Engineer "nerf'd" not really "nerf'd" but UnLoved

[____________Psynimph]

I have been playing Ao for a while now (around a month and a half) I know that's not really that long, but I've gotten very acuanted with AO, I have played almost every race and class. I like them all very much and just love playing an Engy. but out of all the class's my Engy has the hardest time lvling since about half the time I'm in missions, my pet is out wandering the halls or running into a wall while I'm being attacked. I made the mistake of putting my points into my pet requirements, which left me very little in other feilds for personal weapons.

This caused for me to die a LOT soloing or in teams if it wasn't well rounded with healers and tanks. To me this is a major problem that needs to be fixed ASAP.

I'm also enjoying the trade skill part of being an Engy, but that too is flawed as I have come to find out that even in weapon smithing there are glitch's to alot of things that should be able to be put together either I get the message that I need a higher skill level to merge them and in that case I buff myself to reach that requirement, then when I try to merge them it does absolutly nothing (not even an error.)

There are more things, but I can't think of them right now, but I will probably add on later.

P.S. If you want to flame me you can it doesn't bother me, but I am just trying to let everyone know my personal opinion on what needs to be addressed, not upgraded or buffed.

[Maitreya]

I can see where your coming from, but my engie actually lvls a lot faster than any of my other chars.

I do the scared little girl tatic, and either barely make the door open, click on tragte, and make the pet attack, or put the pet on hunt.

Yesterday I lvl'd up my engie 9 lvls, which is way faster than i can do with my other chars. But that also involved over twinking, but I'll save that for another post.

[Nasar]

As you said you've only been playin for approx a month but you have quite a bit to learn when it comes to being an enginer on Rubi-Ka.

With regards to trade skills, some of the weapons construct kits are bugged at the moment and not everything can be combined. Such informations is posted on various threads via the community.anarchy-online.com web site forums.

Making weapons is not the only skill that Engies are good for when it comes to AO. Most will come to us now to have armor made, impants or nanos created. Since the cost in making nanos has dramaticly decreased it is a good skill to work on.

Weapon Smithing is not widely used, at least in my experience, and you most valuabe customer will be those of the "Fixer" profession. To learn about how to be a good enginer I recommend http://virral.clansupport.com

Nasar
Level 104 Enginer
President
Vengange Theory, Rubi-Ka 2

[____________Intrepid]

nope high level traders are being nerfed.

I highlyt doubt you are using slayer transference/llts/FFOK 2 of which are being nerfed for us leaving just transference.

Then again my apologies if you are of the level which you use those.

No one argues that engineers are a decent prof levels 1-120. but after 120 they go from being a decent prof though not the top to the very bottem of the barrel bar none.

When my engie was 1-120 i thought we were so damn uber and told everyone that. My how times change things.

[Zane0]

Regardless, I think engineers need serious updates. They havn't got any new material in a darn while... I don't remember the last update.

Sadly, if you really want a good engi you can either go the bot way, which is very frustrating, or go the Ma Engineer way to cast slayer bot transference. I personally think that an Engineer using martial arts is incredibly ridiculous.

Funcom could atleast add a /pet warp command, that would save a whole lot of trouble. But nope, they won't even add a simple few lines of code... :/

[engelstein]

Engineers suffer from the same problem as MPs, topping out around 125. They just suffer more, because all they've got left after the slayer is reflect and crappy weapon skills.

[____________Intrepid]

and they also suffer more in the area they have to go buff begging to get their buffs running.

[Maldek]

lvl 150+


engi = worst teaming class

explain: no good buffs to offer for team mates, medium to low damage output, bad tanking, low hps, bots no longer an option because too slow..........


engi = best solo class IMHO (at least equal with MA)

explain: able to chain cast slayers, MA engi can switch aggro to defensive to drop aggro back to bot, heal up with (self made) treatment kits, have 2K heal (FoL) for emergency..many ways to play with those nasties....

real drawback: no mez (calms) - that one realy hurts still there is a workaround....


