Don't make situations where one prof has zero defense against another prof

[Chrys]

This is a consolidated op-nano-halp-whine thread.

The overall problem for PVP is that these are areas where a specific toon has zero defense against these kinds of attacks. It's well and good that some profs should be weaker than others, but there should never be a case where a profession is completely, utterly immobilised by a tool of another prof. Of course FC has said that 1-v-1 pvp will never be balanced, but certain areas need to be tweaked so that the "weak" prof at least has a standing chance to come back.

FC is moving in this direction with tweaking stun procs, which fell into this category, and this is a good move, but doesn't go far enough:

GTH = zero defense against this other than NR (and it is a spammable nano). Affects docs, agents, NTs the most (nano-dependent profs), and ofc any casting prof to a lesser extent - the major defense is doing so much damage that you kill the trader in time - well docs and NTs have zero chance of this, i.e. it's FUBAR for them.

CB = zero defense against these other than NR, which er doesn't work. The only defense for most profs against this is to have as much HP and damage as possible to kill the NT before the triples start raining down. It's like a soldier that comes with an assault rifle that instantly poxes your evades

RI v agents = zero defense against this other than NR, totally immobilises their defenses.

NSD proc = lolzwin vs any casting prof. Again, you need to hurt the MP so much that you can survive without your nanos. Only reason people haven't complained more about it is MPs usually go for evade procs, plus their crappy AR means it doesn't proc often. But as a MP, I want better AR (just 2k in full CSS/300symbs is a joke) rather than stupid Iwin junk.

Mongo Rage = lolz-I-can-bypass-any-evades, especially if ima alpha prof. Ok, I can accept this one if they make all the other breeds get better genome perks.

Simply, these areas need balancing so that a player has some chance - either via longer recharge, a way to remove them, a better way to counter or less ability of the casting prof to land them. Something as debilitating as these to various profs should come with significant drawbacks.

Kthx.

[Artyomis]

I do totally agree with you, especially about MR.
Fixers need their evades to be permanently popped to evade MR gank, but even then - fixers can easily die, just takes a lilbit longer (i don't talk about moderate MR PvPers, but I talk about top-twinked AR peeps with MR).
Really, it doesn't matter how well twinked you are, if you got engaged by a person with max AR and MR up - you have tiny chance to survive and HP doesn't matter here.
CB is OP nano aswell, because some profs can evade being tripled/doubled to death w/o CBd at least some time, but after being affected by CB - you better run.
GTH - just another /laff nano. At least make recharge on that nano longer, so traders won't be able to effectively spam it on nearby targets. Or make it's duration less, lets say - 10 seconds. Some peeps with totally maxed nano will have a chance to get some nano left after effect.
And so on...

[sultryvoltron]

Good summary on all the nanos. Agreed.

[Stick]

Mongo Rage = lolz-I-can-bypass-any-evades, especially if ima alpha prof. Ok, I can accept this one if they make all the other breeds get better genome perks.

Simply, these areas need balancing so that a player has some chance - either via longer recharge, a way to remove them, a better way to counter or less ability of the casting prof to land them. Something as debilitating as these to various profs should come with significant drawbacks.

Kthx.

you gotta be kidding with this one. let's see:

the good:

On Use Self Modify Offense modifier 1500

the bad:

Duration 10 seconds

the ugly:

User Lock Atrox Primary Genome 10 150s

On Use User Hit Health Energy -500 .. -500 10 hits, 1s delay
if Health >= 501
Self Modify Run speed -1000
Self Modify Offense modifier -1000

also, since the HP difference at 220 is negligeable between breeds, and troxes have a much harder job equiping endgame symbs, this is a good tradeoff. also, this requires 10 alien perks in a line that is otherwise useless for atroxes.
and before anyone says anything, no i don't have MR perked.

[Koizumi]

GTH = zero defense against this other than NR (and it is a spammable nano). Affects docs, agents, NTs the most (nano-dependent profs), and ofc any casting prof to a lesser extent - the major defense is doing so much damage that you kill the trader in time

With trader's squishness this isnt really a big case to any casting professions that can deal out any decent amount of dd.

- well docs and NTs have zero chance of this, i.e. it's FUBAR for them.

As for nt's, no offence but thats bullsh**...yes, i do agree its a major fsck up but at the same time i know NT's that do manage to kill the trader even after GTH lands.
As for docs, id have to ask Nurseee but i saw him survive GTH and kill a trader in a duel(tho im not sure he can do this on regular basis).

CB = zero defense against these other than NR, which er doesn't work. The only defense for most profs against this is to have as much HP and damage as possible to kill the NT before the triples start raining down. It's like a soldier that comes with an assault rifle that instantly poxes your evades

I agree on this one, 55% defcheck is way too low. Even MA's with uwos up and NR2 have problems resisting this.

Mongo Rage = lolz-I-can-bypass-any-evades, especially if ima alpha prof. Ok, I can accept this one if they make all the other breeds get better genome perks.

Well, i wouldnt totally agree. There are professions that can survive MR, there are professions that dont care about it , and there are professions that arent even affected by it.
The rest is left with the ability to counter MR in various other ways.
The only thing id like to see changed on MR is the drawback after it ends.
It should have a 1.5k snare, -1.5k ar and 1.5k dot on end.

