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Thread: New Fixer Weapons - Damage Comparisons

  1. #1

    New Fixer Weapons - Damage Comparisons

    With the upcoming SMG's in the 15.5 patch I figured it would be worthwhile to do a damage comparison of the new SMG’s with some of the most commonly used SMG’s available today.

    Common stats (Approximate for a Title Level 6 fixer):
    Attack skill: 1200
    Burst skill: 800
    Skill lock modifier: -4 (left hand QL 150 symbiant)
    Combat duration: 60 seconds
    Damage modifiers: Zero
    Base ranged init: 750
    Ranged init with fast guns: 470 (using QL 205 scope for +6% crit chance)
    Ranged init with slow guns: 930 (using TIM scope for +1% crit chance)

    Blinded Blackbird (dual wielded) vs Zero AC opponent
    Primary hand damage: 20 reg shots @ 988 damage, 8 bursts @ 2718 damage
    Off hand damage: 20 reg shots @ 988 damage
    Total damage: 61264 points @ 50% agg

    Blinded Blackbird (dual wielded) vs Unlimited AC opponent
    Primary hand damage: 20 reg shots @ 296 damage, 8 bursts @ 816 damage
    Off hand damage: 20 reg shots @ 296 damage
    Total damage: 18368 points @ 50% agg

    Superior Perennium Beamer vs Zero AC opponent
    Primary hand damage: 30 reg shots @ 1177 damage, 6 bursts @ 3264 damage
    Total damage: 54894 points @ 50% agg

    Superior Perennium Beamer vs Unlimited AC opponent
    Primary hand damage: 30 reg shots @ 683 damage, 6 bursts @ 1902 damage
    Total damage: 31902 points @ 50% agg

    Syndicate Messenger Gun vs Zero AC opponent
    Primary hand damage: 30 reg shots @ 1151 damage, 8 bursts @ 2856 damage
    Total damage: 57378 points @ 50% agg

    Syndicate Messenger Gun vs Unlimited AC opponent
    Primary hand damage: 30 reg shots @ 904 damage, 8 bursts @ 2175 damage
    Total damage: 44520 points @ 50% agg

    Manex Catastrophe December vs Zero AC opponent
    Primary hand damage: 22 reg shots @ 1430 damage, 1 bursts @ 4083 damage
    Total damage: 35543 points @ full agg

    Manex Catastrophe December vs Unlimited AC opponent
    Primary hand damage: 22 reg shots @ 18 damage, 1 bursts @ 12 damage
    Total damage: 408 points @ full agg

    Illicit Laser Backup (dual wielded) vs Zero AC opponent
    Primary hand damage: 17 reg shots @ 881 damage, 8 bursts @ 2421 damage
    Off hand damage: 17 reg shots @ 881 damage
    Total damage: 49322 points @ full agg

    Illicit Laser Backup (dual wielded) vs Unlimited AC opponent
    Primary hand damage: 17 reg shots @ 46 damage, 8 bursts @ 12 damage
    Off hand damage: 17 reg shots @ 46 damage
    Total damage: 1660 points @ full agg

    Jake QL 240 (dual wielded) vs Zero AC opponent
    Primary hand damage: 10 reg shots @ 1214 damage, 1 burst @ 3501 damage
    Off hand damage: 10 reg shots @ 1214 damage
    Total damage: 27781 points @ full agg

    Jake QL 240 (dual wielded) vs Unlimited AC opponent
    Primary hand damage: 10 reg shots @ 528 damage, 1 burst @ 1524 damage
    Off hand damage: 10 reg shots @ 528 damage
    Total damage: 12084 points @ full agg

    City Blaster QL 210 vs Zero AC opponent
    Primary hand damage: 30 reg shots @ 978 damage, 8 bursts @ 2691 damage
    Total damage: 50868 points @ 75% agg

    City Blaster QL 210 vs Unlimited AC opponent
    Primary hand damage: 30 reg shots @ 209 damage, 8 bursts @ 576 damage
    Total damage: 10878 points @ 75% agg

    A few observations based on the above figures:
    - Both the Blackbird and the Perennium Beamer are pretty darn nice weapons :-)
    - Vs low AC mobs Dualing Blackbirds are slightly better than the Perennium (unless you have very good skill lock reduction items and a very high burst skill, in which case they will be pretty much equally good)
    - Vs high AC mobs the Perennium is better than Dualing Blackbirds
    - Syndicate Messenger Gun is still the best SMG around – even more so if you can get your crit chance up :-)
    - Manex is clearly inferior to the new SMG’s, in pretty much every way.

