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Thread: Keeper Weaponry, and the underlying problems with Shadowlands weaponry - Part I

  1. #1

    Lightbulb Keeper Weaponry, and the underlying problems with Shadowlands weaponry

    Keeper Weaponry, and the underlying problems with Shadowlands weaponry Part I

    Well, I'm sure you've all ready Balrog's Guide to Keeper Weapons and Armor. Quite a thorough guide it is, and offers some good guidance for those who need help with their keepers.

    The purpose of this series of posts is different than that guide. While I will be discussing specific weaponry and my perception of their usefulness, I will also be challenging some of the underlying gameplay elements of Shadowlands, and putting on the table the things I would like to see different both with specific keeper weaponry, and Shadowlands weapons in general. I think this post was spurned by my seeing the results of keeper needs with weaponry being at the very top. Perhaps I have some small sliver of hope that things may be addressed if they are discussed more, even if it does require major programming to fix.

    If you are just interested more in my specific takes on weapons strengths and weaknesses, scroll down to Part II... Though personally I find this read pretty important.

    Let's start off with a little history. The keeper is a relatively new class to Anarchy Online. When Anarchy Online was first released, Shadowlands did not exist, nor did the keeper. An expansion pack was then released 'Notum Wars,' which focused more on PvP. Keepers and Shadowlands were still not in the game, and a large base of weaponry was created and continued to expand for classes in game.

    Over this time, people played AO and obtained weaponry a certain way. Then Shadowlands came out and everything changed. While it was a cool change of pace, I believe there are some fundamental flaws.

    Let's first look at how you obtain "unique" or "uber" gear and weaponry on Rubika. I will go from the perspective of a Keeper since that is the forum we are in.


    Example 1 RubiKa Level 0-125:
    For the first few title levels, you get the majority of the cool stuff from The Temple of Three Winds dungeon (which also is relatively new, but still follows the rubika theme). Most of the best weapons and items drop off enemies that are difficult to kill, require teamwork, or some skill to take down. In other words, you just can't run up, hit attack, and watch the enemy fall then collect your uber loot. Take the Stygian Desolator. For those keepers who didn't "buy" it, how satisfying was it for you when you saw Aztur hit the floor with a resounding thud? I know it felt pretty good to me. It felt even better when I was able to be rewarded for my effort with a nice item. It was a challenge, and one that was met with reward once conquered. Then there were other items like the Guardian Tank Armor. While not worth it for those who don't plan to be lvl60 twinks forever, killing the Guardian of Tomorrow was still relatively fun. Though camping was required, odds are after 10-20 kills you would get your tank armor. And, during those kills all your team members and many people passing by would be able to pick up cool new NCU belts that were much better than anything else you could equip at the time. In other words, it was worth it for other people to kill the beast so they could get a nice belt, and it gave you some sense of accomplishment not just to be able to kill the beast, but also to be able to provide others with 'uber' loot. Another example is Lien the memorystalker. Challenging to kill, but rewarded the player in the end.

    Example 2 Level 125-200:
    Everyone within this level range has probably either seen Azure/otaf/etc armor, or has some of it. In order to get Azure, you have to camp a bit and kill some mobs that aren't too tough. If you stick it out and OTA spawns, you will be able to trade in your note and spawn mercs. If a single player, or even a single team of player then goes up and tries to kill mercs by themselves for Azure armor, they will likely be seeing reclaim faster than you could blink. In order to kill them and get the opportunity to get their armor, you have to have a relatively skilled puller take them out one at a time, then have multiple groups of properly setup teams in order to take them down. It takes some work, but in the end someone is going home with Azure.
    Now lets look at Inner Sanctum. Another relatively new dungeon, and one that has some nice drops. Killing the 2nd floor and 3rd floor bosses requires teamwork and skill. If you go into IS with no gameplan, you will likely be exiting just as quickly as you entered. Yet, if you do coordinate things and everyone knows their role and is sufficiently prepared, you will likely come out with some good stuff. If you really think things through and have an effective strategy, you can come out with some of the best stuff.

    Now lets look at Shadowlands.

