Looking to buy or sell a city

[moroaica]

keep in mind that the recent post by the game director may have an effet on cities value. Proceed with caution and think it over is my recomendation. There may be a new supply of cities and no one can be sure how this will impact the current values. Maybe prices go up, maybe they go down, that is for you to determine--I just want you to be fully informed.

...
IInstanced Cities:

Macrosun has taken it upon himself to create the instanced cities that have been long requested by the player base. This will be difficult...but he feels he is making good progress. The instanced nature of these playfields will make it impossible to have player owned shops...but the city bonuses and alien attacks should now be available to everyone. This is a long way from completion but at least work has begun on this issue that has been with us for a long time. "Normal" cities will still retain value due to their size and their player shops...but more AI content will now be available to all. I'm hoping we can also grant fr00b access to the org HQ's at the same time....


Cheers,

Colin "Means" Cragg

from this thread http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...87#post5412887

hope that helps keep everyone informed so we can all enjoy a fair market value.

[MachSchau]

Nothing is certain and changes liek this wont be ready for a loooooooooooonnnnnnnnnnnnnnngggggggggggggggggggggg g tiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiimmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmeeeeeeeeeeeeee eeeeeee.

[moroaica]

Nothing is certain and changes liek this wont be ready for a loooooooooooonnnnnnnnnnnnnnngggggggggggggggggggggg g tiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiimmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmeeeeeeeeeeeeee eeeeeee.

very true. hence, I took a very neutral stance and am simply trying keep both buyers and sellers well informed. No one one knows if prices will rise or fall, or not move. However, everyone does know it is good for the community to be well informed when we are dealing with transactions that are of this size. I am sure no one would want a person to use his or her (or org's) hard earned credits that may have taken years to accomplish, nor would someone want to lose a city they hold dear, without the parties in question being fully informed regarding these potential changes.


this is very important relavant information to this trade sub-forum. If not stickied, at least the community should help one another and keep the info near the top. We all play to have fun, and no one would find it fun to trade (buyer or seller) a city without knowing this information.

[Creacal]

Moved thread to Cities and Aliens.

[moroaica]

Moved thread to Cities and Aliens.

sadly, many will not see it here. Would have been nice for those that are looking to buy or sell a city in the trade forums to have this right up top so they don't make a choice without at least knwoing there is such a discussion. they may they didn't get all the information. Is that thier problem?--maybe. But if you care about the community as a whole, then you understand not everyone reads every sub-section. Those who are excited to finally find a city for sale, or those that are eager to sell thier's, may rush into it thinking nothing will ever change in AO. It is simply not right for us to do less than our absolute best to help keep everyone informed when we are talking about such big transactions. If someone losses ~5 billion credits or a city (things that took a group years to accomplish in game) and regrets it because they did not see this information, then the community as a whole suffers because we may lose those players.

[Damon7]

sadly, many will not see it here. Would have been nice for those that are looking to buy or sell a city in the trade forums to have this right up top so they don't make a choice without at least knwoing there is such a discussion. they may they didn't get all the information. Is that thier problem?--maybe. But if you care about the community as a whole, then you understand not everyone reads every sub-section. Those who are excited to finally find a city for sale, or those that are eager to sell thier's, may rush into it thinking nothing will ever change in AO. It is simply not right for us to do less than our absolute best to help keep everyone informed when we are talking about such big transactions. If someone losses ~5 billion credits or a city (things that took a group years to accomplish in game) and regrets it because they did not see this information, then the community as a whole suffers because we may lose those players.

It's not my job to keep others infomed. It is THEIR job to be a smart buyer or seller. That's one reason why i like this game. Those that are stupid and / or lazy i can make money from. There is no law that says i have to disclose anything. If they aren't up to speed, that's their problem. Information is power. The person only "looses" 5B in your description when they find out new information AFTER the sale. Before the sale, they were content with the price they paid. Only on hindsight did the situation change.

Your comment that "It is simply not right for us to do less than our absolute best to help keep everyone informed when we are talking about such big transactions." is just your opinion and smacks of more nanny state socialism.

[rustinel]

If someone is planning to spend 7-8 bill on a city and doesn't look in a forum called Cities and Aliens they quite honestly deserve whatever happens to them.

