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Old Feb 26th, 2010, 16:04:16   #1
Wrangeline
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GTH and BR changes. (Info from Means)

http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...d.php?t=570785

Putting link to info here in trader section for obvious reasons.

Discuss
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Old Feb 26th, 2010, 16:58:28   #2
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Q: What will this adjustment do to GTH in the PVM enviroment?

{removed by Anarrina: message me if you have questions}

On a side note:

From reading Mean's post, I get the feeling that it confirms the idea that people hate (dislike), the concept of a Trader for the most part. ie: A profession that weakens there opponent and if unchecked will cripple them...

People dont mind being weakened alittle, but makes the profession a gimp. People hate(dislike) being hurt or crippled by debuffs. (which makes the profession fun to play) ....I hope this is not a trend which puts the Trader in the stone age again for 2-3 years.
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Old Feb 26th, 2010, 17:00:26   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by odian102 View Post
Q: What will this adjustment do to GTH in the PVM enviroment?


{removed}
I will log onto test when the patch is out and try it. (I think Means said it should be later today barring major problems)
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Old Feb 26th, 2010, 17:09:58   #4
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thks Wrangeline...
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Old Feb 26th, 2010, 17:19:39   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by odian102 View Post
On a side note:

From reading Mean's post, I get the feeling that it confirms the idea that people hate (dislike), the concept of a Trader for the most part. ie: A profession that weakens there opponent and if unchecked will cripple them...

People dont mind being weakened alittle, but makes the profession a gimp. People hate(dislike) being hurt or crippled by debuffs. (which makes the profession fun to play) ....I hope this is not a trend which puts the Trader in the stone age again for 2-3 years.
For the most part it's not that people are really scared of being debuffed. It's the fact that, especially with Grand Theft Humidity, it can be a bit too much at certain levels - complete nanopool wipe at TL7 with no gain for a full minute, or nanite drains at level 92 sending players' AR into the negatives while also having access to +300 AAD, things like that. FunCom is still a bit undecided on how we work, since we're such a unique profession, and have overlooked rather dangerous aspects of our profession (i.e. we rely on drains to buff not only weaponskills but nanoskills, and that these nanoskills can in turn be used to cast very strong nanos with no level locks).

Chacapo and I will make sure that Traders don't become wimps again, you can be sure of that.
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Old Feb 26th, 2010, 17:44:18   #6
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I'd like the thank the trader professionals and the trader community in general for their work in helping to reduce the severity of certain nemesis nanos. I know that alot of you would prefer more static defense or longer-lasting defense rather than "nemesis" solutions and I definately agree that it's a better option for any profession.

Soldiers feel simiarly about RI against agents, and hopefully that nemesis nano will recieve a similar treatment.
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Old Feb 26th, 2010, 17:54:11   #7
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I would have no problem with traders current level of debuff power if they didn't last so long. Three and a half minutes for the negative effect on a drain is ridiculous. Indefinitely keeping GTH on a target is ridiculous, especially considering how strong it is towards 5 professions in particular.

GTH is still going to be really strong after the proposed changes Means posted (15% every 1 second for 15 seconds, ie 225% of someones pool). But it has a 60s lockout, which gives balance.
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Old Feb 26th, 2010, 18:01:31   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountaingoat View Post
GTH is still going to be really strong after the proposed changes Means posted (15% every 1 second for 15 seconds, ie 225% of someones pool). But it has a 60s lockout, which gives balance.
Yeah I guess. It's hard to say how well GTH will work since all we got atm is theory and "paper pvp" and also that nanocosts and maybe nano-regeneration will be changed/nerfed a bit with the balance patches.

Based solely on those numbers though, keeping in mind the nano-regeneration perks and such that people have, it will take about 8-9 seconds and possibly way more than that for NT's, to bring their nano to 0. At that point GTH will only last for a few more seconds. What we are left with is a very tiny window where docs are unable to heal and NT's are unable to nuke and so on. Especially now that once that tiny window has passed, we got 45 seconds until the next time we can do it.

I'm curious of how we will be able to take advantage of GTH's effect when it will only have a great effect on the target for a few seconds. I know it will leave the target with an empty nanopool once the effect is over but if the target didn't bother to use nano-regen perks and stims and such while GTH was running, they can use it after and then be able to cast again.

I'm not saying that GTH will be "underpowered" in any way, either way. I'm just wondering exactly how effective it will be. It might be less useful than it sounds on paper.
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Old Feb 26th, 2010, 18:24:14   #9
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One word: Nanobot defense

Okay, thats 2.
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it's written in the bible.
Matthew 23:13 "and the trader hath casteth bulk trader at the young age of 14. and it was good. and so he hath an extra 260 comp lit and he hath equippeth better ncu's. and it was good too.
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Old Feb 26th, 2010, 19:12:53   #10
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Versus NT, this new version, despite being shorter, is stronger. It will empty nanopool in 7 seconds, like with the old one, but the tick after that will be -6Kish per second instead of -4K per 5 seconds, which means NT won't be able to cast anything for the 7 seconds remaining of the formula.

It still locks NT out of NBGing too.

But yeah the most annoying factor, that you d better take a trip to deco, is partly gone.

In duel it might makes some fair fights, need to check ig, if you add the 60% reflect from BR once in BS/mass pvp it might still be ridiculous
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Old Feb 26th, 2010, 19:46:33   #11
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GTH and BR changes. (Info from Means)

New patch on test server now. I'm logged in and just tested GTH on myself.