    First example, the soldier's JAME blaster. How is this blaster obtained? For such a highly sought after item, you would think that going by the way AO has worked over the years and the way that 'uber' loot is obtained on Rubi-Ka, that some big bad boss must drop this sucker. Nope. The JAME blaster can be obtained by a single level 190 Soldier just as easily as three fully decked out 220 teams. The only difference is that the 190 Solider is going to probably be outdamaged and KS'd, leading him to leave and go home in frustration. JAME is acquired by camping a mob that can easily be soloed by a TL6, or even TL5 player. There is no skill in acquiring JAME. The reason it sells for so much is because the chances of it dropping are slim to none. And this is where Shadowlands and Ruki-Ka diverge. While Rubi-Ka had many rare drops, there were many drops that were only-semi rare, and just required a little bit of camping to acquire. And, when an item that dropped was really rare, usually there was some other good stuff that dropped along with it so the members of your team would feel rewarded after killing the same creature repeatedly. Not so with JAME. 99% of the time you kill the mob that drops JAME, it drops junk. It requires no skill to kill this mob, except the ability to stay awake from boredom sitting in the same place killing a joke mob that drops nothing most of the time. Few will want to stick with you for long periods of time, too, as there is little incentive in the form of a challenging battle that requires skill, nor is there any incentive in terms of getting at least some decent loot. So the soldier is forced to sit there often for weeks on end camping a mob that he could have killed 20 levels ago with ease, praying that the gods of the loot table will roll up a JAME for him. And when he does get it, he will be happy. But he won't have that feeling the keeper did when he took down Aztur, or the feeling your team did when Ian Warr bit the dust. Will he be happy then, or just relieved that his ordeal is over and he can continue the game ungimped? If there was some challenge in killing the boss *and* if it dropped something decent on a somewhat consistent basis maybe then the soldier would be truly 'happy.'

    This is the fundamental flaw of Shadowlands in my opinion, and the pain that many keepers are experiencing. There is no challenge in obtaining the weapons, except your will to sit there and endure being bored to tears camping grey or green mobs that require little to no skill to kill, being at the mercy of the loot table day after day. And the fact that most keeper-specific weapons are Shadowlands weapons simply makes it worse for keepers.

    It would be nice if something like high QL Jobe Defenders or Excaliburs dropped off a big-bad-boss that required skill and teamwork to kill, had a relatively high droprate, and dropped other stuff that other team members can use. Unfortunately it doesn't work that way. Jobe Defender drops off redeemed mobs with a loot table bigger than rubi-ka itself, filled with lots of junk you and your teammates will laugh at, while Excalibur likely drops off some obscure Inferno dynaboss that drops nothing useful at all except excalibur maybe 1% of the time. For jobe defender - So you either have to camp camp camp easy to kill mobs until you get a good ql jobe defender solo, which could take days (or even weeks), or you have to start/join a spec4 team (odds are you will have spec4 done before you get a high QL jobe defender), or you have to get together a Pandemonium team and try your luck there where the droprate is still as poor, but at least if it does drop you will likely get a nice QL. For excalibur, it's even worse - if it does drop off some inferno dynaboss that drops nothing but perhaps pattern pieces and excalibur and has no other useful loot, do you really think you are going to be able to get a team there to kill it time and time again, camping it with little to no drops? For a weapon that only you can use? It might not be so bad if it dropped off a boss that you could solo or even duo, but since it hasn't been found yet it probably drops off a pretty high level mob that requires a team.

    What we need for Shadowlands are more big-bosses that have more consistent drops, instead of mini-bosses with abyssmal drops. We also need smaller loot tables that are perhaps tailored to certain enemies. Maybe only certain type of redeemed mobs drop guns, while others only drop melee weapons, etc... At least then you would have a greater chance of obtaining an item that might be useful to you or someone in your team, because you'll have a general idea of the type of item that will drop. We need more bosses that require skill and a team to kill, bosses that drop useful stuff on a consistent basis.
    Last edited by Ruined; Mar 27th, 2004 at 01:02:03.
    We're all in it together.

    Mindful - Keeper
    Abscess - NT

  2. #2
    Keeper Weaponry, and the underlying problems with Shadowlands weaponry Part II

    This part will focus on a weapon-by-weapon analysis of the most popular keeper weapons. These critiques are made with TL6/TL7 players in mind, and QLs are indicative of stuff you can find between Adonis and Inferno.