In any case, despite the current debates about the info we have now people seem to be ignoring two lines:


"IInstanced Cities:

Macrosun has taken it upon himself to create the instanced cities that have been long requested by the player base. This will be difficult...but he feels he is making good progress. The instanced nature of these playfields will make it impossible to have player owned shops...but the city bonuses and alien attacks should now be available to everyone. This is a long way from completion but at least work has begun on this issue that has been with us for a long time. "Normal" cities will still retain value due to their size and their player shops...but more AI content will now be available to all. I'm hoping we can also grant fr00b access to the org HQ's at the same time....


Cheers,

Colin "Means" Cragg"


There will not be any flood of 'real' cities on the market for a long time to come. 'A long way from completion' is a damn long time in this game....new engine anyone?

I personally think 'real' cities will not lose much value whatsoever. Individuals with more than a few cities may offload some if the instanced ones are cheap to maintain, simply to reduce overheads.
The original cites of Ka will always remain a status symbol to some and there is no price you can put on someone's self esteem.

'Oh but they might want to liquidate to buy phats'...anyone with the werewithall to make the creds for a city doesn't have any cash flow problems.

And for the record I think these instanced ones are a fantastic idea. We won't be selling our real one though.

[moroaica]

Well I know you two know what is ethical and kind. It is up to you do be kind or have the "it not my problem they don't look" attitude.

The issue extends beyond what is legal, or in a eula, or what you feel you have to do because of rules. Instead, it is a matter of human decency and ethics to care for those who may not have cared for themselves. You can try to comfort your self and trick your own mind into thinking you have to obligation; however, even the most ruthless will still have a feeling they are trying to take advantage of someone else’s ignorance—and we all know we would not like the same done to us.

It is illogical as a human to simply think if someone else does not know something they should suffer negative consequences. Also, what good do you bring to the game, the community, or the world behaving like that? You would take time to post in a negative way but can not find time to post to help keep others well informed. I feel bad for you and although you will deny it, you know deep down that you are in the wrong. Ironically, when the shoe is on the other foot and you are upset one day for not being completely informed about some topic, just remember your belief that no other human should have tried to help because you could have stumbled upon the same information someone in the know had found.

[rustinel]

Well I know you two know what is ethical and kind. It is up to you do be kind or have the "it not my problem they don't look" attitude.

The issue extends beyond what is legal, or in a eula, or what you feel you have to do because of rules. Instead, it is a matter of human decency and ethics to care for those who may not have cared for themselves. You can try to comfort your self and trick your own mind into thinking you have to obligation; however, even the most ruthless will still have a feeling they are trying to take advantage of someone else’s ignorance—and we all know we would not like the same done to us.

It is illogical as a human to simply think if someone else does not know something they should suffer negative consequences. Also, what good do you bring to the game, the community, or the world behaving like that? You would take time to post in a negative way but can not find time to post to help keep others well informed. I feel bad for you and although you will deny it, you know deep down that you are in the wrong. Ironically, when the shoe is on the other foot and you are upset one day for not being completely informed about some topic, just remember your belief that no other human should have tried to help because you could have stumbled upon the same information someone in the know had found.

On the contrary I spend lots of time in game and on the forums helping others(to the best of my ability). I help those who can use the input and make something of it.

To the vast majority in game 7-8 billion creds is a ****load of money. I bought a city when they were a mere 1.5 billion. I still went and did my research. Hell wether in real life or in game, if you are gonna spend more money than you ever seen before you are just asking for trouble if you don't do your research.

I was stating my opinion, I find it as distasteful to 'nanny' someone as I would find it distasteful to be 'nannied' myself. I have sold mega valuable stuff to shop terminals, I make mistakes all the time. If I lose creds or equip then I learn something.

Helping someone != leading them by the hand.

Your original post actually assumes these city buyers are morons. I am sure any prospective buyers out there will chuckle as they read this thread.

[moroaica]

...
I am sure any prospective buyers out there will chuckle as they read this thread.

for me that would be good. It would put a smile I on me to know someone chuckled at already being informed because that means they are informed. The only thing I care about is as many people being well informed as possible. Prices may go up, or may go down; I just want them to go where it is fair based on people being fully informed. It in no way hurts anyone for a few of us more dilligent people to help hold others' hand if it means they learn and better enjoy thier recreation time spent in AO, thats all

[rustinel]

You seem to be a very nice person. Surely though your efforts/intentions would be better directed to new players and the like rather than folk with 7 or 8 billion knocking around?

What makes you think you are more diligent btw? Sticking a thread up warning all those naive billionaires is hardly hard graft. Or have you helped someone make 8 bill and now have cold feet about spending it on a city? Trust me, spend it. Or wait a year and then get a city for 6 bill maybe. Could make back the 2 bill in weeks anyway.

