1hb vs 2hb, a study

[Arinia]

Don't beat me up. I needed to start it's own thread for this because it's alarming me. Discussion was started in THIS thread.

I did some research. Doh.

All QL200 weapons.
QL200 Hammer 1-906(100) 2.01/7s
QL200 Alloy 1-366(350) 2/2.5s
QL200 Pipe 3-222(382) 1.5/1.55

I used 600 attack on all values as a midrange attack.
I show results with 600 melee init and 1000 melee init.
I used 100% aggro when appropriate, spreadsheet only takes this into account.

First, I used the spreadsheet outlined in thre thread above.(http://home.austin.rr.com/shakti/weapeval.xls )

I would tend to disagree with these results because they are not consistent with gameplay. But they are here nonetheless.

Hammer
600 Melee init: Damage 33-5052, 398.10 DPS.
1000 Melee init: Damage 33-5052, 512.70 DPS.

Pipe
600 Melee init: Damage 44-1259, 250.8 DPS
1000 Melee init: Damage 44-1259, 250.8 DPS (same, yes, capped at 1s minimum I believe on attacks)

Alloy
600 Melee init: Damage 33-2057, 447.6 DPS
1000 Melee init: Damage 33-2057, 447.6 DPS (capped again I'm guessing)

Next, I used the damage calculator at antiguardians.org

Hammer
600 Melee init: Damage 3-2265, 153.23 DPS
1000 Melee init: Damage Same

Pipe
600 Melee init: Damage 8-555, 144.6 DPS
1000 Melee init: Damage Same

Alloy
600 Melee init: Damage 3-915, 158.27 DPS
1000 Melee init: Damage Same

Aniguardians data seems a lot more consistent with gameplay (I've mever gotten a 5k hit on a mob, but 2200 sounds more likely), although init caps seem to happen a lot faster (already capped at 600 melee init).


Short answer. Even a single 1hb Alloy looks really really good in terms of DPS. You're not going to double your damage with 2, but you are going to make up the differential if these calculations are to be believed.

The only thing I'm concerned about is one of the main reasons that I went 2hb in the first place: I don't like minimum damage. I was told that 1hb would run into min damage.

I'm also concerned about IP spenditure, i.e. my 2hb is capped for title at 81. I don't think I'll ever raise it again until I'm damned sure that I don't want to go 1hb.

Any thoughts from people who really use 1hb?

I would have used it from the start but I was under the impression that it was not viable at all. I don't like being a cookie cutter.

As suggested in the thread above, I'm going to take a ride to home in BS and look at some enforcers tonight.

[Kinkstaah]

I can weild all three of those weapons.
And I have, of course tested them out to see how they go.

First of all, the pipe is 100% junk. Bin it. Delete it. Dont even sell it to a vendor. Dont loot it. It's crap. Get the idea?

Those stats arent correct. They WOULD be correct if you didnt factor AC in.

But things DO have AC.

Hammers are good, because crit buffs dont mean all that much. That is a good thing. People DO overrate the effectiveness of high crit weapons simply because of the fact that most hunt with MA crit buffs on. Which unbalances the natural "balance" of weapons against one another.

[Kinkstaah]

I just threw a Rider Warblade into the AOGuardian site to see.

Btw 1-554(140) 2.5/2.5

Warblade
600 Melee init: Damage 3-1385 250.6 DPS

[Arinia]

First of all, the pipe is 100% junk.

I noticed that

Also, I did all these without AC and without crits at all.

Sooooooo...... Mike, you tried all 3 and you are staying with the alloy/rider, but you'd dump the rider if you had an IP reset for multi-weild, I'm guessing.

Again, my main concern is min-damage. I fear it. A lot. Excepting that, I'm going to go pick up an alloy staff and think about trying it out.

[Kinkstaah]

Not sure. I'd *maybe* go either way. I dont like riders. but I sure as hell don't like ONE viable weapon, and a total piece of junk in the offhand.

[Megabio]

Originally posted by Kaerem

Again, my main concern is min-damage. I fear it. A lot. Excepting that, I'm going to go pick up an alloy staff and think about trying it out.

If you keep up with overequipping 1h blunt enough than you will be okay. However, the main problem is that AC does STILL exist.


You are, while killing a QL 200 mob, taking away anywhere from 300 to 400 damage a hit which cannot just be considered as a 'modifer' but as cold hard minus damage.
~Chris

[Paffy]

It is indeed against AC 0 and is consistent to the damage you get against leets at backyard.

Would you like us to add there an extra field like:

Opponent AC against the dam type: <value> ?

Someone who knows 100% sure has to tell me first though that does 100 ac reduce damage by 10 and 1000 by 100 or how it goes? That is something I remember hearing from top of my head...

Also we would need to know how the "min" damage is handled, ie even with weapon that has damage range 1-4(1) WILL do damage even against AC 10 000 so any information about this would be appreciated too.

You can mail your suggestions and information to auno@antiguardians.org or contact him ingame.

Zarch and bunch of other chars between lvl 5 and 140

PS. Someone also said once that 1hb is nice for 1-40, 2hb nice for 40-120 and 1hb again nice after that or something similar...

Comments Mikebond?

[Kinkstaah]

Bit too hard to calculate. Things so dynamic.

Best way is to ask someone like me, who clearly knows everything and has tested it all

Generally the ONLY slope is that Fast/Weak weapons get weaker as you get higher. Thats it... there's no other "uber" weapon for a particular level range, just that slow and soft gets worse as you go along.