    Key:
    RKn - RubiKa at 3/4 aggdef
    RKd - Rubika at fulldef
    SLn - SL at 3/4 aggdef
    SLd - Shadowlands at fulldef

    Abyssal Desecrator
    http://www.aodb.info/showitem.asp?AOID=206058
    Almost identical to Permafrost in damage spread, one of the top Rubi-Ka keeper weapons available currently. It's minimum damage cannot compete with FBR's however, so you may find yourself using this weapon much less in Shadowlands due to overly high Shadowlands mob ACs.
    Scores:
    RKn - A
    RKd - B
    SLn - C
    SLd - C-
    Summary - Overall great weapon. Hampered by high Shadowland ACs.
    Improvements - Reduce fast attack recharge.

    Copy of The Excalibur
    http://www.aodb.info/showitem.asp?AOID=246018
    Based on the stats for this highly-anticipated weapon, it will be an impressive weapon for Rubi-ka, but will likely be mediocre in Shadowlands. With the highest QL having only 200 min dmg, melee AC, and no specials, it is hard to imagine that this weapon will excel in shadowlands
    Scores (by stats only):
    RKn - A
    RKd - A
    SLn - C-
    SLd - C-
    Summary - Impressive RK weapon. Not so hot looking for SL.
    Improvements - Add fast attack.

    Frost-Bound Reaper
    http://www.aodb.info/showitem.asp?AOID=206061
    The most commonly used keeper weapon, and one of the best. Unfortunately, this weapon only truly shines once you are TL6+ and have enough init to make it swing 1/1 at 3/4, and even then it will be quite slow when at full def. A good offensive weapon, but poor for soloing and when at full def. Nice for SK as it requires little button mashing for high damage output.
    Scores:
    RKn - B
    RKd - F
    SLn - A-
    SLd - F
    Summary - Good overall offensive weapons.
    Improvements: None, seems good.


    Inamorata Enel-Thar Naginata (clan: Sancrosanct) QL235
    http://www.aodb.info/showitem.asp?Lo...=212638&QL=235
    This weapon is somewhat difficult to find, but not the back breaker of some of the other Shadowlands weapons (Jobe Defender, Excalibur). Different than most other keeper weapons in that it has both fast attack and brawl. This gives it a nice niche for soloing and when you are debuffed. However, attack/recharge is a bit slow. Yet, due to this weapons multiple specials and the fact that its not too hard to find, I think its pretty much on-target.
    Scores:
    RKn - B-
    RKd - C
    SLn - B
    SLd - B-
    Summary: Overall, a pretty decent weapon that is hampered by a long attack/recharge time.
    Improvements: None, seems okay.

    Maiden Naginata (clan: Double Blade) QL235
    http://www.aodb.info/showitem.asp?Lo...=214351&QL=235
    This is the turn spirit-upgraded version of the Inamorata Enel-Thar Naginata. Unfortunately, the upgraded weapon is for the most part worse than the standard version. While the max damage is increased, the min dmg stays the same and a special is removed. This means though you will be doing more damage in Rubi-Ka, you will be doing significantly less in Shadowlands. Plus, unless you have a very high QL (250+) of this upgraded weapon, weapons like Permafrost and Abyssal Desecrator will likely outdamage it in Rubi-Ka as well. Therefore, this weapon loses the niche status of the Inamorata Enel-Thar, and in the end isn't all that useful. A turn-spirit upgraded weapon should be better than this, and shouldn't suffer from the slow attack recharge times of the Inamorata.
    Scores:
    RKn - A-
    RKd - C+
    SLn - C
    SLd - D
    Summary: Not as good as the Inamorata
    Improvements: Cut fast attack recharge time to make up for the loss of brawl, and lower attack/recharge times.

    Jobe Defender Naginata QL220
    http://www.aodb.info/showitem.asp?QL...16&HiID=231217
    Most would agree that this is probably the best overall keeper weapon in the game. Great attack/recharge speeds, nice minimum damage when combined with speedy fast attack recharge. Overall, quite nice. Could be a pain to find one, though.
    Scores:
    RKn - A
    RKd - A
    SLn - A
    SLd - A
    Summary: Great.
    Improvements: None.

