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Thread: Focus on fun, not rewards

  1. #1

    Focus on fun, not rewards

    FC has been too focused on reward and not enough on fun for some time now. Yes a reward is always nice but if you don't enjoy the process it becomes just an annoying grind to get out of the way. BSs are the perfect example of this. Pretty much right from the launch of LE people have suggested changes like more layouts, alternate win goals, semi-randomly generated teams rather than side vs side, allowing it to run with less people if not enough are signed up and so forth. Yet all they have really changed since launch has been the VP reward. First a big jump about a month after launch, another bump for most a few months later, recently they added those VP birthday gifts then now we learn they will later be permanent and they plan to tinker with win/lose BS VP some more again.

    The only other real changes have been to apply some penalties for leaving (honour points and the disgrace nano), getting kicked out if you go AFK and to change PvP title mechanics so title huggers don't need to hug their title. But what about every other suggested change that keeps coming up again and again that is related to enhancing the fun of those that want to be there? Those get left alone as they keep increasing the reward to try enticing the unwilling to join BSs which they don't enjoy. That although also results in the willing enjoying BSs less as the unwilling tend to make poor opponents. Having strong thinking opponents is suppose to be why people like PvP. Fighting weak unwilling opponents don't provide that. So by focusing on the reward as they have causes everyone's fun to be reduced.


    Some balance changes have helped or will help with making the process or game experience more entertaining (such as crat stun procs becoming root procs). Other things to change would be as follows.
    1. Change BSs to add more layouts, alternate win goals, semi-randomly generated teams rather than side vs side, allowing it to run with less people if not enough are signed up and so forth. A bigger VP reward doesn't make BSs something people want to do. Making it more entertaining for those into PvP would.
    2. Change the Scheol to Pen quest lines so a 220 escort is no longer required or it isn't just a marathon. This particularly applies to the Scheol and Ado quest lines. You also can't really expect to get much more than one or two others looking to do these anymore. Then it's more fun and satisfying if you can do something without a 220 babysitting you plus getting to the NPC shouldn't be more hassle than the task it gives you.
    3. Change older high lvl mobs so they're more than just a large health pool. LotX PF mobs have less health than other higher lvl mobs but more tricks which make them more interesting to fight as they're more of a threat.
    4. Rework LE missions. The mobs aren't bad but the halls of these "team" missions are too narrow for more than one person. VP and LE upgrade types tend to be gained through mechanics abusing means. Changes so rewards could be more effectively gained through more effort rather than just constant repetition makes gaining them more pleasant. Fixing the mechanics so they can't be grossly abused keeps things fairer and helps ensure things were gained by actual effort. Something like that happened with AXP so why not VP and types in these missions too? (I go into more detail on this issue in my thread on the matter linked in my sig.)
    5. More tokens for more work. We generally do barely green missions or hand in token guns as no matter how hard the task how many tokens you get depends only on your char's lvl when you use the mission token. So we do the fastest task that gives a mission token. A change that rewarded more effort would improve things. I know Means recently said they'd look/think about adding more ways to get tokens but based on past experience it will be new missions for just lvl 210-220s or so. Tokens benefit chars of all lvls, some universal change to token gains would be more useful.



    Aside from just adding/changing things to a way that is more enjoyable to do they could also remove or lessen the things that are in no way fun.
    1. For team locked PFs and team missions they could add a portal that pops up after killing the boss or clearing the mission area then killing the boss. This portal would stay up permanently and when used sends you to just outside/inside the entrance of the mission/PF. The place is clear and the rat in a maze bit or long run to get out is not fun and a waste of time.
    2. A portal similar to the one mentioned above could be added after killing a dungeon boss. This one though would only last some 5-10 minutes after the boss is killed. If you could get there you could get back but many train back as it's faster, which tends to bugger things up for others.
    3. Add delivery to GMS. Finding the next item happens to be in the same way out of the way shop building you just came back from gets old fast.
    4. Speed up the chat rate of NPCs. No matter how fast or slowly they chat if a person doesn't want to read it they won't and will just watch for the next chat option to pop up. If they do want to read it they can always scroll up.
    5. Allow combining things and stack splitting in backpacks. People don't TS lvl anymore and having to take everything out all the time to do either task is a pain.
    6. Change PB parts so they stack. This applies to the pattern pieces, novi and filled crystals plus perhaps completed patterns, partial patterns and novictumized crystals. Perennium bolts and sheets stack making them easier to collect in volume, why not do the same for PB parts? Also the space saving and running back and forth saved as a result with this can't be denied.
    7. Give the PBs that drop nothing something to drop and add the patterns that don't drop to the loot table. It's certainly not fun and a waste of time to spend time getting pattern parts for PBs that give you nothing. That or hunting mobs for pattern parts for PBs that could give you something you want only to find those patterns don't drop.
    8. Change insignias so they stack. Yes I know it says they can't right in the description but just how many packs of items do we need to lug around?
    9. More backpack options to speed some tasks up. These would be things like assigning a default backpack appearance so we don't have to adjust each one manually. If you put a backpack with items in it in a shop terminal all the items are emptied out for sale. Assigning certain backpacks so when you pick an item up they automatically go in that pack. Linking backpacks so you scroll through the contents of multiple packs from one backpack window.


