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Thread: Brainstorming Session - Faster Than Light Travel

  1. #1

    Brainstorming Session - Faster Than Light Travel

    Brainstorming Index

    Disclaimer: The Brainstorming Sessions are an attempt to cover specific topics which sometimes come across as a little gray. They will be presented with cited facts at the top which players can refer to for concrete information on the topic. Following the facts will be speculations on the topic which may or may not be true due to a lack of information. Until concrete information on a topic is made available please feel free to comment on the speculative ideas, post your own, or even adopt them into your story.

    Facts:
    __________
    • Earth is in the Solar System in the Orion Spur [1]
    • Omni-Prime is in the Perseus Arm: 10,000 LY from Earth (+/- 5,000LY) [1][5]
    • Rubi-Ka is in the Outer Arm: 25,000 LY from Earth (+/- 5,000LY) [1][6]
    • Starships can travel faster then the speed of light.
      • They can enter Hyperspace [2]
      • They can enter Subspace [3]
      • They can enter a Slipstream [4]
    • The speed in which a Starship can travel is sometimes measured in LS/U. [4]
    • The Speed of a starship is variable. [4]



    Speculations:
    __________
    How Fast is Fast?
    1) LS/U is a measurement of distance that roughly translates to how many Light Years a vessel can travel in one standard earth day. This would make the trip to Rubi-Ka from Earth take 2.6 years.

    2) Alternatively, extremely fast methods of travel could be employed to ease on storytelling. In an old E-mail from Morton I was told that the trip to Rubi-Ka from Omni-Prime would take a shuttle craft three weeks. This would be traveling roughly 700 light years per day for 21 days, or, has a jump ratio of roughly 7 if the standard unit of FTL travel is equal to 100 Light Years per day. The ICC vessels which escorted the Battle Stations were able to achieve a jump ratio of roughly 0.27. Multiply the jump Factor by 100 to achieve the LS/U, meaning a standard shuttle can travel at roughly 700 LS/U. This would make a Trip from Rubi-Ka to Earth take roughly 35 days.

    * The larger the vessel the larger the mass and the lower the Jump Factor will be.


    Figuring the above out hurt my brain so much I'm going to just stop there for now.


    Citing:
    __________

    1. Annotated Map of the Milky Way Galaxy

    2. Timeline

    3. Timeline

    4. Timeline

    5. Homepage Archives

    6. Homepage Archives
    Last edited by Trousers; Jun 2nd, 2010 at 13:13:19. Reason: Index Link added.
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  2. #2
    Good god

    As a big fan of AO's storyline, I'd love to see where this ends up going
    Atlantean
    ------------------
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  3. #3
    What of possible time dilation due to traveling faster then light?

    Is the 2.6 years (949.6 days) stated travel time from Earth to Rubi-Ka, requiring speeds of around 26.3 (25,000 / 949.6) LS/U, how long it seemed like to the occupants of the ship? If I'm reading the 'Lorentz factor' properly (which I admit is way beyond me) that means time would be traveling (relatively) 588 (22.366 (time dilation factor according to Lorentz occurring at 0.999% of C (light speed)) * 26.3 (how many times faster then light we're traveling)) times slower for those in the ship making the journey not 2.6 years but 3.7 days for them while those on Rubi-Ka or Earth would be waiting 2.6 years.

    (Note that due to the advanced nature of this science and it being waaayy beyond me my math could be so totally off as to be ridiculous)

    You think your brain hurts, Trousers?
    Last edited by Ayria; Jun 2nd, 2010 at 09:30:11.
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  4. #4
    Time dilation may only be something that occurs when you approach the speed of light in Normal Space, but since the mode of travel occurs in 'different space' it may not apply?

    I'll have to do some looking into it, but I'm not confident I'll even be able to fully grasp the stuff I'll be looking at
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  5. #5
    Yes but if my math on time dilation is correct why would you want to spend (in stasis or not) 2.6 years flying through hyperspace when the ship could fly 2.6 years (to those on Rubi-Ka or Earth, a length of time they'd have to wait be it by hyperspace or not) and only seem like 3.7 days to those on board?

    The speed of 26.3 LS/U is certainly within range of the technology at their disposal.
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  6. #6
    (trying to stay OT...we'll see how well I do)

    If the trip feels like 4 days travel, that doesn't seem like a lot of time to review the different professions and make a decision. For that matter, why would a Nanomage leave the planet (and therefore crash on the planet)?

  7. #7
    People don't start on Earth and travel to Rubi-Ka. We choose our stuff on a space station in orbit around Rubi-Ka (I think it's visible from the Sunrise Luxury Apartments).