    Permafrost
    http://www.aodb.info/showitem.asp?AOID=206062
    Strangely, this weapon would be much more useful to TL4/TL5 players than its brother Frost-Bound Reaper as it doesn't require nearly as much init to make it swing fast. Yet it is much harder to get, dropping off a third floor IS boss instead of a second floor IS boss. Overall, its a better weapon than FBR, though, so that does make sense. Good overall damage, with a root process as well. Fast attack recharge is a bit long though. Similar to Abyssal Desecrator in stats.
    Scores:
    RKn - A
    RKd - B
    SLn - C
    SLd - C-
    Summary: Overall great weapon. Hampered by high Shadowland ACs.
    Improvements: Reduce fast attack recharge.

    Sword of Achilles/Hercules/Perseus
    http://www.aodb.info/showitem.asp?AOID=233281
    Will lump these together since they are all pretty much the same save the type of damage they do. In essence, if you cut the requirements in half, they might be usable on both Rubika and Shadowlands as a decent weapon. As it stands, they are far too underpowered both in min dmg and max dmg to be considered as a usable weapon with the requirements needed, no matter the QL.
    Scores:
    RKn - D
    RKd - D
    SLn - D
    SLd - D
    Summary: Pretty bad all around
    Improvements: Cut requirements a whole lot, or up both the min/max dmg on this wep.

    Sword of the Illuminated
    http://www.aodb.info/showitem.asp?AOID=245580
    Overall, this would be a decent weapon for Rubi Ka... If it dropped from a hard mob in Schoel with consistency. For Shadowlands, its terrible with its minimum damage due to high shadowlands mob ACs. One is left wondering, what they were thinking when they made this an extremely rare drop in Adonis in an area you have to be TL6 to actually camp the weapon and obtain it. Hence it becomes a TL6 weapon no TL6er would ever use regularly.
    Scores:
    RKn - C
    RKd - C
    SLn - F
    SLd - F
    Summary: Would be a nice weapon for a TL4 player. Unfortunately it drops too rarely and too late in the game for TL4 to actually obtain this weapon. So at this point its relatively useless for those who can actually get it - TL6/7. Suffers due to high SL mobs ACs.
    Improvements: Make it drop in Elysium and Schoel and more frequently.

    Sword of Sir Tristram QL235
    http://www.aodb.info/showitem.asp?Lo...=231136&QL=235
    Relatively similar to Sword of the Illuminated damage wise. Has similar problems in Shadowlands of having too low min dmg. Okay for Rubi-Ka.
    Scores:
    RKn - C-
    RKd - C-
    SLn - F
    SLd - F
    Summary: Would be a nice weapon for a TL4 player. Suffers due to high SL mobs ACs
    Improvements: Raise min dmg.
    Last edited by Ruined; Mar 26th, 2004 at 18:40:27.
    We're all in it together.

    Mindful - Keeper
    Abscess - NT

  3. #3
    Keeper Weaponry, and the underlying problems with Shadowlands weaponry Part III

    Final words...

    Out of all the above weapons, only one weapon scored an overall A in Shadowlands, and many recevied Ds and Fs. While our lineup is relatively effective in Rubi-Ka, the high ACs of Shadowlands mobs reduces relatively impressive damage spreads of some weapons to minimum damage, making them far less powerful.

    Conclusion:
    I) The way weapons drop should be altered as outlined in part I, to make finding Shadowlands weapons less tedious, more satisfying, and more inline with the AO everyone had grown to like. First, more difficult bosses that have significantly higher droprates on top notch weaponry are needed - bosses that are actually fun to kill and reward you for the effort. Second, sided mobs should have their loot tables divided up between them so that the loot table isn't so huge - so that a player has a better chance of obtaining the weapon they want.

    II) More effective weapons for Shadowlands should be added, and some of the current weaponry needs tweeking - especially the Maiden Naginata and the Greek Swords.

    III) Shadowlands mobs ACs should be lowered so that excellent weapons such as Abyssal Desecrator, Excalibur, and Permafrost can be used without having the damage reduced to its minimum.
    If devs are concerned this will make the mobs too easy, raise HPs some to compensate.Then keepers will be able to use a much more diverse weaponry using weapons we already have in-game.