Lasts 15 seconds. 60 sec lockout.
Casting it on yourself puts the hostile effect in your NCU but not the positive effect. {removed by Anarrina: message me if you have questions}
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Old Feb 26th, 2010, 19:47:37   #12
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BR will be a good counter to NS2 when it loses its root.
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Old Feb 26th, 2010, 20:06:46   #13
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Some more testing:

BR does not work on NT's reflect and NT's NBG-reflect (haven't tested against NS1 or NS2 yet). It's the wrong type of reflect I guess. Engie and soldier reflect is affected just fine.

BR lasts 60 seconds on me and 15 seconds on the target. ATM there's no cooldown so I can spam it and keep myself topped up on reflect as long as there are people around me to cast it on. I can't cast BR on a target that is still under the 15-sec effect of BR if he has less than 24% reflect while BR is running on him. However, when those 15 seconds is over, I can refresh my BR on him again.

Metaing (a dev) said that this will probably be changed
So I guess the cooldown or such will be added in the next build on test.

GTH only lasting 15 sec makes our Nanobot Shield a bit.. bleh. However with rrfe, BR and GTH running (yes br and rrfe stacks just fine), it seems to protect us from a fair amount of damage during those 15 seconds. Once those 15 seconds is over though, we are left with 0 nanopool for a long time.
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Old Feb 26th, 2010, 20:28:37   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrangeline View Post
New patch on test server now. I'm logged in and just tested GTH on myself.

Lasts 15 seconds. 60 sec lockout.
Casting it on yourself puts the hostile effect in your NCU but not the positive effect. {removed by Anarrina: message me if you have questions}

{removed}

All I know is I judge pvp in 30-60 sec battles with a 5-10 min. cooldown for the losers and the dead to grid back to the Tower location. If you look at profession capabilities in a 30-60sec window, you will see some professions have a huge adv. and some professions have a huge disadvantage.

This basically means: GTH is a 1 try per battle kind of nano.... Bummer.

{removed by Anarrina: message me if you have questions}

It never stops... for the trader profession....

crazy... i need to pick another primary profession to play... this one just gives me heartache ...
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Old Feb 26th, 2010, 21:46:28   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by odian102 View Post
From reading Mean's post, I get the feeling that it confirms the idea that people hate (dislike), the concept of a Trader for the most part. ie: A profession that weakens there opponent and if unchecked will cripple them...
I think most people are fine with the concept of traders. However, in the case of BR or GTH, it isn't "crippled if left unchecked": both those nanos cripple the target immediately and with no real way to stop it from happening.
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Old Feb 26th, 2010, 22:32:57   #16
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or nanite drains at level 92 sending players' AR into the negatives while also having access to +300 AAD, things like that.
56, maybe lower, not 92


Anyways I hope traders understand that they will be able to steal reflects from everyone in the future, thus this is a very good thing. I supposed traders have a major survival issue in mass pvp, but I hope this doesn't make traders even more of an uphill battle in Battlestation encounters. What traders usually don't seem to admit is that it isn't their whole toolset affecting a player that beats them, its usually one successfully landing nano.
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Old Feb 26th, 2010, 23:58:49   #17
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I'm worried that FC's direction for traders is to be casting to get competitive offensive AND defensive skills. Am I the only one that thinks we have too much casting to do in PVP? Well, I guess we just got more.

Well, if BR stacks with RRFE, that's going to be rather powerful. Of course, no one will be stupid enough to use reflects above 23% now so perhaps that's FC's whole intent. Soldiers are rather complaining I still see but it's all dependent on what the reflect cap is going to be anyways. If they cap reflect at 75%, then whatever they get above that number is just BR buffer anyways. In the end, soldiers should be pleased.

GTH? yeah, that's a good change.
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Old Feb 27th, 2010, 00:19:05   #18
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Does BR work against the innate zset reflects? Plagiarize Notum is a one hit thingy right? GTH empties their pool then you work at keeping them low/empty with oldschool drains, plagiarize notum, and nanodrain ring?

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Old Feb 27th, 2010, 01:22:33   #19
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Originally Posted by Mountaingoat View Post
Does BR work against the innate zset reflects? Plagiarize Notum is a one hit thingy right? GTH empties their pool then you work at keeping them low/empty with oldschool drains, plagiarize notum, and nanodrain ring?
Sounds about right.

The problem I see with the plethora of nanos we need to cast is just that, we *need* to cast them to counteract the kind of crazy stuff people can throw at us (2+ specials, at least one of which is guaranteed to cap, on top of 4+ 1-second perks; or a bombardment of nukes, debuffs, stuns, roots, snares, what have you) It's imperative, at this stage of PVP, to have all those nanos because we have no other choice. I would dearly love only needing a couple debuffs to keep the fight even, but unfortunately we can't.

I do see a problem with having (and needing) two nanos for nanodrain, two nanos for skill drain, two for AAO or AAD modifying another for health draining... It's damn lucky we didn't need two MORE nanos for our ability to drain critchance. To fix this problem would require a drastic slowdown in PVP, perhaps requiring all specials to have an execution timer, to recycle slower, for all non-shade offensive perks to take longer...

Thereby lies the reason it's dangerous to be a unique profession. To be quite honest, I see the other 13 professions in PVP to be either DD, heals, or a mixture; but we're none of those. We're a freight train of debuffs that FC and others have gotten scared of fixing, because what they fix, break, or modify affects PVP on such a sharp scale, since our toolset focuses on modifying *other players'* toolsets.
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Old Feb 27th, 2010, 11:04:53   #20
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More info from Means that is important to keep in mind (From the FWM-thread):

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This was the first version of these changes to BR and GTH that were OBVIOUSLY meant to generate discussion. There has been a great deal of supportive and constructive feedback in this thread that will help make sure that the versions of BR and GTH that are actually patched to live will be as they should be from our perspective AND the playerbase's.

We do not think these are "done"...I'm sorry if anyone got that impression.
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