    I think.
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Ayria View Post
    What of possible time dilation due to traveling faster then light?
    From what little (very) I can understand of the underlying physics, time dilation is the universe's way to get around the causality problems caused by an object moving at very high (up to near light) speed, but not beyond. The speed of light is an absolute barrier that can be approached (and reached in certain conditions) but never, under any circumstances (like, what if two objects move towards each other, both of them at the speed of light; the speed of one such object observed from the other should be twice the light of speed, but won't, and cannot, be even in that case) crossed.

    Hence it does not (can not) deal with the theoretical scenario of something moving faster than the speed of light (even though that should also result in severe causality paradoxes that would also have to be resolved by similar effects), as that object would have to fall outside the frame of reference the theory of relativity works within first, to be able to pass the light barrier to begin with.

    So, for any sublight travel (if there is still any in use in the AO universe), time dilation and all other relativity-related effects should apply, but the hyperspace/subspace/slipstream/whatever FTL methods probably fall outside of its scope, since they generally have to cheat their ways around the light speed boundary by some "miracle way" first, not to violate causality (as that should be considered being impossible, under any and all circumstances).

    That is to say, the way I see it, FTL travel should be considered as "real time": ship time (subjective time) = universe time (objective time).
    Last edited by Honorbound; Jun 3rd, 2010 at 09:16:14.

    "All things point to that they didn't play to win, but for the game itself and to play well. ... Later in their evolution, they forgot all about playing and having fun. When their corrupted minds only cared for what new ways they could gain power, there was no room for the simple things in life."
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  9. #9
    I like to think of it as impossible.. for now. Simple because we are unable to fathom or simulate faster then light travel doesn't mean it's totally impossible
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  10. #10
    well.. light isnt fast enough to escape from black holes, but the gravity is..
    thoughts?
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Otinsainpas View Post
    well.. light isnt fast enough to escape from black holes, but the gravity is..
    thoughts?
    Well you can talk about light as "travelling" in our common spacetime perception, but gravity is what black holes are, it's not "travelling" or "escaping" anywhere, it's just a curvature of space according to Einstein.

    Besides, in the futuristic world of AO why would you need a spaceship to travel? You can just teleport to any location that has a "receiver" by transferring all information about your body and recreating it on the receiving side the same way as reclaim terminals work. Information can travel at the speed of light so that basically gives you an ability to travel at the speed of light as well. Of course you'd have to get to that distant point first to build the receiving hardware but we can assume it's been done in the past.

    Or if the storyline strictly requires travelling faster than lightspeed, I guess it wouldn't work without wormholes (which are arguably possible either, but still more probable than spaceships that travel faster than the speed of light)
    Last edited by Calamite; Jun 4th, 2010 at 01:07:29.
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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Calamite View Post
    Well you can talk about light as "travelling" in our common spacetime perception, but gravity is what black holes are, it's not "travelling" or "escaping" anywhere, it's just a curvature of space according to Einstein.
    and Mr. Copernicus said Sun was center of everything.. and he was right from his point of view.

    gravity is a force, just like electromagnetism.. both have transmitting particles, photons and gravitons. light(photons) cannot escape from black hole, but gravitons can. particles has weight and speed.. so.. why the "gravity" is transmitted from there and light isnt
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Calamite View Post
    Besides, in the futuristic world of AO why would you need a spaceship to travel? You can just teleport to any location that has a "receiver" by transferring all information about your body and recreating it on the receiving side the same way as reclaim terminals work. Information can travel at the speed of light so that basically gives you an ability to travel at the speed of light as well. Of course you'd have to get to that distant point first to build the receiving hardware but we can assume it's been done in the past.
    This traveling would have to involve killing yourself, because the soul needs to be transfered to that new body. And reclaim tech only works on RK for now because of the notum rich environment. But I think there have been recent breakthroughs.

    Also the mentioning of jumpfactors reminds me of jumping from point to point through wormholes rather then travelling through realspace.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Otinsainpas View Post
    gravity is a force, just like electromagnetism.
    "Force" is a term from school physics. Yes, there is quantum gravity theory but it's not complete and not approved yet, from what I know they still haven't found a graviton, and even if it does exist it is a quantum of *gravity waves*, not *gravity* itself. Gravity waves won't get out of black holes, same as electromagnetic waves (which light is). Electromagnetic field can exist around a black hole though if it has a charge, same as gravitational field.
    Last edited by Calamite; Jun 4th, 2010 at 18:09:54.
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    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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  15. #15
    @ OP: lotsa <3 for ya, but you need a GF. ^_^
    I'm just glad Demoder didn't use this topic to [nerd snipe] you.
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Xyphos View Post
    @ OP: lotsa <3 for ya, but you need a GF. ^_^
    I'm just glad Demoder didn't use this topic to [nerd snipe] you.