    Hope you enjoyed the trilogy
    Last edited by Ruined; Mar 26th, 2004 at 17:46:40.
    We're all in it together.

    Mindful - Keeper
    Abscess - NT

  4. #4
    Well done. That's a really good and well thought out post. It sums up the majority of the weapons in the keeper arsenal succinctly.

    I'm not sure that there was really any reason in including the greek swords though, I mean does anyone actually use them? That's kinda the problem. When I look at the weapons I actually use -all- of them are also regularly used by enforcers. It's as if we have nothing unique to us worth using.

    The excalibur issue remains a major problem. That sword will work wonders on RK, don't get me wrong, but it will not perform that well on Shadowlands I suspect, although if we load up the crit gear, I may be proven wrong, however I believe that a high ql naginata is possibly still going to be better than excalibur.

    On the subject of where excalibur drops? Well, to be honest it could be anywhere. For a while I had my su****ions that it was possibly in pandemonium, but then it was pointed out to me that pande was actually itemised in a previous patch to these recent inferno weapons.

    As a result, it's starting to look more likely that it's inferno but could be on a completely tiny drop rate - 2% drop from a very rarely killed mob could be the answer. Until someone gets lucky we'll just never know.

    Anyways, all in all, I applaud your work here and thank you again.
    Tsunameh
    First Savior of Rimor. Former keeper professional.
    Tsunameh

    Legends sometimes come back to haunt their enemies.

    Playing WoW as a facemelter.

  5. #5
    I want to add in some about the AC's of Shadowlands mobs. First I would like to say that I agree with just about everything you posted. I've been saying the same things myself.

    Now as far as AC's on SL mobs go I think mandating AC's so high has hurt the overall economy of the game. Instead of having a wide variety of weapons that are all decent and viable weapons for all proffessions we are now severaly limited to maybe a few weapons based purely on one simple number. The Minimum Damage number. This number is really the only number that matters because every weapon out there gets pushed to it's very very minimum damage every hit in SL with few exceptions. There are areas and certain mobs where AC's don't seem to be as extreme as most of Sl but still they are fairly high.

    This has taken many many weapons that were considered very good in RK and turned them into medi-ocre weapons at best regardless of Profession or weapon type. X-3's, AD, EoT, Queen Blade, Hellspinner's etc etc etc. The list goes on. These were all very decent weapons before SL and people had varieties to choose from. Sure, you tended to see certain professions in certain weapons but at least you had some choices without totally screwing yourself over.

    Now take an Agent using an QL 200 X-3 up to SL and watch as he hits for 200 damage over and over and over again.

    AC's need to be retuned and rebalanced over all to resestablish a balance between players and Mobs again. Lowered AC's would open up the damage ranges on all these weapons again including the new weapons allowing them to be useful and worthwile weapons instead of total junk that no one would ever touch.

    Take the Sword of Sir tristram for example. This word actually doesn't do too bad TL 4 and 5 on RK. I'd score it higher than you have in your second post. In SL though it's damage is so low even at QL 300 that you'd have to be crazy to eveb consider using it. That's a shame because it's a nice weapon concept and the dev's obviously went to a lot of work to get it made along with the greek swords and all the other SL weapons. After all that work it's a shame that no one ever considers them to be worth anything.

    Instead of creating new weapons why not just re tune Ac's and make all of these weapons that have been worked on already at least usable choices. They don't have to be uber, and some will still be less effective than others. But at least you m,ight see a Keeper using a Tristram sword instead of an FBR. Or maybe an Agent using an X-3. Who knows. All I can say is that there are a plethora of weapons out there that are being trashed and left to rott on corpses all over RK and SL that could otherwise be put to use at some point in a players career. Why make the weapons in the first place if 90% of them are going to be crap to the player base?

    That's your solution to the weapon selection problem right there. And I want to stress that this is not only a fix for keepers but for everyone in the weapon department.

    Just my 2 creds.
    Last edited by Dummah; Mar 26th, 2004 at 08:51:10.

