OTPC: Omni-AF ship shot out of the sky

[Kahava]

It is indeed possible to disrupt the insurance system. It is indeed possible to disrupt any and all computerbased system. It is indeed possible to defeat any and all locks, doors, alarms, you name it. Everything man-made can be man-unmade.
The requirement are time and patience.

You are correct, neither OT nor OT-RK are known for randomly destroying their own ressources for no purpose. Neither are clammers or neuts, to give a local touch.
However, as I said cetain systems need to be tested against the real thing. After all, you'd not like to go into combat with some equipmennt which just might decide to blow up in your face rather than kill your opponent, now would you? Or have your Yalm decide to quit working while at max altitude? Or have your various nanoprograms decide to do the opposite of what you expect them to do?
That's why us enginneers (try to) test our products thoroughly. (RUR has recently proven why that's a necessity.. )
Anything in the line of either some hugely powerful ray cannon or a teleportation device will require at least one fullscale test.

Most testing is done in simulators and on scale models. This covers most of the variables that need testing. However, weather and other environmental influences cannot be accurately modeled, even on Rubi-Ka.
So you see, there can be very good reasons to use a ressource to assure the correct functionality of some other ressource. Most particularly when it is as powerful as something that'll remove a ship completely.
No, I'm not 100% certain that it was OT(-RK) doing a test run. I just don't discount it out of hand, particularly given the wording in that article..
Your mileage may vary, of course.

[Stillian]

We all know our reporters are often very...loyal. The wording of the article strikes me as typical journalism. Exaggeration in the name of a reward.

[Nyadach]

Omni-Tek is not known for the destruction of it's own property, I remind you.

Blowing up a certain tower block in ent with people in it?

[Dabblez]

That is a low blow Nyadach. It is distasteful and deeply hurtful to suggest the terror attack in Omni Ent was self-inflicted. There is no evidence to back the claim that we deliberately killed our own people, a claim which frankly flies in the face of reason. With nothing to support this accusation besides an ancient, deep rooted prejudice against us, all it show your own utter scorn and disdain for all things Omni-Tek.

Just hours ago you were posting about how much more tollerant and accepting Omni-tek seems to be towards the Neutrals (http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...85#post4137785) The next miniute you take the first opportunity to make an unfounded, unprovoked and rather spiteful dig at Omni.

You ask Omni and Clan to be more toleratant of the Neutrals. Maybe you should practice what you preach and in turn treat us with more tolerance too.


Savoy

[Berael]

There is no evidence to back the claim that we deliberately killed our own people, a claim which frankly flies in the face of reason.

November 02 29129
A notum mine near Omni-2 collapses, trapping three hundred automatons, eighty-five bio-engineered non-sentient creatures, and seventy-two Atrox workers. Omni-Tek refuses to launch a rescue-operation, claiming time and cost concerns, and a limited chance of success.

November 03 29129
At a press-conference, an Omni-Tek spokesperson utters the infamous lines "They're only Atroxes" and "We're very concerned about our equipment", in reference to the trapped miners.

November 17 29129
Volunteer workers - battling both the elements and a growing contingent of Omni-Tek security personnel who are doing everything they can to stop the rescue efforts, citing "safety reasons" - clear out the collapsed mine and reach the trapped Atrox miners. But it's too late: they are all dead. Tempers flare when on-site medical personnel claim that the trapped miners would probably be alive if an immediate effort had been made to clear the mine. OT authorities disagree. Shocked and angry workers are escorted from the site at gunpoint, and forced to return to their jobs.

Historical Records

A refusal to attempt a rescue is essentialy a condemnation to death. This additionaly shows that at some level OT considers parts of its work force expendable, including human breeds.

[Dabblez]

Berael,

It's now 29480. The events you mention happend 351 years ago. 351 years! Empires have risen and fallen, nation have evolved from being slave-owners states to mature democracies in less time than that.

Look at Omni now, there are plenty of Atrox in postions of authority, some sit with me each month at the Omni Board of Directors meetings. You cannot compare us now with how things were three and a half centuries ago.

OT must be doing pretty well if you have to go back 351 years to dig out some dirt on us!


Savoy

[Berael]

*shruges*

Alright how about the fact that Omni-Tek engineered at least one species with a planned obsilesence: The Nanomage. This fully sentient human breed was created knowing full well that without the concentrated supply of notum the environment of Rubi-Ka provides they would be wiped out of existance. From there Omni-Tek proceeded in activities that will eventualy kill the Nanomages as a species: mining notum and shipping it off world.

Despite the small efforts of some OT detactments in attempting to create an environmental suit for the nanomage, it doesn't actualy free them from their notum dependence, just allows them interstellar mobility. Nanomages are still doomed.

In my mind it would seem that if Omni-Tek really was a changed corperation in the several hundred years since the mine incident above, it would have been working hard to not just give nanomages mobility but to end their dependency. If not all nanomages, at least the ones in the employ of the company. Right now though it would still seem that OT views them as expendable.