    You're right, I do. I can only live the American Dream when I have a Wife, and a Girlfriend on the side
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  17. #17
    Ok, my take on this – expanding on my speculative point #2.

    There are two common modes of Faster Than Light travel is use today.
    1. Hyperspace (U0D0+0.5)
    2. Subspace (U0D0-1)


    Hyperspace, as I would like to define it, would be the ability for a vessel to exceed the speed of light by removing itself from normal space while under the power of its own engines.

    Subspace, as I would like to define it, would be the ability for a vessel to exceed the speed of light by being removed from and placed back into normal space via portals.

    In either case the vessel is removed from normal space which allows the vessel to exceed the Speed of Light which is the limit of speed in Normal Space.

    Hyperspace Travel is achieved by vessels by using a Hyperdrive to remove their vessel from Normal Space and placing it in Hyperspace where the vessel then moves significantly faster then it would in normal space. If a vessel fails to be able to power its hyperdrive the vessel will fall out of Hyperspace and return to normal space. The drawback to this method of travel is the vast amounts of energy required to travel Faster Than Light under your own engine strength. While a convenience, most vessels which would do frequent or long distance travel would likely need to be specially designed to accomplish the task and be a uni-purpose vessel. In additional to the cost of the hyperdrive itself, the vessels would need a number of costly improvements to sustain Hyperspace travel such as reinforced hulls and advanced navigational computers.

    Subspace Travel is achieved by vessels by using super massive jumpgates which, using a tremendous amount of energy, rips open a tunnel in Subspace and places the vessel inside. The vessel then move rapidly, in a straight line, through subspace until it arrives at another gate which rips open an exit for the vessel to depart from. Subspace jumpgates allow smaller vessels which are unable of powering their own hyperdrives to achieve Faster Than Light travel. The drawback is that should a miscalculation or malicious act occur and a vessel miss the exit jumpgate it may become lost in subspace forever since the vessel will be unable to generate the power needed to rip its own exit.

    Other Limitations:

    Subspace, sometimes referred to as the Slipstream, has been found to accelerate any object to a velocity of 100 Light Years per Day regardless of the vessel's mass. The Two Limiting Factors to Subspace Travel are as follows:

    1. It requires a tremendous amount of energy to open a gateway into Subspace. Because of the energy requirement no vessels are known to possess the energy output capabilities to successfully open or close their own Subspace gateways. This makes entry to and exit from subspace very static and some locations a pilot wishes to reach may be unreachable via subspace directly.
    2. The amount of energy required to open a Subspace Gateway get increasingly larger the bigger the hole that needs to be opened. This limits the size of the vessels which can enter Subspace because the Jumpgates are limited in their ability to to create Gateways. Medium to Large vessels are simply too large to enter the gateways and therefore cannot enter Subspace. While most large vessels can in fact rip open a subspace gateway the size of the hole would be too small for the creating vessel to pass through. This does allow larger vessels to open subspace gateways for smaller vessels but due to the high precision needed in the calculation of the gateway's creation this is rarely done as it more often then not results in vessels becoming lost in space.


    Hyperspace is the most common mode of transportation used on medium to large vessels. Hyperspace, since achieved under the ship's own power, is several limiting factors.

    1. Speed is not consistent. Because of this fact vessels often times will travel 'slowly' compared to other vessels. This is because a small ship in Subspace will achieve a consistent 100LY/D while a large battleship may only be able to achieve 16LY/D. This segways into the second limiting factor.
    2. Fuel Resources are finite. To travel in Hyperspace a vessel needs to consume its fuel resources. Depending on how fast it attempts to accelerate itself the more fuel it will consume to do so. This often will result is vessels traveling far below their max speed in order to achieve longer trips.
    3. Crew has a limited capacity for survival. The Crew's ability to survive is limited by their ability to consume food, water and oxygen as much as their trip is limited by their ship's ability to consume fuel. While in Hyperspace the partials that exist in normal space which allow devices such as The Extruder to operate simply do not exist.


    This means that every hyperspace jump must be calculated to consider how fast can the ship travel to arrive at it's destination without running out of fuel and allowing the crew to survive the journey? Because of these limitations no Hyperspace journey has been successful to another Galaxy, or, was successful enough to be able to get there and report back.

    Jump Factors:

    Since subspace travel is the most common use of FTL travel by the population and it has a consistent speed of 100LY/D this has become the standard in measuring FTL travel. Traveling at 100LY/D either by using a Jumpgate or a Hyperdrive is referred to as a Jump Factor of 1.