>>> and exactly here is our big problem - who does solo from 120 - 200 ?! maybe 5-10% of ppl .....at most. and half of those maybe because of massive frustration because they cant find a team....all others will group because of the simple reason that exp is like 5times faster in a group

[Warlock]

Originally posted by doomgod
lvl 150+


engi = worst teaming class

explain: no good buffs to offer for team mates, medium to low damage output, bad tanking, low hps, bots no longer an option because too slow..........


engi = best solo class IMHO (at least equal with MA)

explain: able to chain cast slayers, MA engi can switch aggro to defensive to drop aggro back to bot, heal up with (self made) treatment kits, have 2K heal (FoL) for emergency..many ways to play with those nasties....

real drawback: no mez (calms) - that one realy hurts still there is a workaround....


>>> and exactly here is our big problem - who does solo from 120 - 200 ?! maybe 5-10% of ppl .....at most. and half of those maybe because of massive frustration because they cant find a team....all others will group because of the simple reason that exp is like 5times faster in a group

Actually I'd disagree with some of your comments.

The chain casting of slayers doesnt take into account the fact that you have to cast the shell _then_ activate it since you cant have multiple shells of the same QL in your inv (in fact you dont seem to be able to have multiple shells of the same bot type anymore...). Obviously if you've raised nano-int then the shell may be insta-cast but theres still a delay since you cant put the shell on the toolbar, and if you havent maxed nano-int.........

I'll admit we're talking seconds tops here (unless you dont have nano-int maxed) but those seconds may be critical (pun intended)

Surely the Eng's ability to solo "(at least equal with MA)" is assuming he _has_ gone MA. This then wouldnt apply to 'weapon' using Engies and are you also factoring outside buffs into your 'solo eng' equasion? If you're outside buffed then 'technically' your teamed because essentially your not relying purly on your own abilities?

This of course all assumes the Eng has struggled his way up to level 150 in the first place

[____________Intrepid]

crats fixers(with GA) MAs Enfs Soldiers at my level all are WAY better at soloing then i am. there may be some others too those are just ones i have noticed. I am sure MPs are not far down the list as well. They are like engies except with a healpet and a inexaustable supply of pets.

I am level 169 BTW

[Sallust]

MPs have absolutely nothing after level 130, every high level MP I know (I'm a slow leveler and I'm holding off getting there for fear of the boredom) only gets into teams as a Mocham's dispenser.

I'm already at the point where when I ask to team people respond with, can you give me buffs? Then won't respond to team requests (I'll normally give out buffs freely to anyone, but I won't give them to people who won't respond to teaming requests).

MPs have it better up to level 130 I think, but then there is nothing to stick around in the game for.

The answer in the last patch was pointless profession rings for both of us and worthless armor (at least for the MP, don't know how good that armor is for Engis) on a Mob my highest level pet could probably never touch.

Anyways all this is to say:

Not just "Engineers" but rather "Pet classes" in general.

[_____Real Kinky Ityn]

Hmm I'm not an engy, but between the scope/VI adjustments, the 4-fists nurf, and the fact that your pets aren't good for anything except holding the door open, I'd say the weakest class in the game just got chain nurfed.

But if any of you need a hug I'll summon a ninja for you, hugs is about all it's good for too.

[RVWinkle]

I don't think enough people read my sig

[____________Intrepid]

Originally posted by Ityn
Hmm I'm not an engy, but between the scope/VI adjustments, the 4-fists nurf, and the fact that your pets aren't good for anything except holding the door open, I'd say the weakest class in the game just got chain nurfed.

3 major nerfs coming to engies in 14.6 or patches scheduled after.

1. FFOK self only affects engies more then any prof

2. LLTS nerf to MA. Affects Ma the most then engie next most. Unfortunately MAs are at top and probably will remain there while engies are already at the botten and going father down.