    What other things do you think could be changed to make them more enjoyable or removed that are just seemingly senseless grinds?

  2. #2
    Wow, a lot of goodies here. I love the idea of insignias/PBs stacking. Those of use who save things reguardless can appreciate that stuff. Also, on top of making things TS'd within a backpack, I suggest making it to there you can use items in backpacks in shortcut bars rather than only able to make them used in inventory. That's flat out stupid.

    Rubber Baby Bugger Bumpers!
    Aborted "Provision" Lovechild - 220/30/70 - Shade

  3. #3
    Good ideas, all pretty much standard fare in MMOs nowadays
    bai2u!
    -::l2pvp!1::-
    Electronite: FFA also destroyed Clan hegemony when it comes to tower wars. Ironically the downfall was started by the most active pvpers. Another ironic thing is that the downfall happened due to pvm conflict. Silirrion: (We have pretty good anti-troll filters by now though) Means: Thong-wearing troxes will always be a part of this game and a point of AO pride. Keldros: Obviously reall trolls don't use conditioner Marlark: If this forum was Swedish in it's language .. id pawn you any day. 220 NT: tl7 is a joke most of the time. 90% of the people are double double dead. some are worth debuffing tho. Mastablasta: you guys are right and I'm wrong. Ebag: No. You alpha me'd due to the stat bug. More Ebag: I don't have any twinks currently, nor do I participate much in mass TL7 PvP (though I do go occasionally, usually just to watch). Questra: an MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugyaz View Post
    Also, on top of making things TS'd within a backpack
    Once upon a time you could do that you know, then they removed it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fugyaz View Post
    I suggest making it to there you can use items in backpacks in shortcut bars rather than only able to make them used in inventory.
    I think that's a little different from what this is about as I think it is that way as a sort of limiting/balancing function. The idea being if it's that important to you to have it on the shortcut bar you'd put it in your inventory. They can still be used from the backpack though. Being able to put things in your shortcut bar that are in your backpack is certainly something that gets suggested often enough. Be nice to see it happen.

    Although one reason we have so many freaking backpacks in our inventory is there are so many things to lug around with us or pick up. If it weren't for that we'd have more inventory space to put those items.

  5. #5
    Well, I was refering to such things as MA attacks, rings, grafts, stims+stims+stims+virus scanner+stims+stims.. Rinse and Repeat (c) 50% of my inventory is backpacks, the other 50% is solely them type of specific items.
    Aborted "Provision" Lovechild - 220/30/70 - Shade

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixOfAges View Post

    I think that's a little different from what this is about as I think it is that way as a sort of limiting/balancing function. The idea being if it's that important to you to have it on the shortcut bar you'd put it in your inventory. They can still be used from the backpack though. Being able to put things in your shortcut bar that are in your backpack is certainly something that gets suggested often enough. Be nice to see it happen.

    Although one reason we have so many freaking backpacks in our inventory is there are so many things to lug around with us or pick up. If it weren't for that we'd have more inventory space to put those items.
    I agree to this with the exception of MA attacks. Not because my main is a MA but because there is already a backpack which seems to be designed for this(The book of knowlege).

    I'd like to sugest and alternative though... Maybe allow for some sort of loot bag function. Where you can set it so when you loot an item it automatically transfers to a selected bag.
    Darkkblood level 220 MA AI:18

    Darkmetals level 149 Eng AI:0

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixOfAges View Post
    Change insignias so they stack. Yes I know it says they can't right in the description but just how many packs of items do we need to lug around?
    I disagree with this. Insignias are meant to take up a lot of space in order to coerce the person into doing the key quest. Else people would just farm like 100 of them and never bother.
    Crzyboy88 220/19 Omni Fixer RK2

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by hatman88 View Post
    I disagree with this. Insignias are meant to take up a lot of space in order to coerce the person into doing the key quest. Else people would just farm like 100 of them and never bother.
    I disagree with this because the main benafit in my view to the keys is ease of travel between gardens and buying nanos.
    Darkkblood level 220 MA AI:18

    Darkmetals level 149 Eng AI:0

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by hatman88 View Post
    I disagree with this. Insignias are meant to take up a lot of space in order to coerce the person into doing the key quest. Else people would just farm like 100 of them and never bother.
    And here I thought the key quest was to, you know, make it so you don't have to "farm like 100 of them".