Real cities are finite, the new proposals(which is all they are right now) are infinite...anyone can get one. All orgs on Ka will still want a real city. A city in this game is the ultimate status symbol, better than armour, weapons, titles and tower fields. All the orgs who have wanted the benefits of a city will get something almost as good, that is great news.

They'll still want a 'real' city. Sure they will get an instanced one in the meantime. But what is the value of something with limitless supply? Zero. Buying a city is just an extension of getting uber rare armour or weapons. Hell, the best armour in game is getting made every day, cities aren't. And with the introduction of instanced cities you can be sure FC will never ever add any more 'physical' cities to Rubi-Ka. In fact its more likely the 'real' cities will simply continue to increase in value along with the available credits in game. The only thing which will ever change that is an enforced deflation.

In any case seems a bizarre first choice as a crusade.

[moroaica]

...
What makes you think you are more diligent btw?....

I don't think I am. I am refering to that in case some people think others don't do enough research. You will see people say "they should have looked into it if they spending this much money."

this is far from a first choice crusade. I have spent the past 5 years working to counter those with ill-will in our community. My main account is in a very large and old omni org that has a very nice city. We just want to make sure everyone has a fair deal. I am not so worried about helping people that may have found ways to have billions. My concern is those legit players who pool thier money togther. They are not niave billionaires. They are simply groups of people that pitch in togther and may not have read every part of the forums.

...They'll still want a 'real' city. Sure they will get an instanced one in the meantime. But what is the value of something with limitless supply? Zero. Buying a city is just an extension of getting uber rare armour or weapons. Hell, the best armour in game is getting made every day, cities aren't. And with the introduction of instanced cities you can be sure FC will never ever add any more 'physical' cities to Rubi-Ka. In fact its more likely the 'real' cities will simply continue to increase in value along with the available credits in game. The only thing which will ever change that is an enforced deflation.

In any case seems a bizarre first choice as a crusade.

What does spreading information have to do with "real" cities?
How does helping others have full information regarding possible changes to the game hurt anything in any way?
I made no prediction regarding the direction prices may or may not take after the changes, if any, get implemented. So none of this above is relavent to me.

Although this is not the first nor last time I will try to keep people on a fair playing field... if it were, does it matter? Should someone trying to do good not do so because he or she has to make a "first crusade" before a second?


Bottom line: My goals are simple and honorable--keep people informed so they may make choices while having as much information as any other may have. My intention is to limit, even if it is just one case, the transactions made by people that may not have been aware of possible changes that could affect value. Only good can come from spreading the truth and helping people be informed.

What motivates you guys to not understand that, or even be slightly opposed to helping make sure everyone is informed so they make choices based on all the current information available?


Since I know not many read this section I now send tells to people I see post regarding buying/selling cities to make sure they see the link(s). Thus far everyone has been very kind and some even express appreciation for me taking the time to help them become better informed I know in at least two cases I have made a positive difference and that keeps me motivated.


edit to add:
I am not in disagreement with any of your economic predictions or assements regarding cities and the value they hold. My point is to spread information and truth. If what you say is true, and the logic seems sound, then an informed person may come to the same conclusions. So it is still a mystery to me as to why any ethical person would find it a problem to get others informed. Being exposed to more information, when it is true, can not do any harm. In fact, it should ensure that economic priciples and logical conclusion are realised as the uncertain future becomes the past.

The only people that would have a problem with others recieving information reagrding the influx of a possible new supply of something being bought or sold, are those who want to take advantage of the one who has not yet become informed--there is no other logical reason to be opposed to sharing information with our community (this holds true in real life not just a game). No one has an advantage nor disadvantage if all parties have been informed of the potential changes.

[moroaica]

It's not my job to keep others infomed. It is THEIR job to be a smart buyer or seller. That's one reason why i like this game. Those that are stupid and / or lazy i can make money from. There is no law that says i have to disclose anything. If they aren't up to speed, that's their problem....

I find it unlikely that anyone in practice is truly as harsh as you try to sound in the written words. If for no other reason, it is simply hard to make your way in social environments if you really behave that way. Given that you play a rather advanced game, live in the modern world, and are educated enough to read, my bet is that you contradicted your own stated philosophy many times both in game and in life (I am perfectly sure that you have at least benefited from being the recipient of help and teaching from those that did not subscribe to your system--ironic, or sad? It can be debated). I will leave religion out of this because those are the rules on these boards and everyone is already well aware of the moral lessons the worlds most common religions all share. Instead, let direct attention to a great moral philosopher.