Next, more than a month ago the speech of the acting CEO of OT on Rubi-Ka was going to give a speech that was interupted by the Dust Brigade. During that event, the guards hurried to get the CEO out but did little for the crowd of people there. The Dust Brigade have been known to use permadeath weapons, and it is not illogical to say that anybody there could have been killed. As the event played out it seemed that the crowd had to basicaly fend for itself, especialy after everybody coming to the speech was checked for weapons. In this situation OT security showed a unhealthy disregard for the lives of their own employees, which would also ring similar to the events of 350 years prior.

It is certainly -possible- that OT forces could have tested the 'stolen' weapon on OT forces. That possibility does not mean that was the case though, and since there is a lack of evidence to suggest who the culperates were... well all we can do is speculate till better information comes in.

[Astera]

You ask Omni and Clan to be more toleratant of the Neutrals. Maybe you should practice what you preach and in turn treat us with more tolerance too.

Come with me to the dark side. *evil laughter*

[Dabblez]

Berael,

All studies thus far indicate that notum is infinite. No, it does not make sense, but there is a lot of stuff that does not make sense on Rubi-Ka, it just is.

The Nanomage Liberation Front are the only ones that claim notum is finite. If you really believe the NLF's claim and if Wolf Brigade actually have notum towers, then you are the one guilty by her own admission of working towards genocide.

But really, I don't want to argue with you or be an Omni-Tek apologist. I don't regard Omni-Tek's behaviour as saintly, but then I don't see anyone else acting much better than us. Greed and violence are endemic on Rubi-Ka. I've seen people from most factions - mostly Clan and Neutral actually - hunt down Yuttos and Rhinomen for profit or sport. These are peaceful, sentient races, not just some dumb animal. I've seen people from all factions gun down their shopkeepers and no one saying a word about it. Ours is an ugly world. OT is no better or no worse than anyone else.

But my original point was not about how great OT is. My point was simply to reproach Nyadach for preaching tolerance and on the other enjoying a little bit of spiteful and unproven Omni-bashing on the side.

Savoy

[Berael]

I'm not arguing my own beliefs here cut and dry, Savoy. I'm simply pointing out that speculation as to the possibility that OT would test a weapon on its own people is not out of the question or illogical as you suggested above. As for Nyadach... well he will have to stand on his own two feet.

With regards to notum: I'd be interested if you could point me in the direction of these studies because every observation i've done (i.e. dug a hole in the ground and take out some notum then come back to the hole) have led me to believe that notum is not infinite, simply just present in such massive concentrations that it would seem so. I've been researching Unukh Mar's Notum Time Theory but as of yet I have been unable to find it in full or more than 2 volumes of the 56 he wrote on the subject.

[Xaun]

I have to agree with Berael here. Speculation is only that. The posibility exists. Especially considering we have not heard any release of casualty counts... cargo manifests etc.. For all we know two rival departments within OT were competing for a contract and decided to take it out on each other.. again.. just wild random speculation.. But the current coverage as I see it leads me to believe that OT should be looking internally for solving this mystery.

[Nyadach]

There is no evidence to back the claim that we deliberately killed our own people

Ok, possibly a bit harsh to say it was Omni-Tek. Better to say people within Omni-Tek then. Since we all know fine well now Maelfus was a Duster...thereby people within Omni-Tek did this against other Omni-Tek citizens. We all saw them, we all know fine well the went around assinating various leaders of organisations. They attacked Omni-Tek and were Omni-Tek citizens themselves. They deliberately killed fellow Omni citizens.

You ask Omni and Clan to be more toleratant of the Neutrals. Maybe you should practice what you preach and in turn treat us with more tolerance too.

We more than tolerate the actions of Omni and the Clans. Do we not have an open border policy? You can shop as you like? But if people are able to do this against fellow citizens of Omni-Tek, what would they do to the rest of us? This isn't an anti-Omni arguement, this is as much about Omni-Tek searching it's ranks and getting its house in order.

[Stillian]

We more than tolerate the actions of Omni and the Clans. Do we not have an open border policy? You can shop as you like? But if people are able to do this against fellow citizens of Omni-Tek, what would they do to the rest of us? This isn't an anti-Omni arguement, this is as much about Omni-Tek searching it's ranks and getting its house in order.

Let's be honest here, we could apply that to any faction upon this planet.

[Zemkarik]

What I would be a bit concerned about is not so much that a new weapon is being designed that can do such things. I would be more concerned about what other break throughs this tech might create.

Sure yes the thought of a weapon that could shoot into a city and take out an important building with one shot is worrysome. But just as soon as their is a weapon being designed there are armors and shields being designed to protect against such a weapon.

This weapon if it is found to be a feasable weapon to use in a war, will result in many new techs being developed.

[Vixentrox]

This destruction of Omni-Tek property is horrible. And people dare to think we would destroy an item of property which we spent our credits on. Truly amazing.

It was probably insured.

[Twistshot]

And if it wasnt insured, those ships cost what 57.5 million a pop when they were new? They are atleast 20-25 years old now, figure in their cargo capacity of over 370 Km cubed and the odds that it was a fully remote model, eh, drop in the bucked compared to the notum it has moved during its life.