    Plus what Darkkblood said.

  10. #10
    a very nice list of things that would this game even more fun and less grind/clickwars.

    *bump* on all of them!
    RK3
    Lordphoenix (220/19 adv)
    Lucker (174/18 engi)

  11. #11

    nethack

    What could be the reason to teleport people ? "evol boss thanks u becose u killed him?" just use teleportation perks when u feel lazy or go to lft and ask your engifriend to warp you.
    Some RP elements is needed to to keep this game alive.

    What comes to VPs and BS ,best reward is dead opponent and good fight everyhing else is secondary.if people really really wants some VP rewards with less pain they will not respect their "rewards" as much ,like leveling nowadays "dinging" is not rewarding ,you dont feel happpy happy joyjoy when u ding 50 times in 2 hours by doing nothing,or maybe im wrong,point is ,its not celebration time anymore when you ding or get rewards ,its just usual carbage,and people are demanding to get that carbage even more easier and faster and faster and easier.

    4. # Speed up the char rate of NPCs.*** bump
    ................

  12. #12
    You forget that noone playing this game is doing it for fun, they're all doing it for the rewards. It's easy to see that when reading the forums.
    Thor Mastablasta Hammersmith - Level 220, AI 30, LE 70 Clan Atrox Nano Technician - Setup
    The Red Brotherhood

    I'm a Nano-Technician, don't ever expect me to fight unbuffed, alone or fair.

    Means: about f'ing time :P
    Satenia: heresy <3
    Znore: Mastablasta <3
    Kinkstaah: I have agro from many mobs ;(
    Madarab: we are aoe class, we are supose to use pistols
    Marxgorm: the NT toolset does not fit into my raiding tactics

  13. #13
    make the rewards fun maybe=]

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Mastablasta View Post
    You forget that noone playing this game is doing it for fun, they're all doing it for the rewards. It's easy to see that when reading the forums.
    Couple a months ago i found new player from WA doing tradeskilling and selling junkmetal armors ,respect!!and maaan i was jealous!!least what i was able to do was that i bought all his stocks for decent price
    ................

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Mastablasta View Post
    You forget that noone playing this game is doing it for fun, they're all doing it for the rewards. It's easy to see that when reading the forums.
    True. I seem to remember one of the biggest whine threads after LE being about "Why isn't OFAB better than my CC?"

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugyaz View Post
    Well, I was refering to such things as MA attacks, rings, grafts, stims+stims+stims+virus scanner+stims+stims.. Rinse and Repeat (c) 50% of my inventory is backpacks, the other 50% is solely them type of specific items.
    I know the items you're talking about but some of the items you listed shouldn't be in your inventory. Only those that can be used in combat need to be on hotbars for easy access. Ones like standard treatment kits and virus scanners can't be used in combat so stick those in a backpack then put the backpack on a hotbar so you can open it to get at them easily. Other things to put in that pack are SL first aid items when on RK and RK first aid items when in SL. Buff grafts like the reflect shield ones can be put in the backpack while combat ones like root grafts can be put on the wrist slots of your social tab. Two rings can be put on the hand slots of your social tab and that does not interfere with combat.

    Although again I don't think what you're asking quite fits here. What you're asking for is a kind of straight feature change like asking Form of Risan to stack with evade buffs. I'm not against the change, I just don't think it fits the theme of this thread.