    Edit : Added Jake and City Blaster to the comparisson.

    Techno mumbo jumbo for the above calculations (in case anyone wonders): Burst recycle is capped at 8 seconds. Base crit chance is 3%. Damage is calculated using ¼ the regular effect over 1k attack rating. A regular shot is an average incorporating damage from critical hits. A burst is 3 bullets at average damage, but with no crit chance. Higher attack ratings will produce more crits, favouring weapons with good crit modifiers such as the SMG and the ILB. Attack rating for the Illicit Laser Backup is set to 1000, accounting for lower pistol skill. Dual wielding a gun provides 33% more shots, with each hand doing 50% of the shots. Reload times are taking into account where applicable (ILB’s). Add damage effects are left out of the calculations for simplicity. If you want to calculate add damage effects multiply your add damage value by the following numbers, and add the result to total damage: BB x72, SPB x54, SMG x62, Manex x25, ILB x66, Jake x23, CB x54. Add damage effects thus does not change the relative performance of the guns much: the good gets better and the bad gets worse.
    Last edited by Zura; May 11th, 2004 at 07:36:52.
    Zura
    Fixer of Rubi-Ka 1
    Me - Stuff

  2. #2
    hmm
    Last edited by Vega2; Mar 12th, 2004 at 12:51:38.
    vega2 RK2 fixer 213/13
    Unit Member of Genesis


  3. #3
    :-)

    Ranged init with fast guns: 470 (using QL 205 scope for +6% crit chance)
    Ranged init with slow guns: 930 (using TIM scope for +1% crit chance)

    I did considered upping the ranged init more. But I concluded it was no point to even try to tweak every little value to the max. 750 base init seemed like a nice round value
    Zura
    Fixer of Rubi-Ka 1
    Me - Stuff

  4. #4
    the biggest difference imho is that I can go 1/1 @full def with the new guns

    the new guns really don't merit using a crit scope, but the +range % is good.
    Auri Sacra Fames!

    Specialone Clan Fixer RK-2
    Spatialone Clan Bureaucrat RK-2

  5. #5
    How did you figure total damage duel-wielding? I think you're calculations might be wrong. You don't double damage for duel wielding.

  6. #6
    Good effort, however, D-Day is right and you have some errors. When Dual-Wielding you don't get 20 attacks per minute with both guns. When Dual-Wielding you get 33% more base damage if both weapons are the same and both are at a speed of 1/1 So what you do is, calculate the damage for 1 weapon over time. Then multiply the base damage (base damage does not include any kind of specials) by 33%. Last, add this calculated number to the total damage dealt by the first weapon. So for me at lvl 195 it'd look more like this with a final damage of 65,660 with no damage mods against no AC's.

    Simply from comparing base damages the new order of weaponry against high acs will be as follows IMO:

    Syndicate Messenger gun
    Perennium Beamer
    Dual Blackbirds
    City Blaster
    Manex
    Dual Illicits

    The Blackbirds are basically dual-wielding ql 200ish City Blasters with a better Base Damage and faster speed. For anything but high AC mobs they will do exceptionally well and I just like the style. Of course, for raids/SL a Perennium Beamer will be needed in order to be effective.

    As of now, and if most of the speculation is close to beign correct, the tradeskill process for making a perennium beamer won't be difficult, depending on how FC implaments the 15.5 tradeskill item, the spirit tech muzzle (or something close to that).

    And if the Droprate isn't absurd for such a low weapon, and the dungeon isn't lvl locked, the Blackbirds will be easy to get if only require some ODing of other players also camping them. They drop off lvl 70ish Mobs.