Odds are that the ship was even older than that, then you figure in the data that you can only get from a live fire at a live target and not just a painted red x on a hunk of rock and well, what is that kind of data worth.

[Xhairs]

Twist is getting close there. If all Omni-Tek wanted was to testfire some secret weapon then there are plenty of old ships that could act target. How ever, the one that got "vanished" was fairly new, at least according to my sources.

Also, you can insure a ship, but you can´t insure the crew. For Credits that is. And a crew for a ship takes time and Credits to train. And as we all know, time is credits. So For the "OT shoots up their own just for the hell of it" theory to be even semi-plausible, you would have to have Omni-Tek (a company interrested in making Credits) testing a weapon on a fully functional ship (costing a good chunk of Credits) that will have to be rebuilt (taking time, which is Credits) and get a new crew (which costs Credits) and train them (taking time, which is Credits).

Not saying it can´t happen. there are detattchments in OT that would go to such extremes. Just saying it seems very implausible with the evidence we have at hand.

[Kahava]

Also, you can insure a ship, but you can´t insure the crew. For Credits that is. And a crew for a ship takes time and Credits to train. And as we all know, time is credits. So For the "OT shoots up their own just for the hell of it" theory to be even semi-plausible, you would have to have Omni-Tek (a company interrested in making Credits) testing a weapon on a fully functional ship (costing a good chunk of Credits) that will have to be rebuilt (taking time, which is Credits) and get a new crew (which costs Credits) and train them (taking time, which is Credits).

Well, you're supposing that the ship did indeed carry a crew.
Even if it did, there's no shortage of employees and most all of us can easily be taught how to fly a freighter - it's not all that hard, really. Some implants, some serious tutoring and off you go. In a few flights you'll be competent enough, given the cargo crews I've seen..

Noone has said that "OT shoots up their own just for the hell of it," a point has been made that it might have been a test of one kind of equipment or other. As I've said before, testing things in a simulator is all well and good, only it's not enough for some types of equipment - weapons and teleporters.
Or would you prefer to into battle with untested weapons?
Simulators are man made, set up by some operator to specifications delivered by the manufacturor.
In other words, it has flaws from the start (nothing man made is perfect), it is operated by a humanoid, which is errorprone, and working to prove what the manufacturor wants proven.
Just how long do you think it took to weed out the bugs in our various nano programs? And they still fail, sometimes causing death in the process.
RUR has recently shown that extensive testing is a very good idea - and what can occur if such testing doesn't happen..
Do you think that OT are aware of this and taking appropriate measures?

Another thing, the stuff about how everythig is about creds. Yes, it is. However, a ship that has ferried even one load of notum has paid for itself. More than one run and it's turned quite a profit, so if that ship was fitted with certain equipment, some kind of sensors or something like that, to be used as a test target then it'd not be a loss, creditwise.

Again, it's not a farfetched, extreme and weird idea to test things in a live environment. In fact, in this case the test could also have included the rapid response teams and the procedures invoked in these kinds of accidents.. after all, a SAR mission got under way, intel groups are all over the place (hehe, yeah right.. intel..)

[Xhairs]

Ok. Convince me then why Omni-Tek would testfire a secret weapon at a ship in fairly good repair over a public area like Pleasant Meadows with potentialy hundreds, or even thousands, of witnesses. When instead they could slave-rig one of the old ships we have just waiting to be decomissioned and 'vanished' it out over the uninhabitable areas, or out over the Sea of Rome.

And trust me when i say, when you test fire secret weapons you want that particular event to stay as secret as possible, and not have people running all over the area asking questions, wheter it be a drill to them or not.

[Kahava]

Ok. Convince me then why Omni-Tek would testfire a secret weapon at a ship in fairly good repair over a public area like Pleasant Meadows with potentialy hundreds, or even thousands, of witnesses. When instead they could slave-rig one of the old ships we have just waiting to be decomissioned and 'vanished' it out over the uninhabitable areas, or out over the Sea of Rome.

New ships just might have various kinds of gear that can't be retro-fitted to older ships.
You'll want to test against the best, after all, to ensure as good a chance as possible that you'll be able to make it work against whatever opponent you expect to face. If a weapon can beat the best you have then it'll also beat the worst. The reverse isn't guaranteed.
Noone ever (seriously) tested anti-personnel weapons aginst trees or rollerrats, you know, they found other ways.

And trust me when i say, when you test fire secret weapons you want that particular event to stay as secret as possible, and not have people running all over the area asking questions, wheter it be a drill to them or not.

Not necessarily. The first ones, yes, until you've removed most of the bugs.
You can always know a test engineer's kid in the early grades at school, he's the one that counts: "ten, nine, eight, seven, six, five, four, three, two, one, oh sh1t.."

A public test can be done for a variety of purposes, to bolster morale on your own side, to weaken morale on the opposition's side, to scare possible advesaries from doing something rash..
A friend of mine told me that when he was at the Academy they still taught him what one of the greatest generals of all times said many millennia ago: "A good general never looses a battle, a great general never has to fight a battle."
That means that publicity is a very important tool in warfare. It's tied for first place (alongside logistics) when talking operational and tactical issues but it stands alone at the top strategically.