    Quote Originally Posted by Darkkblood View Post
    I agree to this with the exception of MA attacks. Not because my main is a MA but because there is already a backpack which seems to be designed for this(The book of knowlege).
    True enough and as my main is a MA too I have to mess with those MA attacks and such more than other profs too. But again while I like the idea I don't think it fits the theme of this thread. All the suggestions people make to change some feature are as they think it would be more fun that way. So as that's the case every suggestion would go in here. I'm trying to limit them to the kind of things like I listed in the original post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkkblood View Post
    I'd like to sugest and alternative though... Maybe allow for some sort of loot bag function. Where you can set it so when you loot an item it automatically transfers to a selected bag.
    Oh, more backpack options, yeah, that'd be good. Things like default set up so we don't have to make each one look the way we like every time. Then other things like you mentioned or emptying your backpack contents into a shop rather than moving one at a time. That kind of stuff would save time and is a pain to do all the time.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by hatman88 View Post
    I disagree with this. Insignias are meant to take up a lot of space in order to coerce the person into doing the key quest. Else people would just farm like 100 of them and never bother.
    Not really. When traveling here to there in a SL zone you may constantly go from the garden to where ever often. If you do not have a key you'd have to frequently stop just to farm insignias as they don't drop from everything so may not drop at all from the mobs you're hunting, if you're even hunting mobs at all. Stacking or not the real time expense is in that farming. Stacking just saves you from added running to and from your bank as you've run out of space in your backpacks since you need more space just for those. Also you may want to store them for use in other things like to do the faction mob boss summoning in the temples for certain items or quests.

    Other things the key gives you the insignias don't are...
    • Allowed to buy nanos at that garden/sanc.
    • Much easier travel from other gardens/sancs or RK as you can only use keys, not insignias on the statues.
    • SL warp nanos or the SL beacon require you to wear the key of the one you're going to.
    • You need to get the garden key before you can get the sanc key.
    • The keys add bonuses when worn, the big one being treatment.
    • I think you need the key before you're allowed to pull SL missions from the NPC of that garden. I'm not sure about that though.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Mastablasta View Post
    You forget that noone playing this game is doing it for fun, they're all doing it for the rewards. It's easy to see that when reading the forums.
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueThundar View Post
    make the rewards fun maybe=]
    More like make the rewards more fun to get. Killing a mob that has no chance against you as it's nothing but a health bar to chew through is not fun. A mob with less health so the fight is likely shorter but has a collection of nasty tricks that make it a threat is more fun. This is sort of like stun procs for a crat, the almost perma stunned mob had no chance so now they are roots. Then a quest you can't do at the lvl the rewards are mainly of use for without a 220 babysitter is also not fun. The 220 is doing the work and you're just following along or standing somewhere safe in the same zone to get the kill credit.

    The reward itself is all well and good but if the process to get the reward is not enjoyable it's just a grind to get out of the way. For instance likely no one likes the Scheol quest lines, but some of the rewards from it are nice. So we grind through it but hate it all the way along.

    The joy from a reward is very temporary. If the process and game play is not fun though that tends to drag on you more than the momentary pleasure from getting a reward.

  19. #19
    ...For instance likely no one likes the Scheol quest lines, but some of the rewards from it are nice. So we grind through it but hate it all the way along.
    God, yes. This rings particularly true to me because I am currently bogged down in this very zone. Can't get a team, if it's not hecks/borgs/aliens nobody wants to do it. Only hope is paying some bored guy to log his dusty 220 to run you through.

    That's pretty much what AO seems to be about. You're either grinding for money to pay for help, or you're AFK in a heck team.

    How can I recommend this to anyone?
    edit: To illustrate, I was trying to convince a friend to try AO, and the best thing I could come up with was "it's free".
    Last edited by drainbamage; Jul 28th, 2009 at 23:42:31.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by drainbamage View Post
    God, yes. This rings particularly true to me because I am currently bogged down in this very zone. Can't get a team, if it's not hecks/borgs/aliens nobody wants to do it. Only hope is paying some bored guy to log his dusty 220 to run you through.

    That's pretty much what AO seems to be about. You're either grinding for money to pay for help, or you're AFK in a heck team.

    How can I recommend this to anyone?
    edit: To illustrate, I was trying to convince a friend to try AO, and the best thing I could come up with was "it's free".
    So much truth
    bai2u!
    -::l2pvp!1::-
    Electronite: FFA also destroyed Clan hegemony when it comes to tower wars. Ironically the downfall was started by the most active pvpers. Another ironic thing is that the downfall happened due to pvm conflict. Silirrion: (We have pretty good anti-troll filters by now though) Means: Thong-wearing troxes will always be a part of this game and a point of AO pride. Keldros: Obviously reall trolls don't use conditioner Marlark: If this forum was Swedish in it's language .. id pawn you any day. 220 NT: tl7 is a joke most of the time. 90% of the people are double double dead. some are worth debuffing tho. Mastablasta: you guys are right and I'm wrong. Ebag: No. You alpha me'd due to the stat bug. More Ebag: I don't have any twinks currently, nor do I participate much in mass TL7 PvP (though I do go occasionally, usually just to watch). Questra: an MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

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