    Just one man's opinion -Gigas
    Rookie Kwisatz "Wierding" Haderach - Gear - In Progress - May the best man rule my Empire
    Apprentice Antlered "Icegigas" King - Gear - Finished - I would rather die today, a hero, than tomorrow, forgotten
    Karmic "Zengigas" Force - Gear - In Progress - Only the enlightened will reach eternity
    We are Legion - As Alexander looked upon his Empire, he wept, for there were no more worlds to conquer
    Old Man Gigas' Guide to Twinking v. 2.0
    R.I.P. - Littleslayar & Frostgigas
    WTB Phatz

  7. #7
    I think she's done the timing calculations the right way, ie Attack-Right + Attack-Left + Recharge-Both for dual guns and the normal Attack + Recharge cycle for single guns.
    Actually pretty good layout to show it instead of first giving the numbers (for example) a single ILB then adding a set % of base damage beacuse of dual-wielding.
    Btw did you remember to calculate the loading times for ILBs? Is that why you're only counting 17 shots in a 60 second period?
    Then there is the unknown factor of attack animations screwing up our nice calculations.
    May your RD always kick in between death and reclaim.
    Honest Businessmen and women: The Mockers
    I eat Grid Armor nanos. *BURP* Hungry again!
    Power Users run Anarchy Online from Linux.

  8. #8
    Thanks Kaghelion:-) And yeah, Im pretty sure the attacks pr minute are correct (or very close anyway). ILB's do 17 shots on each gun, since A) they need to be reloaded and B) 930 ranged init is not quite enough to get em to 1/1 even at full agg.

    Old Man Gigas, Your add 33% method works as well, assuming the guns are exactly the same. However, I've found it more convenient to calculate each gun seperately, then add the results together. Kinda easier to keep track of things if guns are of different QL's or they have diffrent specials (anyone remember the Premium Light Supressor / Revolving Cold Laser combo?). Also, you can't use Jaydes damage calculator for attack ratings over 1k : it does not take into account reduced damage past the 1k mark (Up to 1K its flawless for single wielded weapons tho afaik).
    Last edited by Zura; May 10th, 2004 at 16:11:35.
    Zura
    Fixer of Rubi-Ka 1
    Me - Stuff

  9. #9
    Animations schmations. This issue has haunted the boards ever since launch (probably in beta too, but don't remember it from there).

    Your _CLIENT_ syncs server side sent "hits" into "animations". _Note_, your _client_ syncs _already happened server side hits_. Your client also runs its normal attack routine animations, so usually it just gives the dam msg "right", but sometimes your animation is so bad "out of sync" that it witholds the info about hitting the mob.

    Ever play with two chars sidebyside? I have, all my time on AO, with my gf. And I've never, ever, seen a stopping of hit messages on the _other_ computer. Other people's hits are reported, and animations thrown in. But your own animations are synced by the _client_ to the hits (by witholding the hit msg until your animation sequence is in sync).

    So people keep believing your attack animation can stop you from "shooting". The animation is problematic only for nano usage, where client validates nano usage possibility from its own data before asking the server whether it can run the nano. But weapons fire away on the server according to the server calculations.

  10. #10
    Er yea my bad Zura, I just woke up so for some reason I didn't see your estimated 20 attacks per gun as the same as my estimated 40 attacks =P It just wasn't clicking. Anyways so yea, different way of calculating it I guess, but I just prefer te 33%, although yours might be better for non-equivalent weapons. And also I always forget to calculate reduced AR effectiveness above 1k. Anyways, I still like the Blackbirds the best regardless of their inferiority to the SMG and Beamer -Gigas
    Rookie Kwisatz "Wierding" Haderach - Gear - In Progress - May the best man rule my Empire
    Apprentice Antlered "Icegigas" King - Gear - Finished - I would rather die today, a hero, than tomorrow, forgotten
    Karmic "Zengigas" Force - Gear - In Progress - Only the enlightened will reach eternity
    We are Legion - As Alexander looked upon his Empire, he wept, for there were no more worlds to conquer
    Old Man Gigas' Guide to Twinking v. 2.0
    R.I.P. - Littleslayar & Frostgigas
    WTB Phatz

  11. #11
    The one good thing I'll say is (yes, I can actually say something nice about FC, they haven't made me COMPLETELY cynical yet) is that we finally have REAL choices!

    There is no one best gun now. Two or three are all "best" depending upon situations now. And even if you're comparing just one given scenario, the variance in performance of these new guns makes a few of them nearly as viable, if not as good, as the "best" one.

    Well, one issue down, lets hope the wax remains out of FC's collective ears and the rest get taken care of soon!