Min damage is Min damage, but it is modified by ATK value - Again the formula is something I can't work out as it's 11:15am, and I havent slept yet

The best way to get info (imho) is just to plain ask someone "How does your weapon X go?"

[Downsizr]

We could just use you MikeB if you can use dual 1HB and 2HB vs. someone that will wear variable AC : 1000 - 2000 - 3000.
The logs would give us a good idea of what's going on with fixed melee init, fixed attack and variable AC.

Sludgee pointed out that he's hitting min dmges a lot at 120+ with dual 1HB.

[Kinkstaah]

You actually never hit for min damage (which is generally single digits) with any weapon, you just hit very, very, very low.

It's a common misconception that annoys me

[Downsizr]

Well, can 10-20 pts be considered as min dmge sincee your attack factor modifies the sheer min dmge of the weap anyway ?

[Kinkstaah]

Min, is always 1. (or whatever is listed)

[______________Obitus]

Originally posted by MiKEBoND
Bit too hard to calculate. Things so dynamic.

Best way is to ask someone like me, who clearly knows everything and has tested it all

Kink is the best judge of melee weapons in the game today, just ask him, he'll tell ya.

[Thyrra]

dang it, i hit for 4 dmg on a hammer once.

i'll take that as min damage, thank you very much.

[Arinia]

So.... Let's say AC is -1 point for every 10 pts of AC.

AC of 3000 is -300 damage.

Meaning if you hit for 5k once in 7 seconds with a hammer you are going to be hitting for 4700.

If you hit for 1k 5 times in 7 seconds with 1hb, you are going to be hitting only for 3500 damage.

So. Even if the damage over time is the same with 1hb/2hb vs 0 AC, 2hb clearly wins because of the way AC works.

1hb damage over time has to be significantly better than 2hb for it to be viable, because AC is getting subtracted on each hit.

Duh. Why didn't I think of that in the first place?

[Bonegnasher]

Kaerem, that is a good point, but there are other factors. They may not be enough to justify the change, but they should still be considered.

Assuming both 2hb and 1hb have the same buffs running, their chance of crit is the same. So 1hb is like throwing the dice 7 times where 2hb is like throwing it once.

Also, there is the damage range. If the 2hb hits for 1-4000 per hit (numbers totally random...) and the 1hb hits for 1-600 per hit, it changes things.

Basically 2hb is like putting all your eggs in one basket. It is a really big and strong basket, but it could still drop.

For example, in a decent team hunting mid oranges for fun, I will hit a mob about 8 times before it dies, the 2hb will hit it 1 or sometimes 2 times. Those hits are usually much more noticeable, but when the 2hb hits min damage or misses it is also that much more noticeable and lets the mob get 2 more hits on its target.

I'm not saying that either is better worse, as I believe that in different situations each weapon type has its advantages (aside from those damn protector executioners...Psy Mod??). I am just suggesting that there are more variables at work than are usually counted.

Those damage calculators are nice, but they are not the end-all be-all. Remember, statistics can be manipulated by anyone so that with the same information, everyone can come up with a way to "prove" that their way is best.

Oh well, that's all.

-Ox

(Please recognize that I do not claim to have any true numbers, experience, or knowledge that supports these ideas. They're just idle thoughts.)

[Thyrra]

one interesting thing that can doesn't necessarily come up to often is a situation where you are damage capped on your 1h weapon, or close to it, and the mob you are hitting has a high reflect shield on.

in this situation a 1h weapon becomes a sore in your behind, because you can do more damage to yourself than a mob.

it does make things more interesting though.

[____________Illhyana]

I fought Gima in the arena yesterday. He dual wields alloys, and is like a 156lvl enf and dual wields alloys. I am a 83 enf have 2300 AC (wtb QL141/142 elite helm), and have 4502hp self buffed.

Fight went a little something like this.

You are attacking Gima.
You are attacked by Gima.
You absorb 362 points of melee damage.
Gima hits you for 1137 points of Fast Attack Damage.
Gima hits you for 1356 points of Brawl Damage.
Gima hits you for 779 points of melee damage.
Gima hits you for 1455 points of Sneak Attack Damage.
Mongo Bash is terminated...
Artic Cloak is terminated...
...
...
...
Your remains will be available in 60 seconds.

Hope this info helps for your tests.

[Bierbauch]

Originally posted by Illhyana
I fought Gima in the arena yesterday. He dual wields alloys, and is like a 156lvl enf and dual wields alloys. I am a 83 enf have 2300 AC (wtb QL141/142 elite helm), and have 4502hp self buffed.

Fight went a little something like this.

You are attacking Gima.
You are attacked by Gima.
You absorb 362 points of melee damage.
Gima hits you for 1137 points of Fast Attack Damage.
Gima hits you for 1356 points of Brawl Damage.
Gima hits you for 779 points of melee damage.
Gima hits you for 1455 points of Sneak Attack Damage.
Mongo Bash is terminated...
Artic Cloak is terminated...
...
...
...
Your remains will be available in 60 seconds.

Hope this info helps for your tests.

2HB against high AC mob / player. 1HB against low AC mobs / player.

1HB user have it much easier against a Rollerrat (I am talking about 180+ rats). 2HB user have it easier against Enf mobs ...

[Thyrra]

Originally posted by Bierbauch
2HB against high AC mob / player. 1HB against low AC mobs / player.

1HB user have it much easier against a Rollerrat (I am talking about 180+ rats). 2HB user have it easier against Enf mobs ...

beer, the wisdom in this.

we have options and are not limited to one weapon type, just as we are not limited to one or two nano lines.