[Graftmage]

trader's squishness

lol'd

[Chrys]

@Stick:

I don't think there's a real definition for what it means to "alpha" something, but in the old days, it was about dishing out damage within a CH recharge, i.e. 8 seconds. So oldschool players who mastered mongo rage in PVP then never had this problem (more with kiting) of alpha timing - plus, whether a perk lands or not is calculated at the time you press it, so your queue of perks all benefit from the MR, even if they land 10-15 seconds later. So I obviously disagree with Stick - the good gankers on RK2 have no problem dishing out an MR-alpha within one stun (often from sneak). This is a ridiculous situation, especially if shades get off/def on their symbs next patch.

500 dot, 1k snare, is laughable for most MR profs anyway (e.g. advs, enfs), -1k AAO is significant unless the opponent is dead (or if you can hit sneak to wait it out)... which tends to be the case As I said though, I can accept it but other genome perks need a boost to be comparable.

With trader's squishness this isnt really a big case to any casting professions that can deal out any decent amount of dd.

lol? Which casting profs do you know can dish out a lot of damage, let alone have the AR to regularly hit traders? Only one I can think of is agents... the rest don't stand a chance (except MPs with NSD proc which I'm also putting down for a nerf, and has nothing to do with MP dd).

As for nt's, no offence but thats bullsh**...yes, i do agree its a major fsck up but at the same time i know NT's that do manage to kill the trader even after GTH lands.
As for docs, id have to ask Nurseee but i saw him survive GTH and kill a trader in a duel(tho im not sure he can do this on regular basis).

lol the trader must have sucked. I'm talking good endgame traders, not 210 trader who just joined BS and got someone to buy him GTH for the first time. Docs have no offense, need to land dots to out-damage the trader's heals. NTs... well they basically have about 2 chances to land a triple (or not, if they go for CB first) and then its over and you can ask them yourself what it's like.

Seriously, you "know" which NTs? Or are we talking about a situation where the NT was part of a bigger blob and had the luxury of not being attacked at the same time?

The only thing id like to see changed on MR is the drawback after it ends.
It should have a 1.5k snare, -1.5k ar and 1.5k dot on end.

That's what this thread is about - tweaks, not total removal/nerfage/blahblah, except I didn't want to make suggestions

[Mekh]

/signed

It's a crappy concept from the ground up...

[Perskules]

you forgot BR

[Jaroba]

I play an agent.. Please dont put RI together with CB, BR and GTH.. Its not thaat bad. (Roots and snares still work for agent and can escape soldier if it aint a duel in an open area). And soldiers should not be something you _want_ to duel

[Chrys]

you forgot BR

I consider BR totally situational - solds attempt to have godmode with AMS - there must be something that can take it out (NTs and traders being the priveleged two profs). And they can't BR you if you don't AMS, which is still decent defence - it's not nearly on the scale as the others, and I say this as someone with a 220 soldier. Maybe the only tweak would be that it also removes your shutdown so you can go to omhh.

[Klodovik]

you gotta be kidding with this one. let's see:

Well, it would be nice if that self-DoT would hit for 500, but isn't it halved to 250?

[Artyomis]

also, since the HP difference at 220 is negligeable between breeds, and troxes have a much harder job equiping endgame symbs, this is a good tradeoff. also, this requires 10 alien perks in a line that is otherwise useless for atroxes.
and before anyone says anything, no i don't have MR perked.

Yeah, perkline, which gives you +1.5k ar perk is totally useless, tahts fr sure.
Wtb the same useless 10-perk perkline as being opifex, really please.

[Klodovik]

Yeah, perkline, which gives you +1.5k ar perk is totally useless, tahts fr sure.

They forgot about damage perk with 10% chance to stun, that goes with this perkline as well.

[Xaun]

Chrys you pointed out Mongo Rage.. but seriously.. The problem with AO presently more than anything else that I can see is simply "perks". The breed locks and profession locked items especially. The only true solution in my opinion is a total reworking of the perk system top to bottom. Anything that has a "clickable special" in it is a problem specifically amongst the perks themselves.

The reasons for this:

Weapon Limitations. You must align your weapon type/dmg type with your perks or forget it.
Offensive Buffs. Some get it some don't most often it turns out backward as to who gets what.
Defensive Buffs. Same as offensive.

These perks pigeon hole characters and I see no easy way out. But I believe the perk system as a whole is the current bane of AO. All else is a symptom of it. Think of AO without active-perks. (mind you some things would need to be adjusted in the current game to match this)

[Flyingengi]

bump...nerf them!

I was just looking around at my research the other day and actually for the first time noticed the NSD proc. Like Chrys said, i'll be running evade procs in BS...but if I ever have to dual a trader, nt, or doc i'm 100% sure that's going to be running and it truely is pretty OP. Maybe -500 nano skills wouldn't make it so OP and people would still have something to cast.

[Doctorhyde]

bump ... the I Win button belongs on the ground where all can push it.

[Mekh]

bump ... the I Win button belongs on the ground where all can push it.

/signed

[Pafpuf]

You forgot aimed shot, since chances of dodging it are literally zero defense (okay sneak attack falls in the same category but the recharge is acceptable).

[Hound]

You forgot aimed shot, since chances of dodging it are literally zero defense (okay sneak attack falls in the same category but the recharge is acceptable).

This is a consolidated op-nano-halp-whine thread.

Kthx.

I mean, seriously. You could atleast read the headline.