Here is a quote from Immanuel Kant:
"Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law."--Kant

He has written some of the most profound texts about ethics. In a way his ideas seem similar to the "golden rule."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categor...te-Ellington-0
You may find this link interesting. It explains the concepts of a categorical imperative. Finally, I would like you to remember that humans are a social animal. We work in groups. You have not gone this far in a game or life without help from others. If everyone held your belief system (I don’t really think you completely believe or agree with what you posted) the world would be a dark sad place.

So you see,
I believe it to be a moral obligation to share knowledge that another may benefit from learning, when all else is seemingly equal. I can debate that this holds to a universal standard. However, I do not believe anyone of sound mind and good intention can make a universal case for withholding information (actively or passively) from one or more of the parties involved in a trade.

I am more than happy to discus any of this in greater detail. I truly loved the study of ethics back when I prepared for law school. Unfortunately, in the real word there are not many scenarios where one may apply those studies in a pragmatic way. So please, do not misunderstand me. I am in no way offended or unhappy if anyone disagrees. In fact, I encourage and really enjoy such discussions. Because “the unexamined life is not worth living,”[Socrates] helping people become more informed through debate and discusions is a good thing

[Damon7]

I find it unlikely that anyone in practice is truly as harsh as you try to sound in the written words. If for no other reason, it is simply hard to make your way in social environments if you really behave that way. Given that you play a rather advanced game, live in the modern world, and are educated enough to read, my bet is that you contradicted your own stated philosophy many times both in game and in life (I am perfectly sure that you have at least benefited from being the recipient of help and teaching from those that did not subscribe to your system--ironic, or sad? It can be debated). I will leave religion out of this because those are the rules on these boards and everyone is already well aware of the moral lessons the worlds most common religions all share. Instead, let direct attention to a great moral philosopher.

Here is a quote from Immanuel Kant:
"Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law."--Kant

He has written some of the most profound texts about ethics. In a way his ideas seem similar to the "golden rule."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categor...te-Ellington-0
You may find this link interesting. It explains the concepts of a categorical imperative. Finally, I would like you to remember that humans are a social animal. We work in groups. You have not gone this far in a game or life without help from others. If everyone held your belief system (I don’t really think you completely believe or agree with what you posted) the world would be a dark sad place.

So you see,
I believe it to be a moral obligation to share knowledge that another may benefit from learning, when all else is seemingly equal. I can debate that this holds to a universal standard. However, I do not believe anyone of sound mind and good intention can make a universal case for withholding information (actively or passively) from one or more of the parties involved in a trade.

I am more than happy to discus any of this in greater detail. I truly loved the study of ethics back when I prepared for law school. Unfortunately, in the real word there are not many scenarios where one may apply those studies in a pragmatic way. So please, do not misunderstand me. I am in no way offended or unhappy if anyone disagrees. In fact, I encourage and really enjoy such discussions. Because “the unexamined life is not worth living,”[Socrates] helping people become more informed through debate and discusions is a good thing

Allow me to clarify....information is power and the timing of information key. I feel no obligation to anyone in general to keep them appraised of devlopments in any situation. I have enought to do in game and irl not to worry about others. If someone asks for my advice, i will tell them what i think. If i know someone who's interested in buying a city, and i knew that, i most likely will advise them of the relevant info because they would now "owe" me a favor, but i sure as hell won't tell a bunch of random folks in game about it. Anyone with a paid sub has access to that information. Should they choose not to avail themselves of that resource, it is their own fault. I mind my own business and expect others to do so as well. I function in that wonderfull orgainzation called the market and i operate under my own self interest...whether that interest is to help others or myself...it's all in MY interest to do so. We are in an org in which we all benefit. Outside of the game:

"If for no other reason, it is simply hard to make your way in social environments if you really behave that way." Who said i'm social? In general i find humanity to be brutish, stupid, with a herd mentality, willing to follow the basest instincts of their nature. The are dangerous in large groups, skittish, and cruel. I'd much rather be alone or with only a few very close friends than with any large group. (by large i mean 5+)

"If everyone held your belief system (I don’t really think you completely believe or agree with what you posted) the world would be a dark sad place." The world IS a sad dark place. Do i need to list the buchery of the human animal? My belief system reflects what iv'e seen of the word and the history i've read.

It's not cruelty, it's not hatred, etc. I just have no interest or care enough to give a damn, unless i get something out of it myself. Horray for the market

[moroaica]

Allow me to clarify....information is power and the timing of information key. I feel no obligation to anyone in general to keep them appraised of devlopments in any situation. I have enought to do in game and irl not to worry about others....

thank you for taking the time to reply.