    A small, dedicated shuttle which can travel between Omni-Prime and Rubi-Ka in 21 days would have a Jump Factor of 7.

    Large vessels such as the ICCS Anthonius and the ICCS Kirkpatrick which would take rough 540 days to complete the same trip the shuttle could do it 21 days would be said to have a jump factor of 0.27.
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  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Trousers View Post
    sniiip
    Jesus dude, how do you know all this stuff lol.

    How many creds for your brain?
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  19. #19
    Right up my street!

    Hyperspace is usually about non-Euclidean dimensions. The idea is that there are certain limitations to moving around in three spacial dimensions (things like the curved path you have to choose as well as the universal limit of the speed of light.) But if you could remove the ship from the normal spacial dimensions and move around in a fourth, you remove some of those restrictions kind of like flying a straight line rather than walking up and down hills...

    Really in SF it's just a plot device and hyperspace usually has fantasy properties (like being small so that a ship's acceleration is amplified in real space) and can somehow negate relativistic effects (like the ship being "removed" from normal space while travelling through hyperspace so only relative velocities in the new dimension need apply) or that hyperspace can be used in a warp-drive or foldspace kind of way to change the nature of normal space in 4 dimensions so that the distance between two points becomes shorter.

    AFAIK, the word Subspace is usually used in SF as synonymous to Hyperspace. Subspace in geometry (if I remember right) is just flat Euclidian space of any number of dimensions. So it gets treated the same as hyperpace in ficition in that it gets given fantasy properties which allow for whatever the author wants it to allow. Usually it's the same device just used to prop up a different part of the plot; like for example, if information needs to travel faster than a spaceship, data can be sent through "subspace" rather than "hyperspace" due to slightly different fantasy properties.

    In short. FC basically needed a way for people to move around the galaxy without it taking hundreds or thousands of years (like Marlin... who probably could've just invented a hyperdrive in less time and not gone crazy). They used the old Hyperspace cliche just like the old unobtainium McGuffin (notum). I've never read anything about the mechanics of it in any item descriptions or NPC chat. There's only that timeline article which was always, always bound to spawn inconsistencies just by the very fact of it mentioning impractical speeds.

    Also. WTF is is LS/U? That always bugged me. I've never come across a unit like that so I always assumed it was another plot device designed to work around inconsistencies. But you seem to know more about it, Trousers.

    If it's a standard proportional speed unit where LS refers to a distance (maybe light years?) and U refers to time (maybe days as suggested by Trousers) then the only info there is

    x distance at 4.4 LS/U = 5 years (x = 8030 LS)
    x distance at 26.4 LS/U = 3 weeks (x = 818 LS)

    So unless I cocked up my maths (likely) those speeds are already causing continuity problems (that article also has other issues for me that I won't go into). If the vast distances of space and the methods of travelling were a major theme in AO that would be cause to make a fuss. But really, it's about one little bit of one planet and hyperspace and the rest of it is simply a plot device to get people there. Continuity can be kept in the way you said: variable speeds. If that's enough for suspension of disbelief then it works and you don't need to worry about it, you can just give any time you feel appropriate and explain differences away in any way you like since the mechanics are never explained... engine power, hyperspace drift... whatever.

    TL;DR: Hyperspace in AO is just a throwaway plot device and doesn't really merit worrying about, in my personal opinion. If you can accept that an advy can turn into a tiny leet without breaking conservation of energy laws, you can accept differences in how people portray space travel in the AO universe.
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  20. #20
    Show Your Work

    Red,

    Here's the Math I used to derive the numbers for my conclusions:

    In a really old E-mail I got from Nevar which came from Morton, I was told it takes 3 weeks (21 Days) to travel from Rubi-Ka to Omni-Prime.

    Using a Map of the Milky Way Rubi-Ka is roughly 15,000 Light Years from Omni-Prime.

    15,000 / 21 = 714.28 Light Years Per Day.

    The ICCS vessels, the departure time is not specific on when the Battle Stations Left the Ship Yards, it just said “In the Summer” so I assume half way through the year, and they arrived in November of the following year. So, 1.5 years. 547.5 Days.

    I also assumed that the ICC Shipyards are roughly the same distance from Rubi-Ka as Omni-Prime, just in a different direction. 15,000 Light Years.

    15,000 / 574.5 = 26.11 Light Years Per Day.

    The 26.11 LY/D is very close to the 26.4 LS/U that the timeline cites, so, I think that would put my math inside the realm of what could be believable considering I am working completely abstractly here.
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