  12. #12
    This is the way guns should work. People should be arguing about them based on their different factors. This is a huge step away from the cookie cutter style and I like it.
    idddthdidnkddmdyddddddkedyisddddstdudcddk

    Damage is king. Speed kills. Style is everything.

  13. #13
    I have to say I'm quite happy with these new weapons.
    Is being the first 220 Soldier with green hair as arbitrary as being the first soli/opi/atrox/mage 220 soldier? I sure hope so.

    "If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stomping on a human face forever." -George Orwell

    Killer 100% - Achiever 60% - Socializer 20% - Explorer 20%

  14. #14

    new weapons

    hi all

    as a new fixer i must say im excited about the new weapons shame the perinium blaster is pig ugly but what the hell.

    I will be really happy about them when they drop in a range of ql's that a fixer can actaully get at a time the guns will be usefull.

    me cynical never!!

  15. #15
    the conflagrant syndicate messenger still pwnz imo. im shooting 1/1 on full def with a ql 250 VE in and my burst recycle is down to 6 sec self ( -16 skill lock from symbs ). dchest, SWS mk 9 and 2 4-gem-arul sabas do a nice add to my dmg output.

    i was in team with another fixer wielding a ql 240 smg. at lvl 205 she was as much dmg as an enf with gelids vs inferno hecklers and she doesnt even have dchest or arul-sabas, only SWS mk 5.

    the new guns look nice, but "teh smg" stills is the most viable option in the high end game/playfields imo.

    acutally it rocks in pvp too. finally we r able to throw in our DD-perks, which makes a nice alpha added to burst.

    tops
    GOD SAVE THE POWDER!!

    Topspeeder Level 220/12 Fixer Current Gear

    Bloodsoaker Level 220/21 Shade Current Gear <<< First 220 Atrox Shade on Rimor >>>

    Board Member of HUGE, inc.

  16. #16
    Duh the SMG is still the best. It's hard to get and helluva good. These new ones like good but easy to get. Some actual smart balancing from FC!
    idddthdidnkddmdyddddddkedyisddddstdudcddk

    Damage is king. Speed kills. Style is everything.

  17. #17
    Originally posted by Kukka
    Animations schmations. This issue has haunted the boards ever since launch (probably in beta too, but don't remember it from there).
    Personally I think FC does some minor adjustments just to keep us on our toes.
    Just like they have a staff of little gnomes spinning the wheel to decide what loot you're going to get. "Let's see here. Hmm 8 MA-suit, manex, Div 9 or GA MkIV. Oh wait this fellah had a lucky roll back in 1998, then it's the MA-suits for him. Hey Fred! We should stick a Nodrop on these MA-suits just to annoy them some more."

    Oh, and for those that think that the syndicate messenger gun is going to be the best high-end fixer gun... Don't forget the Lord/Lady of Envy. Now there is some really good raid loot.
    May your RD always kick in between death and reclaim.
    Honest Businessmen and women: The Mockers
    I eat Grid Armor nanos. *BURP* Hungry again!
    Power Users run Anarchy Online from Linux.

  18. #18
    A shameless self buff to this thread. With the new Blackbird Craze Sweeping the land, someone might find this weapon comparisson usefull

    And btw: grats to all new Blackbird owners - cool gun!
    Zura
    Fixer of Rubi-Ka 1
    Me - Stuff

  19. #19
    Aye this is a very useful theard, bump for more viewage

  20. #20
    Odd dmg you got on the manex though. my stats are about the same at lvl 200..and I got hella lot more dmg with a manex than what you showed "aganst a unlimited ac opponent"

    Im thinking your eluding heckler type acs for the unlim ac mobs

    WIthout any dmg mod items..I usually got about 650 dmg a shot on average aganst such mobs (stole aggro allot with bursts at times).

    Still not a good weapon though...but so many fixers at that level have one that its at least something to use.

    (illicits just plain blow ass aganst a heckler...I usually got 40 dmg shot with them.....sad)
    Metalynx: 216..... 4 more levels and the server will shut down!

    Metalynx: "I seriously hope all the stupid people in the world don't congrigate in one spot, for all the weight of this massive amount of raw idiodicy, might collapse upon itself, creating a Singularity of Ignorant Stupidity, unmatched in strength by any black hole in the universe"

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