3. NPC pets. Engies are the only prof without any method of dealing with adds. no roots no calms no charms no heals no HoTs no TMS no massive HP boosts. No emergency damage buffs etc etc etc.

[_____Real Kinky Ityn]

You know what would help alot, esp on point #3, give ENGYS a common trimmer that is basically a PET MONGO, a very high area effect taunt. Then you could at least direct hate away from you and if you had to in solo missions, work the zone in the main room.

Of course that won't do a lot of good if your pet is stuck on the door.

[Warlock]

Originally posted by Ityn
You know what would help alot, esp on point #3, give ENGYS a common trimmer that is basically a PET MONGO, a very high area effect taunt. Then you could at least direct hate away from you and if you had to in solo missions, work the zone in the main room.

Of course that won't do a lot of good if your pet is stuck on the door.

Well the trimmer is only really any good if it keeps to the same skillset as the other trimmers, and even then most Engineers have sub-standard trimmers...

Trimmer effects being un-noticible was brought up by our pros, the reply is that it seems FC mean for us to 'OE' on trimmers in the same way other profs 'OE' on weapons, for their effects to be appreciable. Now if the bot was able to fight as well as a combat class of the same level you may find Engineers doing that, unfortunately until the bot is addressed (pathing, attack rating, damage) then 'OE'ing' on trimmer wont even bring them up to par.

It FC did put it in AND it used a different set of skills then theres going to be some miffed Engineers around unless we get more IP than everyone else :-)

Its better to fix the bot than put stuff in to compensate for it

[_____Real Kinky Ityn]

Give my pet brothers of another professions some love FC =]

I think all pets need better AMS

Of course pathing should be #1 on Funcom's hit list after kicking this beaten dog of an engy class while it's down. They should actually FIX pathing before nurfing you with 4 fists and the scope changes.

The idea of the trimmer is that it would use the same skills and be as effective as MONGO, some sort of +10k taunt, and AOE, so you could send your pet into a main room hit the trimmer and eveything in range would get sucked into it like a black-hole of HATE. It should have a few drawbacks that encourage it's use for mostly solo play, like breaking all calms in the area. What it should not use is skills like PSYCHOLOGY.

[alysanda]

Originally posted by doomgod
lvl 150+


engi = best solo class IMHO (at least equal with MA)

explain: able to chain cast slayers, MA engi can switch aggro to defensive to drop aggro back to bot, heal up with (self made) treatment kits, have 2K heal (FoL) for emergency..many ways to play with those nasties....

Bureaucrats make the best soloers. Calms, AoE calms, snares, roots, fears, ninja and charms keep aggro everywhere but on you. Plus you get an xp buff even if you're all by yourself .
I get lonely when I solo...

[_____________Taldrin]

Originally posted by Intrepid
and they also suffer more in the area they have to go buff begging to get their buffs running.

Allow me to play devils advocate. You do not have to get outside buffs to play! I see far too many engs with the attitude of if they can't get the top buffs to get their highest possible bot they just can't play.

I've played the class since day 1 of AO. When I was leveling to begin with there wasn't a single MP around to cast Mochams/Infuse until I was almost lvl100. Hell I didn't even know that outside buffs existed to help me make higher bots until around level 80.
I spent my days soloing outdoors, doing the odd mission, and joining the odd team. I learnt how to play my profession well, how to cope with the flaws in pathfinding (it was far worse back then then it is now). I rarily died because I didn't rely on my bot. I've teamed with too many lower level engs recently that use their bot to do 100% of their damage. The bot supplements my damage, it isn't my entire damage output.

The people that say we 'top out' at 125.... you mean including outside buffs. Most professions can squeeze into ql200 weps before then. So what's the difference? You won't have ql200 imps and armor on at level 125, still call yourself topped out? Yes you can cast the best slayer assuming you get some outside buffing, but that doesn't mean you've reached the limits of the profession.

