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Thread: Make quests more team-friendly and level-appropriate

  1. #1

    Make quests more team-friendly and level-appropriate

    I've been doing the Scheol Yuttos quest lately on a lowish alt with a friend, and it occurred to me that there are a few improvements that could be made in the way many of the quests in-game work.

    First of all, level-appropriateness.

    I enjoy doing quests on a team of characters that are actually the level the quest rewards seem intended for, and I dislike having to beg/bribe 220 help for low-level quests.
    The Scheol Yuttos quests and the Ado Brain quest are good examples - the Yuttos quest has a reward that can be used by anyone around level 120+, and yet as part of the quest line you have to kill your way through enormous numbers of mobs in the Scheol catacombs, kill a Temple boss, and kill the Firekeeper. I don't think even the most well-twinked team of 120s could manage it, and the chances of actually finding a team for it are remote anyway.

    If anything the Ado Brain quest is worse - a reward that's usable at lvl 132, and the quest has a number of bosses that not even the best team of 132s could manage.

    By the time you can finish this quest without 220 help, most profs don't actually need the reward any more.

    I think they're great quests, otherwise - but I would love to see the bosses gimped down to a level where there's actually a chance of killing them yourself in a low-level team.

    Also, it'd be REALLY nice if the existing quests were changed to be team-friendly. I'm talking about every quest where you have to farm for a particular item that's a random drop off mobs - if you get a team of 6, it'll actually take you 6x LONGER to do it in a team because you have to farm parts for everyone. And often they're a rare drop too, which makes a very frustrating experience.

    This does nothing but discourage team play and frustrate everyone - the kills would be so much faster and easier and more fun in a team, but people won't team since they only end up competing for the drops.

    And often the drops seem quite rare - I once had to kill over 200 Brimstone Demons for the Anansi quest before I managed to find one for my quest.

    If those quests were changed to "kill x many of the kind of mob that currently drops the item, and it spawns into the inventory of everyone in the team" I think you might see an increase in teaming activity

    Another thing to make the quests team-friendly would be to allow teammates to enter the same mission instance and complete the objective together in the quest stages that require you to get a mission key - like killing the Custodian for the Ado Brain quest. I know you can copy your key and help each other out that way, but why not just send everyone into the same one in the first place, like a team mission?

    This might be complicated in the "find item" missions, but there should be a way to work around that - maybe make the item spawn in all teammates inventories as a mission reward once someone completes the objective.

  2. #2
    Awesome ideas and points. I agree 99.9%

    The .01 is the mobs dropping parts. being able to kill scintillated spirits for the shards before you begin the quest is pretty neat. "Oh, you need me to kill THOSE? I've already killed tons! I probably have what you need." And in the case of teaming, a quest team would be expected to have farmed their parts ahead of time.

    Teaming for quests is in general hard in MMOs. It can be hard to find people on the same part as you, and its unlikely for a team to go back to help one person (or at least its not expected of anyone to do so). I actually think the better way way to go is to simply make them soloable. Designing them in a way to let teaming make it faster is also good, because you might want to do the whole quest with a friend.

    Some changes:

    Ado:
    -Make Muddy dryad level 160ish, same toolset, weaker tentacles.
    -Make Tower Keeper level 180ish, similar toolset
    -Lower the mobs in the rib cage to the same as the ones around them. Remove some of the
    white dryads in the area, the place is too packed with mobs that DoT hard.
    -Make blorggs not social. Perhaps there is a place where they are easy to pick at, but in my
    experience, you attack one, and soon you have 20 of them.
    -Increase range on heckler tagger. If you want to tag a heck, you have to get in aggro range of
    it. Once youre in aggro range, you're not gonna get out. This isnt too bad because you could
    actually just get into an ado heck team.
    -Add some quest at the end referring you to the dark ruins(no reward, just a guide)

    With Pen, I would prefer to see a solo instance of alapaa.
    Lilkueg 220/26/6x Opifex Shade
    Kuegen 211/11 Atrox Enforcer
    And Many More!

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuegen View Post
    Awesome ideas and points. I agree 99.9%

    The .01 is the mobs dropping parts. being able to kill scintillated spirits for the shards before you begin the quest is pretty neat. "Oh, you need me to kill THOSE? I've already killed tons! I probably have what you need." And in the case of teaming, a quest team would be expected to have farmed their parts ahead of time.
    Actually, I hadn't thought about it that way but you may be right. Still, if items have to drop off mobs for a quest, it'd be nice if there were at least a consistent drop rate - it sucks having to kill 7 entire spawns of something just to collect parts.

    I've noticed that many of the quest drops seem to cycle - you can kill 45 one day without a single drop, and the next day kill the same number and get 40 drops. It might need looking into.

  4. #4
    Make items that drop from quest NPCs a 100% drop. There's absolutely no need for me to kill hundreds of gray or green mobs while looking for a handful of items. All this does is waste time.
    Waiting for a cure.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Mostadio View Post
    Make items that drop from quest NPCs a 100% drop. There's absolutely no need for me to kill hundreds of gray or green mobs while looking for a handful of items. All this does is waste time.
    Seems nice, you know that quest in pen where you have to help the yuttos fix their glasses? Well the vortexoids use that older technology. My point is, how likely is it that EVERY disturbed vortexoid has BOTH parts needed for the glasses, and that none of them got damaged beyond use through combat?