  6. #6

    Great post

    I just wanted to say that you did an excellent job Ruined. Wonderfully thought out and put together post. Some great replies also. Now if the powers the be would read this.....

    Keep up the great work for keepers eveywhere!

  7. #7
    Originally posted by Trajal
    Well done. That's a really good and well thought out post. It sums up the majority of the weapons in the keeper arsenal succinctly.
    Thanks for the positive feedback.

    I'm not sure that there was really any reason in including the greek swords though, I mean does anyone actually use them? That's kinda the problem. When I look at the weapons I actually use -all- of them are also regularly used by enforcers. It's as if we have nothing unique to us worth using.
    I included them for a couple of reasons. First, they were a weapon that had been recently added to the game, specifically for keepers, and they are terrible. At no level during the game are they useful, due to the mediocre damage they do with the requirements necessary to wield them. Adding them to the game in their current state was not helpful to keepers. However, if they are tweaked with much higher damage or the requirements cut in half, they could at least be somewhat useful, as they are one of the few keeper weapons that drops in Shadowlands that has a somewhat conistent drop. Plus they look cool. So, if they are fixed up, it will give people more weapon alternatives.


    Re: Excalibur
    As a result, it's starting to look more likely that it's inferno but could be on a completely tiny drop rate - 2% drop from a very rarely killed mob could be the answer. Until someone gets lucky we'll just never know.
    And if it dropped off a mob that was fairly easy to kill or had some purpose to kill other than finding excalibur, it probably would have already been found. What this means is that it likely has a ridiculously low droprate off a really tough team-requiring dynaboss that is worthless except for excalibur. How exactly are keepers supposed to get a *whole team* to camp a dynaboss with them when its only drop is likely a keeper-specific weapon that has a terrible droprate?

    Anyways, all in all, I applaud your work here and thank you again.
    Again, thanks.
    Last edited by Ruined; Mar 26th, 2004 at 18:36:27.
    We're all in it together.

    Mindful - Keeper
    Abscess - NT

  8. #8
    Originally posted by Dummah
    AC's need to be retuned and rebalanced over all to resestablish a balance between players and Mobs again. Lowered AC's would open up the damage ranges on all these weapons again including the new weapons allowing them to be useful and worthwile weapons instead of total junk that no one would ever touch.
    Yep, totally agree.

    Take the Sword of Sir tristram for example. This word actually doesn't do too bad TL 4 and 5 on RK. I'd score it higher than you have in your second post.
    The problem with the Sword of Sir Tristram is that the damage spread it puts out isn't so hot based on its requirements. The above ratings were based on TL6/TL7 players, however even using a TL4 player, lets take an example:

    Sword of Sir Tristram QL180

    This QL should be equippable by TL4/TL5 players with a wrangle, and probably could be found in Adonis where TL4/5 players hang out if you are lucky. It requires 1081 2he, and the damage spread is 64-375 MeleeAC. Even on Rubi-Ka, that isn't a great damage spread - FBR requires 1040 2he and has a 386-386 damage spread, which would best Tristram. Sword of the Illuminated QL140 with 701 2he requirement also has a better damage spread than Tristram which would require 1081 2he. Inamorata Enel-Thar Naginata QL180 also has a better damage spread and lower 2he requirements. So, I guess the reason I ranked it low on RK is not only because there are better alternatives, but because a TL4/TL5 player wouldn't have the 2he requirement or zone access to get a Tristram with a comparable RK damage spread.


    Instead of creating new weapons why not just re tune Ac's and make all of these weapons that have been worked on already at least usable choices...