Yes we aren't as good in some departments as other classes, but then again why should we be? Too many people moan this class has that and mine doesn't. If FC listen to all this we will eventually end up with every class being almost identical. Play the class for what it is, or play another that has what you want.

[Warlock]

Originally posted by Taldrin
Allow me to play devils advocate. You do not have to get outside buffs to play! I see far too many engs with the attitude of if they can't get the top buffs to get their highest possible bot they just can't play.

I've played the class since day 1 of AO. When I was leveling to begin with there wasn't a single MP around to cast Mochams/Infuse until I was almost lvl100. Hell I didn't even know that outside buffs existed to help me make higher bots until around level 80.
I spent my days soloing outdoors, doing the odd mission, and joining the odd team. I learnt how to play my profession well, how to cope with the flaws in pathfinding (it was far worse back then then it is now). I rarily died because I didn't rely on my bot. I've teamed with too many lower level engs recently that use their bot to do 100% of their damage. The bot supplements my damage, it isn't my entire damage output.

The people that say we 'top out' at 125.... you mean including outside buffs. Most professions can squeeze into ql200 weps before then. So what's the difference? You won't have ql200 imps and armor on at level 125, still call yourself topped out? Yes you can cast the best slayer assuming you get some outside buffing, but that doesn't mean you've reached the limits of the profession.

Yes we aren't as good in some departments as other classes, but then again why should we be? Too many people moan this class has that and mine doesn't. If FC listen to all this we will eventually end up with every class being almost identical. Play the class for what it is, or play another that has what you want.

Well to be fair you dont really need outside buff until you hit the level 100 title cap (at approx level 80) so its no suprise you didnt 'miss' them.

You say you coped and kudos to you for that, but look at it this way, any way you cut it the bot IS our main weapon, just looking at our skill colours and nanos tell you that, any other prof with blue or worse weapon skills will have attack nanos - except us. That immediately tells you that the bot has to do the work.

Sure you can forego your tradeskills at lower levels and raise MA, or shotgun or heavy weapons and do damage, but thats not how the class is _supposed_ to play (again look at your skill colours - big hint there). Engineers who do that often come back and say stuff like 'forget the bot' or 'the bot adds to my damage not the other way around' but they chose to play 'outside the mould'.

So you hit title cap, and your bot goes from orange, to yellow, to green, to grey and you have to take easier and easier missions, the xp coming in gets lower and lower and you level slower and slower - are we having fun yet?!

Now I make a point of being self buffed (but then I'm only level 52) but having been through the relatively 'easy' 50 title cap I _know_ I'm going to need outside buffs next cap just to stay in the game (not be uber, just 'normal').

Then you add the fact that we lose our bots when we log (remembering that they are our 'primary weapon'). How would any weapon using prof like it if their primary weapon dropped into their inventory on logout! I think it would be a different story then!

Now I dont have a problem with needing outside buffs, what I do have a problem with is that we have no buffs any other profession needs/wants. Sure MP's say that after level 12x they are just seen as a buff machine (which is probably why they charge so much :-) ) and I suspect Traders think the same thing but there are just no buffs an Engineer has that anyone else (even the Engineer normally) needs.

Combat nanos aside (Auras/AC/Damage/Reflect) Fixers have better B&E buffs, who wants a trap disarm buff? and IIRC Docs or Traders better better cham/pharm and hardly and Engineers actually have EP since SI and PM are an IP sink (which is probably how you can raise your combat skills in the first place) and who uses pistol anyway? oh yeah Engineers do (since crats dont bother)

I have 2 of these buffs and I have never been asked for them.

I think the 'topping out' problem is 50% as you describe in that you can cast everything at that point. However since you have the best pet (Eng/MP/Whatever) your combat ability stops there (since again this is the 'primary weapon' all the levels after that just result in you needing less outside help to do it. The problem is though is that the game continues to scale beyond QL200 'stuff' and so while your 'uber' at 12x your no more effective at 150 or 200 but the other players are ramping up the mission difficulty.