    While it would be nice for quest items to be 100% drop, there are reasons for them not being so.
    Lilkueg 220/26/6x Opifex Shade
    Kuegen 211/11 Atrox Enforcer
    And Many More!

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuegen View Post
    Seems nice, you know that quest in pen where you have to help the yuttos fix their glasses? Well the vortexoids use that older technology. My point is, how likely is it that EVERY disturbed vortexoid has BOTH parts needed for the glasses, and that none of them got damaged beyond use through combat?

    While it would be nice for quest items to be 100% drop, there are reasons for them not being so.
    Could just make it 100% chance to drop a part, with the randomness being WHICH part. Sure, you'll still have the annoying times when you get 5 in a row of the one you don't need, but especially with the Inferno quests the droprates are horrible.

    I'm thinking of things like the Ashen Viper Eye - only a few mobs that even drop it, and it usually takes about 5 full repops to find one.

  7. #7
    imo one of the worst situations is doing the temple ruins.

    1st mob: tough
    2nd mob: very tough
    3rd mob: extremely tough... then adds that agg anyone sub 200 and instawipe them.

    Nice planning?

    No lie, it is not completable by anyone without 1 person in the team at 201+ who can finish the kill while others move out of the area.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lunarsolace
    This idea kills 2 forum trolls with one hamster.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Hotdog View Post
    imo one of the worst situations is doing the temple ruins.

    1st mob: tough
    2nd mob: very tough
    3rd mob: extremely tough... then adds that agg anyone sub 200 and instawipe them.

    Nice planning?

    No lie, it is not completable by anyone without 1 person in the team at 201+ who can finish the kill while others move out of the area.
    heh those mobs even have a -2000 evade debuff, rendering many professions damage mitigation useless. My shade was 212 when i *barely* soloed the trio.
    Lilkueg 220/26/6x Opifex Shade
    Kuegen 211/11 Atrox Enforcer
    And Many More!

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwifruits View Post
    Could just make it 100% chance to drop a part, with the randomness being WHICH part. Sure, you'll still have the annoying times when you get 5 in a row of the one you don't need, but especially with the Inferno quests the droprates are horrible.

    I'm thinking of things like the Ashen Viper Eye - only a few mobs that even drop it, and it usually takes about 5 full repops to find one.
    It works in some cases. But back to the vortexoids, Every one of them just happens to be carrying an outdated technology part? But yeah, droprates for quest lines in general just need to be looked at.
    Lilkueg 220/26/6x Opifex Shade
    Kuegen 211/11 Atrox Enforcer
    And Many More!

  10. #10
    Shameless self-bump

  11. #11
    I very much agree with all the points made above. I have always wondered why those quest mobs seem to be so much higher than any other quests. I know a few people who prefer to do quests on their own in between teams for other things, and these make it impossible to do so . The dryad is horrendously out of lvl range making it impossible to do without pulling a bored, or busy, and sometimes reluctant 220 in to get it done.

  12. #12
    It's not only these quests. Lets talk about progression quests, for example. I was 60 when I tried the progression from Ely to Scheol. I did it, solo, but this was on a kind of twinked doc, and only worked due to some OSBs which I had easily available (Lost mobs ...).

    One of the Ely Sanct key quests I did on my own, too, in suicide assassin style, and the last mob took a few tries before I had it worked out (kill fast enough before getting killed ...).

    The Scheol garden key quest was kind of tricky, too, and I only did the redeemed one so far, because the unredeemed requires a PB kill. Scheol Sanct keys? Sure, at what level can you mitigate the received damage from all the adds you have to mess with? Suicide mission style ...

    But the real killer came with the progression quest to Ado. The heal delta on these Undead Engineers is just impossible as a doc, not to talk about the hordes of mobs you have to waltz through to get to Ergo. That was the first time where I was really wondering about the reasoning behind the design of these quests.

    Now, if you somehow managed to pull that off, you are standing in Ado, without this Metawater suit (because you get it only from Ergo if you are 130+). Now, as a doc I could have done the first Ado brain mission, which yields some insignias (doc HoT keeps you alive enough to counter the DoT from the metawater), but not everyone is a doc. Fortunately, I had help there, killing sided mobs outside with a Stray Dog on the loose is double fun and solo more or less impossible unless you are super careful and somehow have a big damage potential at hand to kill one mob fast enough.

    Without a metawater suit you may get around in Ado, but sometimes you have to be in the water and the DoT is really lowering your survivability. Getting that suit requires you to run around in Ado and effectively kill that Stray Dog (btw. a quest not listed at ao-universe), which felt like Lost mob reloaded with a 1000% difficulty increase. At level 125 you stand no chance.