    That's your solution to the weapon selection problem right there. And I want to stress that this is not only a fix for keepers but for everyone in the weapon department.[/B]
    I agree that the retuning of ACs to make current weapons more viable is most definitely welcomed and needed. It would be nice to see some variety. More weapons (in addition to fixing the AC problem, not instead of fixing it) would also be nice, too, though. Remember, Keepers are a weapons-based melee class that only has one weapon skill that isn't dark blue - 2h edge. There really is no option to use anything but 2he weapons unless you want to blow all of your IP. And, the fact is, keepers are somewhat limited on their selection of weapons due to the fact that they can only use 2he weapons, many of which have super-slow attack/recharge times - these weapons with long attack/recharges would work better with the Enforcer class which has melee init buffs unlike keepers. That's not to say that these weapons can't be used by keepers, but keepers will likely be hitting real slow if they try to use them at anything less than half, or even 3/4 aggdef. I'm not going to sit here and paint some dreary picture where keepers are garbage and all their weapons suck though, giving them no hope for being a useful part of AO, because thats complete BS. There are quite a few good keeper weapons and it is very possible to tweak your keeper so he is uber - and if you work on your keeper you will most definitely be an in-demand team component. However, more weapons would be nicer and give more variety to the class. So, I think both retuning mob ACs and adding more 2he weapons is necessary, as keepers don't have the ability to try other weapon types without losing loads of IP - hence the 2he weapons class must be made more diverse.
    Last edited by Ruined; Mar 26th, 2004 at 18:30:05.
    We're all in it together.

    Mindful - Keeper
    Abscess - NT

  9. #9

    Re: Great post

    Originally posted by spacecowboy
    I just wanted to say that you did an excellent job Ruined. Wonderfully thought out and put together post. Some great replies also. Now if the powers the be would read this.....

    Keep up the great work for keepers eveywhere!
    Thanks, we can only hope
    We're all in it together.

    Mindful - Keeper
    Abscess - NT

  10. #10
    Great post, It really high lights allot of the problems with the shadow lands. I don't agree with all of it, but I rarely do. However It defiantly deserves a sticky considering the large amount of accurate work that was put into it, and it's extreme relevance considering weapon problems was top priority on our list.
    Last edited by Balrogis; Mar 28th, 2004 at 00:24:18.

  11. #11

    good post

    i dont think the good weapons should be made much harder to get, as casaul solo players have a nightmare of a time trying to get most of them as it is, off course if there where more alternative weapons that where usauble without gimping yourself it could be a different story.

    As for the rest i totally agree we need a wider choice of weapons for all classes and/or the acs need to be reworked. ive been saying for ages why have 1000+ weapons in the game that takes the devs time to make when only 10 of them are used by the players.

    lets hope someone reads this thread.

  12. #12

    Re: good post

    Originally posted by Aethryn
    casaul solo players have a nightmare of a time trying to get most of them as it is
    I wouldn’t call it a nightmare, if you go after it for a few weeks or a month you "can" get a fbr, pop, rop, eqb, gelids even a permafrost un guilded. Not easy, but possible, its just challenging enough to make it feasible. Right now, there are no feasibly attainable shadowlands weapons for keepers or much of any profession really. I think we need quest weapons, more trade skill weapon and our current selection of shadowlands QL 300 weapons rescaled. Its a big problem that needs attention, unfortunately sense the 190+ crowed only makes up 5.6% of their player base I don't for see it getting much attention.

  13. #13

    Quest based weapon .

    Actually (and i know we have lots of quests already) I really like the idea of a quest weapon , working along the lines of the old profession rings . The idea of 'earning' your keeper weapon through various trials (quest) which guarantees a reward at the end is a far far superior method than camping a random mob endlessly - or buying the weapon from someone else who camped a random mob endlessly .
    Psyanyde (AWOL) ^^ Proud to be a part of - Wen-tzu Enclave - Karma is real baby, and it's on our side.

    - NCU error: This nano program can't automatically replace other program -

  14. #14
    Great post, truly a well though out effort.

    Originally posted by Ruined


    Re: Excalibur

    And if it dropped off a mob that was fairly easy to kill or had some purpose to kill other than finding excalibur, it probably would have already been found. What this means is that it likely has a ridiculously low droprate off a really tough team-requiring dynaboss that is worthless except for excalibur. How exactly are keepers supposed to get a *whole team* to camp a dynaboss with them when its only drop is likely a keeper-specific weapon that has a terrible droprate?


    You just described what soldiers have been going through for years to get their augmented hellspinners.

    Dont't get me wrong here, I feel for all the keepers out there, however you guys are not the only ones feeling this weapon choice issue.

    Hopefully FC will take note of this and make some changes that will help out all professions... The lowering of SL mobs ACs would be about the easiest to implement and would help the most players.

    Once again Very good, well thought out post. Cheers!