Alow me to also clearify. I never told any of you you "have to go around and spread this info." I made a post to help others. Then you guys take time out of your so busy day to try to find reason I shouldn't make that post? Wht take energy to be negative?

Finally, to each his or her own. But how or why does my post create anything other than a positive effect? What harm can it be for just me (you don't have to do what I do) to tell people the turth reagrding a possible change they may be interested in?

...I mind my own business and expect others to do so as well. I function in that wonderfull orgainzation called the market and i operate under my own self interest...

If you mind your own business. what did me helping inform others have to do with you?
If you operate under your own self interest...what self interest are you serving when you took time out of your busy day to post here in the neutral topic I started? I just don't see how it serves you at all. It contradicts your statements about your own style.

It comes down to three possible motives (you either agree, disagree, or don't care):
*Would you like to influence me (or others) to spread the information? if so why do you post as if you opposed it?

*Do you not care either way if we spread this information? if so, why did you take the time to read and post here?

*Do you wish to have me NOT tell others about information they may find useful? if so, why? do you wish to take advantage or thier ignorance?

Horray for the market

I also cheer a free market. Suply meets demand and a true trading vlaue is established. However, I believe it works best if all parties involoved are informed of possible issues that may effect value. What harm is there is all parties being informed? or in me taking time to do what I enjoy--informing all parties? The market is not hurt in anyway. We all know of these "facts" so why shouldn't everyone in the market know? Maybe you don't want to tell them and you have the soverignty to do as you wish. But why does it mnatter to anyone if I tell them the truth?

The truth shall set us free
even in a free market society

[Megasis]

There are serveral plots out there (I know because I once owned a few) That can not hold player shops as there is not enough room after planting the HQ. They now rott once instanced cities come about and those who have put out 3-4b for them now lose.

So dont tell me for a second that City plots will not lose there value.

There has to be some sort of insentive of a city plot over an instanced one. Shops is defenitly not one them in this case.

[drgrimmy]

kinda intresting,i don't see it effecting price's too much for citys(maybe for bots)...shop space is still the real money maker..and any org thast want to keep a good membership and a good funding supply needs a shop...city w/ shop>city w/o shop...more profit potential

[kehaan]

Hello.

Why not just make a new RK field with more city slots?

From Kehaan.

[Quilluck]

Hello.

Why not just make a new RK field with more city slots?

From Kehaan.

Because that would simply mean first-come first-served and we would be back at square one. Perhaps a few orgs would get lucky and get a city, but the majority would be taken by farmers or those that wish to sell the cities for a nice 4bill minimum profit

[Artyomis]

There are 2 types of orgs who wanna have a city.
1st type - an org with bunch of newbies, who started playing this game like a month ago or two. Their level is still low, overall game knowledge is almost zero. They cannot farm 4b+ to buy a city, as a result, - they don't have one.
Let's pretend they'll buy one. What will they do with it? They don't even know what city is used for, what it gives, what can you loot during AI raid.
City can be used to obtain 2 types of loot - endgame items due to their ql (either high ql scope, or high ql leadbots to make ql300 armor, or any other high ql loot), or low ql loot, which is 99% used for TWINKS.
Makin an armor piece which will be outlevelled by its own owner in like a week is just stupid, because of low droprate, and to get a set of armor you need to get REQUIRED leadbots to drop 14 times. Plus, you and only you have to loot them.

Such group of people, if whining about the cities, should at least answer a simple question - what do they want their own city sooo bad for!
Threads, made by some tl6 hecknoobs bout impossibility to buy a city are just pathetic.

For example, I knew at least 5 orgs, which bought different size cities from me personally, and payed 4-5b for one. They gathered those creds in less than a week everytime we've used to make a deal. They've used their cities for the most important purposes. Orgs grown up overall, their average level increased, setups got perfected. Those orgs knew what to do with their cities, what they want one for and so on.
Believe me, some pretty big org's members still don't know how many nanoskills do Notum Silo ql300 gives. How can such person talk about city benefits or lacking those?

Imo, if org really deserves a city - it can easily gather 4-5b creds IN NO TIME, patch number and overall market prices don't even matter here.

And please, stop talking about how bad are people who own multiple cities.
They managed to get themselves multiple alone, which is hardcore work and tons of time spent, why orgs as a whole cant even get single one!!!
Funny, really.