean jack squat diddly.. most people who are Enforcer purists that I know "Enjoy tanking" they "want to soak damage and be that big bad ass" that is why they picked the profession to begin with