    [Social] Martyred: everyones health should be at 0, i will adjust this on an individual basis now.
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  15. #15
    Personally i find it odd that they would put it on a Dyna boss with a 2% drop rate like everything else in inferno. There Arent Many high lvl keepers on RK1 that can use Excalibur in the first place.
    Why make this weapon so hard to attain when its clearly not the best keeper weapon. It hasn't been found, that says something.
    But there also is a Slight Possibility that it doesn't drop in inferno or the loot table of the mob that drops it is bugged.
    I remember CZ saying something along the lines of...It (Should) be in game. Would be cool if we could get a Solid answer from someone saying, Yes its in Game because i checked (The Mob) that drops it.
    Lvl 220 Keeper.

    FREEEEEEEEEEDDDDOOOOOMMMMM.

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  16. #16
    I don't think were going to see any reform, the 190+ players make up arround 5.6% of the players, my suggestion is to make a level 60-140 twink and get comfortable.

    Originally posted by Ihateu
    You just described what soldiers have been going through for years to get their augmented hellspinners.

    Dont't get me wrong here, I feel for all the keepers out there, however you guys are not the only ones feeling this weapon choice issue.

    Once again Very good, well thought out post. Cheers!
    Might I also point out Innersanctum has a well played 200 soldier. Camping for a few weeks in cyborg barracks is a bit different then camping a level 250 shadowlands dyna boss for a few weeks. I totally feel for all the weapon based professions out there, however this is the keeper forums, hence why we talk namely about keeper issues

    P.S.
    The bad drop rate on the Spinner is do to the barracks being part of the first ring quest, this screwed up the loot tables, so its actualy more of a bug then poor game mechanics.
    Last edited by Balrogis; Mar 30th, 2004 at 05:32:15.

  17. #17
    I think he means camping OI/OE, which we've done for many an hour of late and had not a single drop for our guild soldiers (Meaning dragging out a large number of people to kill a single mob which has little benefit to many in the group). Also the JAME or Fixer SMG seem to lie in a similar area regarding drop rates - it appears to be a game wide annoyance for many players and an issue that affects us all. The singlemost noteworthy thing FC could do at this point is bring an end to ceasless mindnumbing camping one way or another that we ALL go thru.


    Regarding Excalibur yes not many can use it - I could since it appeared in the database when i was around level 210 and with so few going to benefit i agree also that little is likely to be done about finding it or even confirming it drops. Ancient Adventurer sword rides again i fear.
    Last edited by Psy; Mar 30th, 2004 at 06:41:47.
    Psyanyde (AWOL) ^^ Proud to be a part of - Wen-tzu Enclave - Karma is real baby, and it's on our side.

    - NCU error: This nano program can't automatically replace other program -

  18. #18
    And I'll say again that re designing the AC spreads for SL mobs will fix this rare drop rate on weapons and so on. Make all those other weapons they designed for us and for other professions actually viable choices by not making them hit for minimum damaeg every hit. Let them damage for the full range of their capability or at least near it and suddenly you have a lot of weapons out there that could be viable options.

    Sure, these rare drop weapns will still be better than the readily available ones but that just means they become worth the effort to get. I.e. it sets you apart and gives you a reward for the effort put in, it sets you apart. The way it is now you need one of the rare drops to be the norm. That doesn't give a sense of reward, just a sense of relief when it's over I guess.

    In all I think the keeper profession is well off. In this one issue about weapons I feel we need to get things looked at. And I think it's enough of an issue that it spills over into the rest of the professions too.

  19. #19
    Originally posted by Dummah
    In all I think the keeper profession is well off. In this one issue about weapons I feel we need to get things looked at. And I think it's enough of an issue that it spills over into the rest of the professions too.
    Well off compared to what? A Trader? Fixer? lol...

  20. #20
    Originally posted by Balrogis


    Well off compared to what? A Trader? Fixer? lol...
    You're free to disagree with me Bal but I would appreciate it if you would do so without resorting to ridicule and flaming. Just once I would like to see a thread posted without you dragging it down into the mud. I'm not going to be a part of it anymore.
    Last edited by Dummah; Mar 30th, 2004 at 09:57:33.

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