    I haven't made it beyond Ado, yet, but from what I read and experienced so far the difficulty level just increased much much faster than the strength of my character. More and more these quests go even beyond the possibilities of a proper team, which makes me wonder why they got designed that way in the first place.

  13. #13
    I've said it before and I'll say it again: SL was designed by people who didn't think any farther into the future than the immediate post-release situation, where hordes of people would be moving through the zones and teams would be plentiful.
    I am wiser than any god or scientist, for I have squared the circle and cubed Earth's sphere, thus I have created 4 simultaneous separate 24 hour days within a 4-corner (as in a 4-corner classroom) rotation of Earth. See for yourself the absolute proof.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by drainbamage View Post
    I've said it before and I'll say it again: SL was designed by people who didn't think any farther into the future than the immediate post-release situation, where hordes of people would be moving through the zones and teams would be plentiful.
    But if teams never become pleantiful again, then any fixes are in vein. Whether you can solo the dryad or need to bring in a 220 from your org to help, the game won't be fun without a healthy population. FC accepting a low population and making things so easy because people don't have anyone left in their friends list doesn't make the game's future look bright.

    Get more people to play, don't adapt the game to become single player.

    (I'm not saying some bosses are or aren't op.. not trying to debump you, just a little ranting sorry ;p)

    But I do think droprates on quest items could go up some.. if anything that encourages team play because there will actually be enough to go around, instead of sitting there for 7 spawns.
    Last edited by Seoin; Feb 9th, 2012 at 15:05:19.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Seoin View Post
    But if teams never become pleantiful again, then any fixes are in vein. Whether you can solo the dryad or need to bring in a 220 from your org to help, the game won't be fun without a healthy population. FC accepting a low population and making things so easy because people don't have anyone left in their friends list doesn't make the game's future look bright.

    Get more people to play, don't adapt the game to become single player.
    I get what you're saying but here's the thing: even in games that are still going strong, over time the population density shifts heavily towards the late game. MMO design must take this into account somehow or you wind up with a lot of frustrated new players. And frustrated new players quickly become former subscribers.
    I am wiser than any god or scientist, for I have squared the circle and cubed Earth's sphere, thus I have created 4 simultaneous separate 24 hour days within a 4-corner (as in a 4-corner classroom) rotation of Earth. See for yourself the absolute proof.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Sferyl View Post
    ...
    Wow, im surprised you could solo level 140ish SL mobs on a level 60 doc, with a 500~ point dot. Impressive
    Lilkueg 220/26/6x Opifex Shade
    Kuegen 211/11 Atrox Enforcer
    And Many More!

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuegen View Post
    Wow, im surprised you could solo level 140ish SL mobs on a level 60 doc, with a 500~ point dot. Impressive
    If it read that way, then sorry, no I reached Ado at 125 (with outside help). I've tested the metawater without suit and the HoT was able to cover up most of the DoT, so normal heals can cover additional damage. This also means you have to be very careful of these kizzer things, because they drain your nanoskills and then your healing (and damage) output gets lowered a great deal (down to the point where your healing cannot counter the summed up damage, aka stinger fishies are ok, kizzers are likely to kill you without a metawater suit).

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuegen View Post
    Seems nice, you know that quest in pen where you have to help the yuttos fix their glasses? Well the vortexoids use that older technology. My point is, how likely is it that EVERY disturbed vortexoid has BOTH parts needed for the glasses, and that none of them got damaged beyond use through combat?

    While it would be nice for quest items to be 100% drop, there are reasons for them not being so.
    Dood, I get a new body every time I fall down into a spinning propeller. Including all my phat items I stole from the body of a giant spider-octopus thing in a metaphysical alternate dimension. Don't give me that "damaged in combat bullcrap"
    Waiting for a cure.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Mostadio View Post
    Dood, I get a new body every time I fall down into a spinning propeller. Including all my phat items I stole from the body of a giant spider-octopus thing in a metaphysical alternate dimension. Don't give me that "damaged in combat bullcrap"
    A wizard nanotechnician did it
    I am wiser than any god or scientist, for I have squared the circle and cubed Earth's sphere, thus I have created 4 simultaneous separate 24 hour days within a 4-corner (as in a 4-corner classroom) rotation of Earth. See for yourself the absolute proof.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Sferyl View Post
    If it read that way, then sorry, no I reached Ado at 125 (with outside help). I've tested the metawater without suit and the HoT was able to cover up most of the DoT, so normal heals can cover additional damage. This also means you have to be very careful of these kizzer things, because they drain your nanoskills and then your healing (and damage) output gets lowered a great deal (down to the point where your healing cannot counter the summed up damage, aka stinger fishies are ok, kizzers are likely to kill you without a metawater suit).
    Ohh okay, haha. That makes me feel a little better about myself

    Quote Originally Posted by Mostadio View Post
    Dood, I get a new body every time I fall down into a spinning propeller. Including all my phat items I stole from the body of a giant spider-octopus thing in a metaphysical alternate dimension. Don't give me that "damaged in combat bullcrap"
    fair enough
    Lilkueg 220/26/6x Opifex Shade
    Kuegen 211/11 Atrox Enforcer
    And Many More!

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